Flying an ILS that requires ADF but not ADF (or IFR GPS) equipped

flyzone

flyzone

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Flyzone
I've flown into airports in instrument conditions (with plenty of cloud clearance and visibility) where approach has vectored me to the only ILS on the field and the approach requires an ADF for the missed approach segment. I fly /A and approach never asks if I am ADF equipped. I was never concerned with actually having to execute a miss where on practices I always get vectored anyway and I don't fly in anywhere near 1/2-200 conditions. But, I'm just wondering how others have dealt with this. Do you just go elsewhere? I have a non-IFR certified GPS and could find it if I had to but I'm pretty sure I'll never have to.

Now I know I'm about to hear the wrath of the enforcers that one should not be flying an approach without the proper equipment but really, my IFR approaches are near VFR but I figure I'd ask anyway.
 
Well you are violating FARs but hey if you're OK with ito_O.... Just one question: if you had to go missed on your example approach and couldn't remain VFR what would you do?

In answer to your question, I don't shoot approaches that I'm not legally equipped to fly.
 
Flying an approach without being able to execute its missed approach segment is playing Russian Roulette. Flying IFR without being legally IFR equipped you are endangering yourself and others.
 
ATC is not responsible for making sure you're legal to fly the approach.

I deal with this by flying approaches I'm legal to fly. Having an approach certified GPS makes it a lot easier to find an approach that is legal.
 
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flyzone said:
I've flown into airports in instrument conditions (with plenty of cloud clearance and visibility) where approach has vectored me to the only ILS on the field and the approach requires an ADF for the missed approach segment. I fly /A and approach never asks if I am ADF equipped.
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It's not ATC's responsibility to ensure you have the required equipment and they will never ask you to verify (whether it's an ADF or DME or whatever). It's your job to notify them that you can't accept it and request a different approach. If the airport doesn't have one, then you can't legally shoot an approach to that airport. You will get no wrath of enforcer from me, as a controller I couldn't care less. As a pilot, I would be concerned if you were conducting the approach and something bad happened (i.e. engine quits and you have an off airport landing) and the NTSB/FAA/your insurer gets involved and finds out you weren't on a legal approach.
 
They didn't ask if you had a LOC or GS receiver either. All /A says is you have a transponder and DME. It's up to you to determine if you have the equipment to fly any clearance you obtain.
 
RotorDude said:
Flying an approach without being able to execute its missed approach segment is playing Russian Roulette. Flying IFR without being legally IFR equipped you are endangering yourself and others.
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ADF is required on the missed approach. DH is 400 ft. Ceiling is 1500 ft. I am on top at 4000 ft. being vectored by approach.
So, it is ok for me to fly the pattern VFR, but flying the ILS is reckless, stupid and illegal? I would fly the approach down through the IMC, knowing that I could legally go around VFR. Personally, I would avoid making an approach where a missed was a possibility.

Fortunately, the FAA is removing the ADF requirement on lots of approaches, my home drone included.
 
When did ATC become the PIC?
 
Well stupid or reckless remains to be seen, but it definitely is illegal. Just because you could fly a route legally VFR in the given conditions doesn't mean it's legal to do so IFR. IFR is a whole set of RULES not just things to cope with weather conditions.
 
Morgan3820 said:
ADF is required on the missed approach. DH is 400 ft. Ceiling is 1500 ft. I am on top at 4000 ft. being vectored by approach.
So, it is ok for me to fly the pattern VFR, but flying the ILS is reckless, stupid and illegal? I would fly the approach down through the IMC, knowing that I could legally go around VFR. Personally, I would avoid making an approach where a missed was a possibility.

Fortunately, the FAA is removing the ADF requirement on lots of approaches, my home drone included.
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You can do just about whatever you want. But if it goes to hell it's on you, and you could be violated by the FAA. Or worse. The approach may require your plane to be equipped appropriately to shoot that particular approach. You know it's reported as VMC on the field so you ignore the requirement for that equipment. Your decision. Regardless if you agree or not, the requirement is there and it's on you to comply with it. Don't feel it's needed, fine, on you. As long as you know that it's your call and decision to ignore the requirement, rock on.
 
flyzone said:
I've flown into airports in instrument conditions (with plenty of cloud clearance and visibility) where approach has vectored me to the only ILS on the field and the approach requires an ADF for the missed approach segment. I fly /A and approach never asks if I am ADF equipped. I was never concerned with actually having to execute a miss where on practices I always get vectored anyway and I don't fly in anywhere near 1/2-200 conditions. But, I'm just wondering how others have dealt with this. Do you just go elsewhere? I have a non-IFR certified GPS and could find it if I had to but I'm pretty sure I'll never have to.

Now I know I'm about to hear the wrath of the enforcers that one should not be flying an approach without the proper equipment but really, my IFR approaches are near VFR but I figure I'd ask anyway.
Click to expand...

