Flying an non-IFR certified aircraft legally in IMC?

bflynn said:
Only other suggestion I'd have is to talk to your FSDO - they're here to help, right? You might be allowed some kind of special ferry permit based on validation of certain instruments. Or you might not. Either way, I think this route would be a lot safer than to fly formation with another aircraft in IMC.
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You can ask, but the answer is going to be "not only no, but hell no." Or maybe, "You want to do what? :rofl:"

You are just not going to get a ferry permit for a formation flight in IMC where the wing aircraft isn't equipped/certified for IFR. The FAA generally limits special flight permits to Day VMC. While for some situations you might get permission to go night or IMC on a ferry permit, they are not in a million years going to authorize that in a plane not equipped and certified for IFR flight -- too much risk for the FAA to accept.
 
gprellwitz said:
The letter of authorization from the FAA when it got its experimental certificate will specify the rules under which it is legal to be operated, IIRC. I recall discussion here about how to add IFR certification when it wasn't originally certified that way.
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It's the operating limitations issued with the experimental airworthiness certificate. If we're talking Ex-Amateur Built, the specimen limiations usually issued say that you can operate IFR if equipped as required by 91.215. LOAs are issued to operators/pilots not to aircraft.

The thing the op might have been getting an inkling is that there is an exception for operating IFR in VMC in certain training operations.
 
flyingron said:
The thing the op might have been getting an inkling is that there is an exception for operating IFR in VMC in certain training operations.
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Yes, there is, but it applies only to instrument flight training and practical tests, and only in VMC.
5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.

A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, §§ 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413. An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.

B. Type Certificate Data. Appropriate type certificate data will indicate whether the aircraft meets the requirements for IFR operations.

1) Section 91.9(a) prohibits aircraft operations without compliance with the operating limitations for that aircraft prescribed by the certificating authority.

2) Section 91.9(b) prohibits operation of a U.S.‑registered aircraft requiring an airplane or rotorcraft flight manual unless it has on board a current and approved airplane or rotorcraft flight manual or approved manual material, markings, and placards containing each operating limitation prescribed for that aircraft.
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As such, it would not apply to the OP's situation. It's real application would be to get your IR training and checkride in a Diamond DA-20, non-IFR-certified LSA, etc. Note, however, the requirement to have all the equipment and tests in the listed regs, so it's not a complete pass even then.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Because the visual reference (the other aircraft) isn't VMC. You'd still be operating IMC in a VFR aircraft. The flight plan would have to be IFR, and both aircraft equipped IAW 91.205 (d).

Also what would the pilot do if he loses sight of lead? It happens.
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You just listed Problems 1 and 2 with the scenario...
Problem #1: even if you can see the other plane, you may not be able to see the horizon, the ground, or anything else. You have to just mirror Lead, which means of course you can't be looking at whatever instruments you might have. Good luck with that.
Problem #2: you lose sight of Lead. Maybe it's night, and they lose electrics. Maybe there's heavy precip, or turbulence forces you apart, and you lose sight of each other. Good luck with that.
We all know formation flying in clouds is done by the military, but each element has individual IFR capability, for obvious reasons.
I wouldn't even want to be on tow in IMC, with no gyros... even if I could see the towplane, and knew we were still attached.
The only kind of emergency I could possibly imagine that would "require" that, or the OP's scenario, would have to be so dire that my own life, let alone the FAA's blessing, wouldn't matter. I think the FAA might agree, so they are very unlikely to allow it.
 
flyingron said:
It's the operating limitations issued with the experimental airworthiness certificate. If we're talking Ex-Amateur Built, the specimen limiations usually issued say that you can operate IFR if equipped as required by 91.215. LOAs are issued to operators/pilots not to aircraft.

The thing the op might have been getting an inkling is that there is an exception for operating IFR in VMC in certain training operations.
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Thanks, that's the term I couldn't remember!
 
