Flying UNDER a MOA question

[Ozone]

I've been given a practice IFR scenario where I can either divert around a collections of MOA's for an extra 30-40 miles, or fly right under the MOA's (they start at 8000MSL, and one could fly at 6000MSL) and save 30 miles.

Part of scenario involves total failure of GPS somewhere along the route. VOR's still work.

For the 30 miles extra, I would say it's worth diverting around and having access to VOR's and airways in case of equipment failure. FYI, the route under the MOA's would be about 45-50nm from the closest VOR in any direction.

That said, with GPS and the ability to file direct, what would you do in real life?

 

[WDD]

Real Life - get vectors from ATC. Your altimeter is still working.

For the IFR check ride, fly the VOR's.

 

[luvflyin]

I've been given a practice IFR scenario where I can either divert around a collections of MOA's for an extra 30-40 miles, or fly right under the MOA's (they start at 8000MSL, and one could fly at 6000MSL) and save 30 miles.

Part of scenario involves total failure of GPS somewhere along the route. VOR's still work.

For the 30 miles extra, I would say it's worth diverting around and having access to VOR's and airways in case of equipment failure. FYI, the route under the MOA's would be about 45-50nm from the closest VOR in any direction.

That said, with GPS and the ability to file direct, what would you do in real life?

Looks like your probably talking about the Crypt MOA's. What are the 'under' and the 'around' routes you would file?

 

[Ozone]

Looks like your probably talking about the Crypt MOA's. What are the 'under' and the 'around' routes you would file?

It's the truman MOA (A and B)- both have a floor of 8000. Therefore, I 'd file 6000 in real life. That altitude would give decent backup coverage from the surround VOR's (right?)
KTBN to KSTJ is the route, with failure of GPS somewhere along that route.

direct: KTBN BARTI KDMO KSTJ
around: KTBN TOMAT COU FRANC ANX LASSO STJ KSTJ

 

[luvflyin]

It's the truman MOA (A and B)- both have a floor of 8000. Therefore, I 'd file 6000 in real life. That altitude would give decent backup coverage from the surround VOR's (right?)
KTBM to KSTJ is the route, with failure of GPS somewhere along that route.

Looks like you typoed KTBN. Anyway, I'd do what you would do in real life. I think whoever is having you do this scenario, CFII or DPE would expect the same. And yes, it looks like there is enough VOR coverage around their to make it pretty easy to transition to VHF Nav.

 

[Pugs]

I've been given a practice IFR scenario where I can either divert around a collections of MOA's for an extra 30-40 miles, or fly right under the MOA's (they start at 8000MSL, and one could fly at 6000MSL) and save 30 miles.

Practice like you'll fly it for real. File the shortest route. if you lose the GPS let the controller know and they'll give you a vector (and often even when you don't want one! )

 

[flyingron]

MOAs have squat to do with airways. Airways frequently go right through them (and restricted and prohibited areas for that matter).

 

[aterpster]

Real Life - get vectors from ATC. Your altimeter is still working.

For the IFR check ride, fly the VOR's.

Lots of places in the west with no radar at 6,000 or even 8,000.

 

[Clip4]

I've been given a practice IFR scenario where I can either divert around a collections of MOA's for an extra 30-40 miles, or fly right under the MOA's (they start at 8000MSL, and one could fly at 6000MSL) and save 30 miles.

Part of scenario involves total failure of GPS somewhere along the route. VOR's still work.

For the 30 miles extra, I would say it's worth diverting around and having access to VOR's and airways in case of equipment failure. FYI, the route under the MOA's would be about 45-50nm from the closest VOR in any direction.

That said, with GPS and the ability to file direct, what would you do in real life?

In real life, I flying under. Even if the GPS fails, you have options including ATC vectors and VORs. I would be prepared to discuss both the old (L) and (H) VOR service volumes and the new (VL) and (VH) volumes on the practical test (Section 1 AIM).

 

[Palmpilot]

If the GPS failure happens in an area that has mountains or other obstacles high enough to be a factor, then flying direct to a VOR from the point of failure at the originally-assigned altitude might not be safe. In that case, it might be necessary to squawk 7700 and use your emergency authority to do something that ordinarily wouldn't be allowed under IFR, such as climbing into an active MOA, or dead reckoning along the originally-cleared course with frequent checks against VOR cross radials.

By the way, did the scenario as given specify that the MOA is active? If it's not, then my understanding is that IFR is allowed within it. (Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.)

 

[PastZTL]

I would recommend fly under. If your GPS fails, ATC can give vectors. If you need to climb for VOR reception, ATC can modify the floor of the MOA to allow a higher altitude.