The first thing I did when I purchased my plane was to remove the ADF. Knowing that I did not want to be tested on an obsolete piece of equipment during my IR check-ride, and I needed the panel space for useful stuff. Others tape 'Out of service' over the face. My repair guy will fix everything but an ADF.
I agree with your approach (pun intended), but why bring it up when you know the Chicken Little crowd will beat you up?
 
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flyzone said:
I have a non-IFR certified GPS and could find it if I had to but I'm pretty sure I'll never have to.
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mad.gif

An IFR-certified GPS can be used in lieu of an ADF/DME on most localizer approaches, however there are still a few circumstances that it cannot. In all reality, it really doesn't matter if you ever find your non-IFR certified GPS, because it still won't be legal.

You're playing with fire.
 
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Morgan3820 said:
but why bring it up when you know the Chicken Little crowd will beat you up?
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I don't see where anyone is "beating" the OP up. OP asked a question, and received the legal answer. Whether one wants to comply with the legal requirement is all on that person. You could probably get away with it, maybe forever, but one day it may bite you. Then what.

If one ignores this requirement, what else will they skip or ignore?
 
Morgan3820 said:
why bring it up when you know the Chicken Little crowd will beat you up?
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I can't speak for the OP but my guess is he brought it up to hear other's perspective so in the future he can have more understanding to help him evaluate the risk/reward of doing this. Is conducting the operation with relatively good wx a case of extreme disregard for safety? Obviously not but if something does happen, chances are high that the not legal nature of the operation (again not suggesting it isn't safe) can have a negative impact on him in one way or another.
 
Morgan3820 said:
ADF is required on the missed approach. DH is 400 ft. Ceiling is 1500 ft. I am on top at 4000 ft. being vectored by approach.
So, it is ok for me to fly the pattern VFR, but flying the ILS is reckless, stupid and illegal? I would fly the approach down through the IMC, knowing that I could legally go around VFR. Personally, I would avoid making an approach where a missed was a possibility.
Click to expand...

I see no difference between what you are describing and any other illegal act, like flying IFR without an IFR rating or IFR capable aircraft. Or perhaps flying a home-brewed approach, or flying while drunk or high on drugs. All could work for a while, but eventually will catch up with you. I just hope you don't harm innocent others in the process.

Morgan3820 said:
Fortunately, the FAA is removing the ADF requirement on lots of approaches, my home drone included.
Click to expand...

Is your home IFR capable?
 
Morgan3820 said:
ADF is required on the missed approach. DH is 400 ft. Ceiling is 1500 ft. I am on top at 4000 ft. being vectored by approach.
So, it is ok for me to fly the pattern VFR, but flying the ILS is reckless, stupid and illegal? I would fly the approach down through the IMC, knowing that I could legally go around VFR. Personally, I would avoid making an approach where a missed was a possibility.

Fortunately, the FAA is removing the ADF requirement on lots of approaches, my home drone included.
Click to expand...

What is the minimum vectoring altitude for ATC? Can you fly a contact approach? If you set out for a destination that has less than VFR weather without an ability to fly the available approach, you better expect that you're going to be diverting to your designated (or undesignated) alternate.
 
RotorDude said:
I see no difference between what you are describing and any other illegal act, like flying IFR without an IFR rating or IFR capable aircraft. Or perhaps flying a home-brewed approach, or flying while drunk or high on drugs. All could work for a while, but eventually will catch up with you. I just hope you don't harm innocent others in the process.
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Flying an approach in solid VMC without the equipment needed to fly the published missed is like flying high on drugs? Seriously? IMO that's a false equality. You could just as well say that going 5 mph over the speed limit or finishing passing someone on a two-lane highway past the double yellow line is like driving/flying high on drugs. One can, and is likely to, kill you or innocent people. The other may or may not be dangerous, depending on the circumstances.

I generally obey the law and would never counsel someone to break a law -- pretty much any law. But I don't pretend that all violations of the law are equally serious. I would answer the OP's question much like everyone else has: it's not legal, but I won't tell you you're likely to get busted. It's on you, like flying IFR when you're not legally current or rated. If conditions are solid VMC, it's still illegal but you're unlikely to get into trouble for it - unless something else goes wrong. And it's NOT like flying stoned, or deliberately flying into IMC in busy airspace without a clearance, which makes you a blind menace and for which I wouldn't hesitate to turn someone in.
 