Ron Levy said:
You can ask, but the answer is going to be "not only no, but hell no." Or maybe, "You want to do what? :rofl:"

You are just not going to get a ferry permit for a formation flight in IMC where the wing aircraft isn't equipped/certified for IFR. The FAA generally limits special flight permits to Day VMC. While for some situations you might get permission to go night or IMC on a ferry permit, they are not in a million years going to authorize that in a plane not equipped and certified for IFR flight -- too much risk for the FAA to accept.
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You're reading way more into what I wrote than is there. We all agree the idea of formation flight in IMC is absurd.

My suggestion is to talk to the FSDO about the possibility of a ferry permit to go from VFR underneath to VFR on top to get clear of a persistent layer. To do that, you do not necessarily need to have a full IFR instrument set, you need the ability to climb and descend through a layer. I suspect weather parameters would be involved too as to the ceiling height, cloud tops and the weather at the destination.

Or the FSDO might say "nope, can't be done", which is actually what I expect. In which case, look for that 1 day a month with sucker holes. But then again, I can't think of a single place in the entire country that ALWAYS has a layer. So it's probably a bogus discussion anyway.
 
MachFly said:
Scenario, I need to get a non-IFR certified aircraft out of an airport that has an overcast layer over it. Would it be legal if I fly in close formation with an IFR certified aircraft to get through the overcast layer?

I can stay close enough to the IFR certified aircraft to fly visually and he can fly on instruments.


P.S. I realize that some of you will say that this can be dangerous, I do not want to argue the regarding the safety of such a flight, I am only trying to find out if something like this is legal.
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So................ How did that flight go... that you didn't fly.:dunno:;)
 
bflynn said:
You're reading way more into what I wrote than is there. We all agree the idea of formation flight in IMC is absurd.

My suggestion is to talk to the FSDO about the possibility of a ferry permit to go from VFR underneath to VFR on top to get clear of a persistent layer. To do that, you do not necessarily need to have a full IFR instrument set, you need the ability to climb and descend through a layer. I suspect weather parameters would be involved too as to the ceiling height, cloud tops and the weather at the destination.

Or the FSDO might say "nope, can't be done", which is actually what I expect. In which case, look for that 1 day a month with sucker holes. But then again, I can't think of a single place in the entire country that ALWAYS has a layer. So it's probably a bogus discussion anyway.
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I can tell you with certainty the FSDO will not allow it.
 
flyingron said:
The thing the op might have been getting an inkling is that there is an exception for operating IFR in VMC in certain training operations.
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Yes, except it's wouldn't be for training purposes.


bflynn said:
My suggestion is to talk to the FSDO about the possibility of a ferry permit to go from VFR underneath to VFR on top to get clear of a persistent layer. To do that, you do not necessarily need to have a full IFR instrument set, you need the ability to climb and descend through a layer. I suspect weather parameters would be involved too as to the ceiling height, cloud tops and the weather at the destination.
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The problem with this is it needs to be done in advance, and in advance such a thing would not be needed as the aircraft can be just flown out of the field when it's VFR.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I can tell you with certainty the FSDO will not allow it.
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I suspect so too. I can tell you with certainty that they will not allow it if they are not asked.

I'm still waiting to hear this mythical airport that never has a clear day.
 
bflynn said:
I suspect so too. I can tell you with certainty that they will not allow it if they are not asked.

I'm still waiting to hear this mythical airport that never has a clear day.
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Must be in LA.
 
I've never heard of civil aircraft flying formation IMC at all, I suppose it's happened at some time or other, no doubt involving highly trained formation pilots.

The military does fly formation IMC, but I've never heard of an IMC formation takeoff. Military airplanes typically take off single ship in IMC and use their on board sensors to join up in flight.

And having flown formation IMC myself, I can tell you that a cloud can get so thick that you literally cannot see the airplane that is just off your wingtip. When that happens you have to perform what is called a 'lost wingman' procedure. It's not an easy evolution, and can't be performed close to the ground. Like in a marine layer.