 

[Velocity173]

If the GPS failure happens in an area that has mountains or other obstacles high enough to be a factor, then flying direct to a VOR from the point of failure at the originally-assigned altitude might not be safe. In that case, it might be necessary to squawk 7700 and use your emergency authority to do something that ordinarily wouldn't be allowed under IFR, such as climbing into an active MOA, or dead reckoning along the originally-cleared course with frequent checks against VOR cross radials.

By the way, did the scenario as given specify that the MOA is active? If it's not, then my understanding is that IFR is allowed within it. (Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong.)

Yeah, an inactive MOA means nothing for IFRs. Even active, if appropriate seperation can be maintained between participants and non participants, IFRs can go through. Don’t know if any that allow with participants (mixed) in it but that all depends on the LOA with the military and the FAA. Ours (Beaufort) all IFRs had to be routed around during active times. Can’t tell you the number of times I saw aircraft show up at the border and were completely surprised (and irritated) to get routed around the MOA.

 

[PaulS]

You can fly in MOAs vfr, although it is generally bad form to do so without talking to atc. If I lost GPS in an MOA ifr, I would maintain my course and tell atc. Changing course on an ifr flight without a clearance to do so is wrong and at a minimum can get you violated. This is a perfect case to let atc help you. Losing GPS is not an immediate action required scenario pretty much ever. Take your time, figure out what needs to be done, then work it with atc.

 

[PastZTL]

Yeah, an inactive MOA means nothing for IFRs. Even active, if appropriate seperation can be maintained between participants and non participants, IFRs can go through. Don’t know if any that allow with participants (mixed) in it but that all depends on the LOA with the military and the FAA. Ours (Beaufort) all IFRs had to be routed around during active times. Can’t tell you the number of times I saw aircraft show up at the border and were completely surprised (and irritated) to get routed around the MOA.

All of our MOAs required IFR traffic to be routed around unless it was above/below the active altitudes. Most of our MOAs were adjacent to airspace owned by other facilities. Coordination with those facilities was required prior to the airspace going active. That virtually eliminated the surprises at the boundary.

 

[Velocity173]

All of our MOAs required IFR traffic to be routed around unless it was above/below the active altitudes. Most of our MOAs were adjacent to airspace owned by other facilities. Coordination with those facilities was required prior to the airspace going active. That virtually eliminated the surprises at the boundary.

Yeah that’s the policy we had as well. Couple years back I was at my brother’s tower (Abilene) and center had B-1s in Lancer MOA. Once they left, they called tower on the landline and approved an IFR Bonanza Abilene was working, through the MOA. The MOA was active in that it was during its active times but center apparently has approval through their LOA with Dyess to allow non participants through. Where I worked, that never would have happened because our schedule (ATO) from the MAG was highly inaccurate. No way we could count on participant aircraft to show up or not show up during scheduled times. Therefore, all non participants were rerouted even without aircraft not in the MOA.

As I always say, no SUA is created equal. Procedures and ATC policies can vary greatly depending on what part of the country you’re operating in.

 

[WDD]

Lots of places in the west with no radar at 6,000 or even 8,000.

Can't assume that this is in the west.

• If it's not, then continue with ATC vectors.
• If it is the west with no radar, inform ATC. They'll either tell you to turn toward a VOR, or continue with your HSI and compass until you get GPS back and/or they can pick you up on radar.
• But, that's real world. For the test answer, I'm still going to say fly the VOR's since you said you're going to kill my GPS.

 

[luvflyin]

Can't assume that this is in the west.

• If it's not, then continue with ATC vectors.
• If it is the west with no radar, inform ATC. They'll either tell you to turn toward a VOR, or continue with your HSI and compass until you get GPS back and/or they can pick you up on radar.
• But, that's real world. For the test answer, I'm still going to say fly the VOR's since you said you're going to kill my GPS.

Hmm. When the OP, @Ozone said "...Part of scenario involves total failure of GPS somewhere along the route..." I took it as the CFI told him 'I'm gonna cover yer GPS sometime during the flight. Now I'm wondering if the scenario was like there was a Notam out with a GPS outage. Or the RAIM isn't gonna give reliability. @Ozone ?? Was GPS unreliability known prior to departure in your scenario?

 

[luvflyin]

Yeah that’s the policy we had as well. Couple years back I was at my brother’s tower (Abilene) and center had B-1s in Lancer MOA. Once they left, they called tower on the landline and approved an IFR Bonanza Abilene was working, through the MOA. The MOA was active in that it was during its active times but center apparently has approval through their LOA with Dyess to allow non participants through. Where I worked, that never would have happened because our schedule (ATO) from the MAG was highly inaccurate. No way we could count on participant aircraft to show up or not show up during scheduled times. Therefore, all non participants were rerouted even without aircraft not in the MOA.

As I always say, no SUA is created equal. Procedures and ATC policies can vary greatly depending on what part of the country you’re operating in.

