Flying by the numbers ?

So I have a questions for fly the airspeed indicator crowd.

The scenario is you operate into a very short runway over a 50 ft obstacle close to the threshold. The aircraft is a basic VFR airplane without alternate static source, a VSI or GPS or other ground speed reference data. While descending near the airport, and totally unknown to you, your static source becomes blocked

What would this condition do to your airspeed indications? What would clue you in to this has happening. Would you stall spin in? Would you run off the runway or have to go around? If you went around, would you suffer departure stall and how would you prevent it?
 
Clip4 said:
So I have a questions for fly the airspeed indicator crowd.

The scenario is you operate into a very short runway over a 50 ft obstacle close to the threshold. The aircraft is a basic VFR airplane without alternate static source, a VSI or GPS or other ground speed reference data. While descending near the airport, and totally unknown to you, your static source becomes blocked

What would this condition do to your airspeed indications? What would clue you in to this has happening. Would you stall spin in? Would you run off the runway or have to go around? If you went around, would you suffer departure stall and how would you prevent it?
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Nothing. If I’m descending near the airport, that means I’ve already climbed into the pattern. There wouldn’t be enough error to cause problems.
 
Clip4 said:
So I have a questions for fly the airspeed indicator crowd.

The scenario is you operate into a very short runway over a 50 ft obstacle close to the threshold. The aircraft is a basic VFR airplane without alternate static source, a VSI or GPS or other ground speed reference data. While descending near the airport, and totally unknown to you, your static source becomes blocked

What would this condition do to your airspeed indications? What would clue you in to this has happening. Would you stall spin in? Would you run off the runway or have to go around? If you went around, would you suffer departure stall and how would you prevent it?
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I’m not sure it’s a fair question. It kind of makes the same assumptions as what you refer to as the “fly the airspeed crowd” but in reverse.

They are making the assumption that the “fly visually crowd” completely disregards airspeed. Your question makes the assumption that the “fly the airspeed crowd” completely disregards visual references.
 
Dave Palacios said:
i don't think i made my point clear, i apologize for that. I don't think model or speeds is the point. it just seems that it all changes as it happens, if you act as a robot in an environment that is changing it just isn't going to work out, well maybe if you only fly in smooth air it might seem to. just my opinion. And I appreciate your input. I do get it though, with beginners you got to give them something to go on to start.
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Not quite understanding. If the recommended normal final approach speed is 75-80 mph, then that's what you set up on final. Not 65-70 and not 80-90. On a typical day with benign winds, you should be able to hold airspeed within 5 mph during the final approach segment right down to the flare. If its a gnarly day, I might shoot closer to 80 mph than 75 mph to account for gusts. There might be more airspeed variation down final (maybe 75-85 mph), but the target mean airspeed is going to be 80 mph. You just can't let it wander all over the place, because that's asking for trouble. If you come over the fence at 90-100 mph, you better have a lot of runway ahead of you, because it's going to float forever. Controlling airspeed on approach is not robotic, it is something that the pilot maintains with constant adjustment, and it is fundamental to good aircraft control. For instrument flight, learning the appropriate power/pitch numbers is essential and allows the setup of various flight regimes at defined airspeeds quickly with minimal fiddling. I find that pilots that have difficulty controlling airspeed on takeoff or landing approach are often not using trim adequately.

My unfortunate C172 ride as a naive passenger was a crazy high and fast approach, resulting in a 2000 foot float down the runway, a paste-down with a full wheelbarrow, followed by a harrowing one-brake stop with the nosewheel turned opposite and skidding for another 1980 feet, stopped 20 feet from the far end of the runway. The pilot had no clue what was happening. We had a completely flat right brake. If I had not feathered the left brake and turned the nosewheel oppositely we would have run off the side of the runway. If the brakes had been operable, MAYBE the pilot would have got away with it. But sloppy airmanship puts you just one more issue away from a full-blown accident.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I’m not sure it’s a fair question. It kind of makes the same assumptions as what you refer to as the “fly the airspeed crowd” but in reverse.