Which means that the wingman better be ready to fly IMC on his own.

Forget the FARs, what you are proposing is pretty much suicide.
 
Arbiter419 said:
Relevant

In the words of Duke Nukem, "balls of steel"
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Note a couple of John's comments:

In 17 years of flying with the team I have declared "#2 Lost Wingman" twice. Each time I lost sight of the lead aircraft just ten feet away. The Lost Wingman procedure is pre-briefed and has the #2 or #3 pilots turning 30 degrees away from the lead aircraft and descending at least 500 feet. While this is happening, the lead is introducing the "Lost Wingman" to ATC as a new IFR flight. You never go into the soup without being IFR current and with the appropriate charts and plates at the ready.
As long as all pilots are IFR current and their aircraft are IFR equipped it is considered a formation IFR flight. ATC only talks to the leader and the two wingman listen on their second radio to keep updated.
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JimNtexas said:
I've never heard of civil aircraft flying formation IMC at all, I suppose it's happened at some time or other, no doubt involving highly trained formation pilots.

The military does fly formation IMC, but I've never heard of an IMC formation takeoff. Military airplanes typically take off single ship in IMC and use their on board sensors to join up in flight.

And having flown formation IMC myself, I can tell you that a cloud can get so thick that you literally cannot see the airplane that is just off your wingtip. When that happens you have to perform what is called a 'lost wingman' procedure. It's not an easy evolution, and can't be performed close to the ground. Like in a marine layer.

Which means that the wingman better be ready to fly IMC on his own.

Forget the FARs, what you are proposing is pretty much suicide.
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We did section takeoffs into IMC when I was flying T-45's due to it lacking a radar, but yeah, a 10 sec interval or streaming radar trail is by far the preferred method for us as well. Good point about lost sight.....and I also wouldn't want to be a wingman in IMC without a set of IFR instruments. I probably get vertigo about half the time I'm flying wing in IMC, and it is important to be able to have a reference that you can glance at periodically to recage your brain....not to mention knowing where you are in the sky, where you are headed, where on an approach you are in relationship to the field, etc.
 
I did a lot of section takeoffs in A-6's and F-4's, but they were prohibited in the F-111, where it was radar trail only. All I can say is it was a whole lot easier getting the group airborne and joined up when we took off by two's than by one's. And for the ultimate radar trail departure SNAFU, remember when the Thunderbirds tried it out of Andrews after the Armed Forces Day show in May 2000 -- buzzed the Veep's house and nearly nailed an MD-80.

In any event, I know of no civilian aircraft equipped for RTD's, but I've done several formation IFR flights (including a section takeoff into the goo) in light planes with properly trained and qualified pilots after a proper briefing including lost wingman procedures. And I'd do it again with the right people.
 
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Ron Levy said:
I did a lot of section takeoffs in A-6's and F-4's, but they were prohibited in the F-111, where it was radar trail only. All I can say is it was a whole lot easier getting the group airborne and joined up when we took off by two's than by one's. And for the ultimate radar trail departure SNAFU, remember when the Thunderbirds tried it out of Andrews after the Armed Forces Day show in May 2000 -- buzzed the Veep's house and nearly nailed an MD-80.

In any event, I know of no civilian aircraft equipped for RTD's, but I've done several formation IFR flights (including a section takeoff into the goo) in light planes with properly trained and qualified pilots after a proper briefing including lost wingman procedures. And I'd do it again with the right people.
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I've never done an IMC formation departure but I have flown an instrument approach in formation. The wx was fairly benign though and we did brief lost wingman. Both of us were IFR equipped and current (as is required).
 