Yeah. When I was at Twentynine Palms KNXP, we'd release pieces of the R2501 complex to the Center based on scheduling, but also on current activity if the planes/artillery/rocket launchers,using it got done early or cancelled their mission. The adjacent MOA's weren't there back then, but the concept is the same and would just be planes.

 

[Palmpilot]

Can't assume that this is in the west.

• If it's not, then continue with ATC vectors.
• If it is the west with no radar, inform ATC. They'll either tell you to turn toward a VOR, or continue with your HSI and compass until you get GPS back and/or they can pick you up on radar.
• But, that's real world. For the test answer, I'm still going to say fly the VOR's since you said you're going to kill my GPS.

We know it's not on the west because he told us so. The point is that once he passes his checkride, he will be allowed to fly IFR all over the world, not just in the relatively flat areas where he will take his checkride.

My understanding is that ATC does not clear pilots off of published routes unless they are able to provide radar monitoring, which would seem to make the concern about radar coverage moot for this scenario, except that either ATC or pilots can experience lost comm. Also radar can go down. Pilots need to know how to deal with such situations safely.

 

[luvflyin]

.....My understanding is that ATC does not clear pilots off of published routes unless they are able to provide radar monitoring, which would seem to make the concern about radar coverage moot for this scenario, except that either ATC or pilots can experience lost comm. Also radar can go down. Pilots need to know how to deal with such situations safely.

Radar isn't always required but there are rules about when it can be done.
c. Random routes.
1. When not being radar monitored, GNSS-equipped RNAV aircraft on random RNAV routes must be cleared via or reported to be established on a point-to-point route.
(a) The points must be published NAVAIDs, waypoints, fixes or airports recallable from the aircraft’s navigation database. The points must be displayed on controller video maps or depicted on the controller chart displayed at the control position. When applying nonradar separation the maximum distance between points must not exceed 500 miles.
(b) Protect 4 miles either side of the route centerline.
(c) Assigned altitudes must be at or above the highest MIA along the projected route segment being flown, including the protected airspace of that route segment.

 

[35 AoA]

Is the hidden question here: can I fly under the confines of a MOA? Of course. Or are you saying that you wouldn't be able to maintain route MOCA/MRA/MEA while doing so, and the question is if that is important?

Also, why are you diverting? Weather? In flight emergency? That would make a difference to me.

 

[RussR]

I face this exact scenario weekly, flying from the OKC area to the southwest into Texas. Quite a few MOAs.

I ALWAYS opt to go under (at 6000 or 7000 for me depending on direction), unless weather doesn't cooperate. If the MOAs are cold I'll go higher, but in the plane I'm using for these trips, there's nothing to gain by going higher while adding another 30 nm to my route. I'll tell this to ATC as well - if the MOA goes hot and at my altitude they want to give me a re-route, I'll ask for lower, and almost all of the time it works great.

In my opinion, the checkride should be flown as you would do the day after your checkride.

 

[wayne]

Go under or even through the MOAs. If they are not active it's like they don't exist. Even if they are active they may not be using all of the altitude; depends upon what they are doing. I've had ATC allow me through portions of an active MOA while IFR and heard them do the same for others. That part of it wasn't being used so we could pass through there.

So, you could plan for 8,000 or even 10,000 and if ATC notifies you that it's active you can then descend to 6,000 or go around. Some days 6,000 is better, some days 10,000 and around is better; turbulence or cumulus clouds from 4,000 to 8,500.

As the saying goes, there are three flight plans, the one you file, the one the system gives you and the one you end up flying. File what you want, start with what they give you and fly with what you and ATC negotiate.

 

[flyingron]

If you're flying IFR in controlled airspace, they won't allow a route through a conflicting MOA. This entire thread is rather spurious. Now if you want to ask if a VFR should blast through a MOA, then some of this might apply.

 

[RussR]

This entire thread is rather spurious.

??

We're precisely talking about flying IFR, and how to deal with MOAs in your way when the only choices are 1) go around the MOA, or 2) pick a different altitude that does not conflict with the MOA. Obviously both are up to negotiation with ATC, but that's a routine discussion at least for me.

 

[Ozone]

Hmm. When the OP, @Ozone said "...Part of scenario involves total failure of GPS somewhere along the route..." I took it as the CFI told him 'I'm gonna cover yer GPS sometime during the flight. Now I'm wondering if the scenario was like there was a Notam out with a GPS outage. Or the RAIM isn't gonna give reliability. @Ozone ?? Was GPS unreliability known prior to departure in your scenario?

No Cause of GPS failure given. Simply that after leaving the airport, all you have is VOR and compass after that point.

 

[luvflyin]

No Cause of GPS failure given. Simply that after leaving the airport, all you have is VOR and compass after that point.

In that case I'd agree with most, maybe all above, (I ain't rereading the whole thread), file normally. Don't file as if you would always file as if you think something might fail every flight.