They are making the assumption that the “fly visually crowd” completely disregards airspeed. Your question makes the assumption that the “fly the airspeed crowd” completely disregards visual references.
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My point - if airspeed is your be all and end all, you will be flying this pattern far too slow while trying to figure out why your altimeter is not indicating descent.
 
Salty said:
We seem to have a lot of fatalities from stall spins. Don’t know of nearly so many due to unstable approaches.
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But there are a lot of runway overrun accidents from adding 10 knots for the wind, 5 knots for the wife and kids, and 5 more knots for good luck.
 
Clip4 said:
So I have a questions for fly the airspeed indicator crowd.

The scenario is you operate into a very short runway over a 50 ft obstacle close to the threshold. The aircraft is a basic VFR airplane without alternate static source, a VSI or GPS or other ground speed reference data. While descending near the airport, and totally unknown to you, your static source becomes blocked

What would this condition do to your airspeed indications? What would clue you in to this has happening. Would you stall spin in? Would you run off the runway or have to go around? If you went around, would you suffer departure stall and how would you prevent it?
Click to expand...
This is where knowing your pitch/power combinations is gold.
 
Clip4 said:
My point - if airspeed is your be all and end all, you will be flying this pattern far too slow while trying to figure out why your altimeter is not indicating descent.
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Your point appears to be based in invalid assumptions.
 
chemgeek said:
But there are a lot of runway overrun accidents from adding 10 knots for the wind, 5 knots for the wife and kids, and 5 more knots for good luck.
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Not looking at the asi isn’t gonna fix that.
 
Salty said:
Not looking at the asi isn’t gonna fix that.
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Actually it probably will. VFR or IFR, once you know an instrument is wrong, isn’t disregarding the best thing to do? Even cover it if you can so it’s not a distraction?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually it probably will. VFR or IFR, once you know an instrument is wrong, isn’t disregarding the best thing to do? Even cover it if you can so it’s not a distraction?
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The post I responded to had nothing to do with an incorrect instrument.
 
midlifeflyer said:
When someone has landing issues, it’s often about chasing airspeed, so I cover the airspeed indicator to make this point. Things calm down immediately.

It was done to me during a checkout in a Tiger years ago. I thought it was brilliant and have been using the technique ever since. When I was doing primary instruction, I used the “cover the primary instruments” technique for maneuvers as well as landings. And ever since it was done to me, no student of mine soloed until they landed that way.
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When I taught the instructor course for KC-135s we would have instructor candidates fly a no airspeed/ no AOA approach and landing. It hammers home the importance of using known pitch/power. It was usually their best approach of the program. The airspeed indicator is only one way of judging whether you are on speed and can be a distraction for many pilots from what is actually causing their speed to increase or decrease.
 
PaulS said:
A friend of mine flies f18s. He said they fly by aoa, not airspeed on approach. I find once I’m used to an airplane and power settings, airspeed falls right into place. Wind is only a factor for power settings, (making the runway), and in the flare.
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Part of my avionics upgrade is an Alpha Eagle AOA indicator.

I flew with AOA in the T-38 and A-10. IMO, it is best way to fly in the pattern.
 
midlifeflyer said:
When someone has landing issues, it’s often about chasing airspeed, so I cover the airspeed indicator to make this point. Things calm down immediately.

It was done to me during a checkout in a Tiger years ago. I thought it was brilliant and have been using the technique ever since. When I was doing primary instruction, I used the “cover the primary instruments” technique for maneuvers as well as landings. And ever since it was done to me, no student of mine soloed until they landed that way.
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So the question is why is the trainee chasing airspeed? Dollars to doughnuts it's because they don't have the plane trimmed properly at the proper approach attitude (for which the airspeed is the proxy). If the plane is properly configured for final approach and trimmed, then the aircraft is going to naturally seek the proper attitude and target airspeed if left alone. Without proper trim, a ham-handed pilot is going to handle the yoke like a handsaw trying to maintain the proper approach speed (attitude) because the aircraft is trimmed for something inappropriate and will continuously diverge from what the pilot wants it to do. A pilot expert in type will set a known attitude and rpm value, trimmed to neutrality, that will result in the proper approach attitude and airspeed in pretty much one go.