Machfly...."oh I wish it true I wish it true I wish it true"....sure does not make it true
:( :(
 
Ron Levy said:
I did a lot of section takeoffs in A-6's and F-4's, but they were prohibited in the F-111, where it was radar trail only. All I can say is it was a whole lot easier getting the group airborne and joined up when we took off by two's than by one's. And for the ultimate radar trail departure SNAFU, remember when the Thunderbirds tried it out of Andrews after the Armed Forces Day show in May 2000 -- buzzed the Veep's house and nearly nailed an MD-80.
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This isn't my own story, but that of a friend's. Deployment fly-on to Iwakuni, something like 10 United States Marine Corps Hornets (eyyyyyuuuuuuuuuut) proceed into a squal line on the fearless wing of their Skipper. 30 seconds later, every single one of them is blind in IMC, all trying to get away from one another, basically doing an aerial fleur-de-lis. Nobody had a clue where anyone else was, and people start doing crazy stuff like split S's and full burner immelmans to get the hell out of the problem. Everyone eventually gets safe on deck, and the tales of who did what come out in the club over beers.

I agree that section herd goes are much more comfortable in bad weather, as a radar trail with much more than 3-4 guys just gets unreasonably strung out, you might not really know who you have locked up, and by the time you break out, it takes about 10 mins for -4 (or greater) to ever get joined. That and one guy's 10 seconds isn't always the same as the others, especially if one guy lights the cans right at 10 seconds while the other guy kisses off, runs up to mil, then lights the blowers another 5 seconds later or something like that.
 
JimNtexas said:
I've never heard of civil aircraft flying formation IMC at all
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Trust me, such things are done by civilians too :wink2: (with proper training, of course).
 
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35 AoA said:
I agree that section herd goes are much more comfortable in bad weather, as a radar trail with much more than 3-4 guys just gets unreasonably strung out, you might not really know who you have locked up, and by the time you break out, it takes about 10 mins for -4 (or greater) to ever get joined. That and one guy's 10 seconds isn't always the same as the others, especially if one guy lights the cans right at 10 seconds while the other guy kisses off, runs up to mil, then lights the blowers another 5 seconds later or something like that.
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Just use your interrogator and have a different mode 2 for each person, then you know who you are locked to.

I did a 4 ship radar trail departure today, took about 4 mins together everyone into standard formation.
 
EvilEagle said:
Just use your interrogator and have a different mode 2 for each person, then you know who you are locked to.

I did a 4 ship radar trail departure today, took about 4 mins together everyone into standard formation.
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Yeah that can work, though I prefer MIDS PPLI. I know you guys seem to use the streaming takeoff technique.....not sure if that adds to the length of joinup time compared to how we just put everyone on the runway and do 10 sec AB go's. Our standard for rdr trail is for everyone to be 1 nm in trail of the guy ahead, and to stay there until everyone is on top. 10 mins was a pretty healthy exaggeration........I just meant that it takes a while for a division to get standard if there is actually weather to punch through.
 
cirrusmx said:
whats the hurry to get such aircraft out of an overcasted airport? wait for a vfr day.
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It's just an extra option.
No one asks what's a point of an instrument rating when you can just wait for a VFR day, similar thing here, just another option.
 
I'd say if someone was that intent on traveling in a VFR aircraft to break the FARs, maybe it's time to step up to IFR.
 
Any other old F-4 guys remember the great Jever mid-air show of June 17, 1982?

Here's what happened. A four ship of Wild Weasel F-4G's was briefing to fly non-stop from George AFB (now Victorville airport) to Jever AB Germany.

The leader was the squadron operations officer. Number 4 was the one-star Wing King.

At the end of the briefing, the Wing King answered the 'any questions' by telling the flight that he had arranged for the F-4 four ship to be escorted in Jever by two Luftwaffe F-104's, flown by his Luftwaffe buddies. They were going to buzz the base or something in some kind of six ship V formation.

This particular General office was one of those mad queen 'off with their heads' types, so nobody dared question the wisdom of this plan. Crew resource management was a concept alien to this particular General.

So our heros motor over to Jever. The two F-104's join the Weasel fours ship.

They form their six ship V, and dive for Jever.

Into the clouds.

For the formation pilots in the readership, quick - What's the lost wingman procedure for a six ship V formation?

Answer: There is none!!

Result:

Two Weasels collide and both tumble out of control in IMC with hydraulic failures, electrical failures, flashing lights, dogs and cats living together, human sacrifice, mass hysteria!

Both crews eject and survive.

Now, for those of you familiar with how the Air Force works in the case of an accident involving a General officer, who was at fault?

You, the hand in the back, you're right!

Yes, the primary cause the loss of the two accident airplanes was the Electronic Warfare Officers (EWOs) initiating crew ejection sequences!! :nono:

A major contributing factor was the negligence of the pilots for letting the EWOs select 'both' on the ejection seat command selector handle. :no:

Because these yellow bellied beeps and squeaks cowards choose the eject rather than spin down through the clouds in airplanes that were missing big pieces.

After all, the MacAir engineer proved on paper that both Phantoms were in fact flyable on the remaining hydraulic and electrical systems. The engineer only need a few weeks of blueprint study and simulator sessions to figure that out.

And, I kid you not, according to the official 12AF Commander's after action message, when it was explained to these two subhuman beep and squeak guys that they had destroyed two perfectly good airplanes by their cowardice, both gave the same unacceptable reply:

"I'm alive." :hairraise:

I ask you, what kind of sorry excuse is that from two non-pilots!
 
Mike I said:
Of course, there's the infamous video:
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There are plenty of videos showing crashes or near misses of everything that you can possibly do in an airplane. If I was to show you a video of someone crashing on take off I seriously doubt that you'll come to the conclusion that a take off is too dangerous and you should stop doing that. Also, I'm not really sure what this video has to do with this thread, I bet you that guy would have had the same near miss if he was not in formation. The problem in the video was trying to fly VFR in IMC, has nothing to do with the topic being discussed here.
 
MachFly said:
Also, I'm not really sure what this video has to do with this thread
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It's a response to your earlier post regarding civilian aircraft flying formation in IMC, which is clearly demonstrated (to ill effect). and also in response to the large amount of discussion in this thread about flying a non-IFR aircraft in formation with an IFR-equipped and legal one in IMC. Lastly, it's a response to CAucker's post of a three-ship ILS approach, but from the perspective of people ill-trained to do formation IMC.

In the video, there's no attempt to remain VFR in IMC. They're in solid IMC until encountering cumulogranite and bushes. It's a demonstration of false confidence in the nav equipment on board and blindly following the pilot of the L39. Quite relevant.
 
Mike I said:
It's a response to your earlier post regarding civilian aircraft flying formation in IMC, which is clearly demonstrated (to ill effect). and also in response to the large amount of discussion in this thread about flying a non-IFR aircraft in formation with an IFR-equipped and legal one in IMC. Lastly, it's a response to CAucker's post of a three-ship ILS approach, but from the perspective of people ill-trained to do formation IMC.

In the video, there's no attempt to remain VFR in IMC. They're in solid IMC until encountering cumulogranite and bushes. It's a demonstration of false confidence in the nav equipment on board and blindly following the pilot of the L39. Quite relevant.
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My mistake, thought you were trying to point something out with the near miss.


BTW what do you mean by "blindly following the pilot of the L39?" To me it looked like the Bonanza was the flight lead, at least until they got into IMC at which point I couldn't see the other aircraft.
Regarding the "blindly" part, when you fly in formation you essentially only look at your flight lead and go where he goes. If you start paying significant attention to other things you might hit him. So the key thing is to trust your flight lead. I mean can you break off if you think it's necessary, however at that point you have to initiate lost procedures as you were not navigating before. In my opinion breaking off in IMC and so close to the mountains is almost suicidal because you really don't know where your going at that point.
 
JimNtexas said:
Any other old F-4 guys remember the great Jever mid-air show of June 17, 1982?

Here's what happened. A four ship of Wild Weasel F-4G's was briefing to fly non-stop from George AFB (now Victorville airport) to Jever AB Germany.