It is certainly good training to learn how to do takeoffs and landings without the benefit of the ASI, but I wouldn't think that ignoring the ASI should be standard practice for approach to landing, especially in a shorter runway situation or gusty crosswinds.
 
chemgeek said:
It is certainly good training to learn how to do takeoffs and landings without the benefit of the ASI, but I wouldn't think that ignoring the ASI should be standard practice for approach to landing, especially in a shorter runway situation or gusty crosswinds
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I agree.
 
Just gonna leave this right here....



I wish my first instructor was more like this. My heartrate still goes up when practicing stalls and I still don't like doing them without a CFI. I have another thread somewhere about that story.
 
KE5BM said:
I wish my first instructor was more like this. My heartrate still goes up when practicing stalls and I still don't like doing them without a CFI. I have another thread somewhere about that story.
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I once gave a flight review to a CFI. When I asked him to to a power-off stall, he recovered by going into a deep dive that looked like a rollercoaster and actually produce a small amount of negative G. Our conversation after that one:

Me: Are your students afraid of stalls?
He: Yes, almost all of them.
Me: I think I know why.

I was lucky, My primary CFI was great about them. He wanted to make sure I was comfortable practicing them solo - in a Traumahawk.
 
TCABM said:
Just flew 1.7 with a CFI I’ve flown with occasionally before, working on power off landings.

One thing he noticed was I was really busy abeam the numbers, resulting in airspeed excursions +|- 10kts at one point. On the next lap instead of waiting for the altimeter to hit pattern altitude to level off and get to the new power setting, then re-trim for level flight at the desired airspeed, he recommend at TPA-50’ to just go to my power setting the resulted in 80kts and not touch anything else.

So I tried it. Abeam the numbers it was carb heat, throttle back, flaps 10, and watched it settle back to 80kts. Nailed 75 turning base, 70 turning final, and hit my aimpoint on the centerline each and every time.

That small change (reduce power 50’ below TPA) made such a huge difference in everything I did afterwards that it’ll likely become my new technique.

But without him watching the little things I was doing in the first 5 seconds after being abeam the numbers, I could have never figured it out on my own.
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I stumbled upon a similar insight. Was goofing around in a 182 and decided to fly a few circuits without trimming. The plane flew great with trim set for takeoff. Just set power to go up, down, or level. Airspeed takes care of itself. Barely touched the yoke except to rotate, turn, and flare. I fiddle with the trim a lot less now.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I stumbled upon a similar insight. Was goofing around in a 182 and decided to fly a few circuits without trimming. The plane flew great with trim set for takeoff. Just set power to go up, down, or level. Airspeed takes care of itself. Barely touched the yoke except to rotate, turn, and flare. I fiddle with the trim a lot less now.
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When going for my IFR, my CFII said I was not challenged enough. So he started randomly say "trim circuit failed" and make me fly the approach with trim set where ever (even full up or down). Once I was partially comfortable handling that, he started to play with the trim while I was on the approach.

Tim
 
KE5BM said:
I wish my first instructor was more like this. My heartrate still goes up when practicing stalls and I still don't like doing them without a CFI. I have another thread somewhere about that story.
Click to expand...
Almost everyone feels that way at first. The cure is spin training. Once you see what comes after, and learn how easy it is to recover, it won't bother you.

After having flown aerobatics for many years, I sometimes have trouble on BFRs. The CFI usually wants to see a very exaggerated recovery. But acro teaches you that a small reduction in AoA can restore lift. You also learn that unloading the wings to go to zero G allows the aircraft to accelerate with minimum drag.