The leader was the squadron operations officer. Number 4 was the one-star Wing King.

At the end of the briefing, the Wing King answered the 'any questions' by telling the flight that he had arranged for the F-4 four ship to be escorted in Jever by two Luftwaffe F-104's, flown by his Luftwaffe buddies. They were going to buzz the base or something in some kind of six ship V formation.

This particular General office was one of those mad queen 'off with their heads' types, so nobody dared question the wisdom of this plan. Crew resource management was a concept alien to this particular General.

So our heros motor over to Jever. The two F-104's join the Weasel fours ship.

They form their six ship V, and dive for Jever.

Into the clouds.

For the formation pilots in the readership, quick - What's the lost wingman procedure for a six ship V formation?

Answer: There is none!!

Result:

Two Weasels collide and both tumble out of control in IMC with hydraulic failures, electrical failures, flashing lights, dogs and cats living together, human sacrifice, mass hysteria!

Both crews eject and survive.

Now, for those of you familiar with how the Air Force works in the case of an accident involving a General officer, who was at fault?

You, the hand in the back, you're right!

Yes, the primary cause the loss of the two accident airplanes was the Electronic Warfare Officers (EWOs) initiating crew ejection sequences!! :nono:

A major contributing factor was the negligence of the pilots for letting the EWOs select 'both' on the ejection seat command selector handle. :no:

Because these yellow bellied beeps and squeaks cowards choose the eject rather than spin down through the clouds in airplanes that were missing big pieces.

After all, the MacAir engineer proved on paper that both Phantoms were in fact flyable on the remaining hydraulic and electrical systems. The engineer only need a few weeks of blueprint study and simulator sessions to figure that out.

And, I kid you not, according to the official 12AF Commander's after action message, when it was explained to these two subhuman beep and squeak guys that they had destroyed two perfectly good airplanes by their cowardice, both gave the same unacceptable reply:

"I'm alive." :hairraise:

I ask you, what kind of sorry excuse is that from two non-pilots!
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That is absurd. I know the mishap board is supposed to be unbiased, but what are the chances that said Gen had a hand in the final determination? Cause that is an outrageous thing for any mishap board to conclude given the above circumstances.....I wouldn't fault them for saying "opso flew a dissimilar heavy division V into IMC" or "pilot 1 and pilot 2 hit each other" etc etc. But this, hell no....
 
35 AoA said:
That is absurd. I know the mishap board is supposed to be unbiased, but what are the chances that said Gen had a hand in the final determination? Cause that is an outrageous thing for any mishap board to conclude given the above circumstances.....I wouldn't fault them for saying "opso flew a dissimilar heavy division V into IMC" or "pilot 1 and pilot 2 hit each other" etc etc. But this, hell no....
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Judging what is happening in DC right now... I have absolutely NO faith in common sense or even a fair resolution to even the simplist problem.......:mad2::mad::mad::sad:
 
N801BH said:
Judging what is happening in DC right now... I have absolutely NO faith in common sense or even a fair resolution to even the simplist problem.......:mad2::mad::mad::sad:
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Ben, why would what is happening in DC now have any bearing on how you feel about an incident that occurred in the first few years of Reagan's presidency? I don't understand how the two are related. Remember, this isn't SZ.
 
gprellwitz said:
Ben, why would what is happening in DC now have any bearing on how you feel about an incident that occurred in the first few years of Reagan's presidency? I don't understand how the two are related. Remember, this isn't SZ.
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Grant..... I will keep it out of the spin zone....
 
Ok. I let it go as long as i could possibly hold it in. WTF? If a person even has to ask a question so odd, so severe. The ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY No! regardless Of the reason, it only stands as as an example of a person who has no ifr experience. If they had,why kill yourself and make the rest of us responsible pilots suffer more restrictions as a result of your stupidity?


I really want this to go on record as quite possibly one of the most dangerous and irresponsible questions i have ever heard of!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
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