An example is the Immelman, a half loop up with a half roll to upright at the top. In an underpowered aircraft, it is not unusual to finish the roll well below stall speed. You get dinged on points if the nose drops, so the finish becomes a delicate pull of the stick to feel for some lift while the aircraft accelerates unloaded.

After you fall out of a few dozen maneuvers in weird attitudes, you become confident that the plane wants to fly and will recover if you let it. A good drill is to stall or spin, then let go of the controls and see what happens. Hint: it will recover just as well as you can. When in doubt, center everything and let the plane seek its own attitude, then deal with that.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
After having flown aerobatics for many years, I sometimes have trouble on BFRs. The CFI usually wants to see a very exaggerated recovery. But acro teaches you that a small reduction in AoA can restore lift. You also learn that unloading the wings to go to zero G allows the aircraft to accelerate with minimum drag.
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No aerobatics, but I often get students who are taught that way. When I do, I demo one to show how little needs to be done. When I do, I have to be aware of making sure they understand the AoA increase needs to be definite, though not extreme.
 
chemgeek said:
So the question is why is the trainee chasing airspeed? Dollars to doughnuts it's because they don't have the plane trimmed properly at the proper approach attitude (for which the airspeed is the proxy). If the plane is properly configured for final approach and trimmed, then the aircraft is going to naturally seek the proper attitude and target airspeed if left alone. Without proper trim, a ham-handed pilot is going to handle the yoke like a handsaw trying to maintain the proper approach speed (attitude) because the aircraft is trimmed for something inappropriate and will continuously diverge from what the pilot wants it to do. A pilot expert in type will set a known attitude and rpm value, trimmed to neutrality, that will result in the proper approach attitude and airspeed in pretty much one go.

It is certainly good training to learn how to do takeoffs and landings without the benefit of the ASI, but I wouldn't think that ignoring the ASI should be standard practice for approach to landing, especially in a shorter runway situation or gusty crosswinds.
Click to expand...
Another issue is not changing pitch based on attitude, then seeing effect on airspeed. They look at the airspeed and try to adjust pitch to get the right airspeed.
 
Pinecone said:
Another issue is not changing pitch based on attitude, then seeing effect on airspeed. They look at the airspeed and try to adjust pitch to get the right airspeed.
Click to expand...
Yep. This is the ASI equivalent of chasing a VOR needle.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I stumbled upon a similar insight. Was goofing around in a 182 and decided to fly a few circuits without trimming. The plane flew great with trim set for takeoff. Just set power to go up, down, or level. Airspeed takes care of itself. Barely touched the yoke except to rotate, turn, and flare. I fiddle with the trim a lot less now.
Click to expand...
Generally speaking, trim is very poorly taught.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Almost everyone feels that way at first. The cure is spin training. Once you see what comes after, and learn how easy it is to recover, it won't bother you.

After having flown aerobatics for many years, I sometimes have trouble on BFRs. The CFI usually wants to see a very exaggerated recovery. But acro teaches you that a small reduction in AoA can restore lift. You also learn that unloading the wings to go to zero G allows the aircraft to accelerate with minimum drag.

An example is the Immelman, a half loop up with a half roll to upright at the top. In an underpowered aircraft, it is not unusual to finish the roll well below stall speed. You get dinged on points if the nose drops, so the finish becomes a delicate pull of the stick to feel for some lift while the aircraft accelerates unloaded.

After you fall out of a few dozen maneuvers in weird attitudes, you become confident that the plane wants to fly and will recover if you let it. A good drill is to stall or spin, then let go of the controls and see what happens. Hint: it will recover just as well as you can. When in doubt, center everything and let the plane seek its own attitude, then deal with that.
Click to expand...
Makes a lot of sense !
 
At the risk of hijacking the thread, how does one go about searching for a place to do spin training?
 
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