Morgan3820 said:
The first thing I did when I purchased my plane was to remove the ADF. Knowing that I did not want to be tested on an obsolete piece of equipment during my IR check-ride, and I needed the panel space for useful stuff. Others tape 'Out of service' over the face. My repair guy will fix everything but an ADF.
I agree with your approach (pun intended), but why bring it up when you know the Chicken Little crowd will beat you up?
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Interesting. The shop in the hangar next to my office does a nice little business installing ADFs into brand new Caravans.
 
flyzone said:
I've flown into airports in instrument conditions (with plenty of cloud clearance and visibility) where approach has vectored me to the only ILS on the field and the approach requires an ADF for the missed approach segment. I fly /A and approach never asks if I am ADF equipped. I was never concerned with actually having to execute a miss where on practices I always get vectored anyway and I don't fly in anywhere near 1/2-200 conditions. But, I'm just wondering how others have dealt with this. Do you just go elsewhere? I have a non-IFR certified GPS and could find it if I had to but I'm pretty sure I'll never have to.

Now I know I'm about to hear the wrath of the enforcers that one should not be flying an approach without the proper equipment but really, my IFR approaches are near VFR but I figure I'd ask anyway.
Click to expand...

There's the letter of the law and there is the intent of the law. Like has been said, doing it is a violation of the letter of the law. If conditions are such that you know you ain't gonna have to miss because of weather, well yeah, you could say no problem, I ain't violating the intent. But things could still go south on you. ATC may say "execute missed approach" at any time because of traffic or the runway gets closed. If you are not in VMC at that time and can cancel, you are now in never never land. Maybe they got Radar and you can get vectored. Maybe they got Radar and the solution to their traffic problem at the time is for you to execute the published missed approach. Now you gotta fess up and say you can't. Or do it anyway relying on your non IFR certified GPS or just do it visually because you are familiar enough the area, like knowing exactly where that NDB antennae is. There is a condition where I would do it. Being in VMC at all times and being able to cancel IFR at anytime.
 
azure said:
Flying an approach in solid VMC without the equipment needed to fly the published missed is like flying high on drugs? Seriously? IMO that's a false equality. You could just as well say that going 5 mph over the speed limit or finishing passing someone on a two-lane highway past the double yellow line is like driving/flying high on drugs. One can, and is likely to, kill you or innocent people. The other may or may not be dangerous, depending on the circumstances.

I generally obey the law and would never counsel someone to break a law -- pretty much any law. But I don't pretend that all violations of the law are equally serious. I would answer the OP's question much like everyone else has: it's not legal, but I won't tell you you're likely to get busted. It's on you, like flying IFR when you're not legally current or rated. If conditions are solid VMC, it's still illegal but you're unlikely to get into trouble for it - unless something else goes wrong. And it's NOT like flying stoned, or deliberately flying into IMC in busy airspace without a clearance, which makes you a blind menace and for which I wouldn't hesitate to turn someone in.
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Flying a simulated IFR approach in solid VMC is of course OK, legal, and recommended for rusty or new pilots. Flying any IFR approach, regardless of weather, without the equipment required for that approach, is illegal and potentially dangerous. Yes, you can get away with a lot of illegal activity with no harm done, but the law is there to create bright lines.
I agree that all of us cross the line sometimes -- going slightly over the speed limit on the highway comes to mind -- and we do so while weighing the consequences: increased risk of an accident and/or getting caught/fined. Similarly for many other laws and legal limits, aviation included.
So each of us has their own personal bright line: for me one line would be getting an IFR clearance without the requisite (and properly functioning) equipment. Yes, in solid VMC you are probably not going to get into trouble, but the problem is the slippery slope that none of us humans is immune to. So today it's solid VMC, tomorrow just plain VMC, and next week it might be marginal VMC, until we start going through clouds. After all, we are on an IFR clearance, right?
Then we might end up NORDO in that situation, and if we don't have the right equipment, we are up the creek.
So once you start flying around illegally, it will lead you to taking higher and higher risk, to yourself and others. Perhaps not identical to flying or driving while intoxicated, but similar in the attitude of disregard for laws, safety, and others around you.
 
flyingron said:
Well stupid or reckless remains to be seen, but it definitely is illegal. Just because you could fly a route legally VFR in the given conditions doesn't mean it's legal to do so IFR. IFR is a whole set of RULES not just things to cope with weather conditions.
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^^^^^THIS^^^^^

I'm a rules guy. Rules matter. Little things like flying an approach without the proper equipment may not seem like a big deal to the OP or Morgan, but it is a slippery slope. If you start down the road of deciding which rules are important and which ones are flexible, then you are heading in the wrong direction. Some may question the wisdom of posting about it on a public forum, but it at least shows that the OP is questioning his decision/behavior. Hopefully he will realize that it is NOT OKAY to continue deciding which RULES he thinks are important enough to follow, and which RULES can be ignored.
 
RotorDude said:
So once you start flying around illegally, it will lead you to taking higher and higher risk, to yourself and others. Perhaps not identical to flying or driving while intoxicated, but similar in the attitude of disregard for laws, safety, and others around you.
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I think the only place we disagree is on the "slippery slope" argument. I believe that's largely an individual thing. Some people are susceptible to it, others are not. I've bent the speed limit literally hundreds of times but have never, to my knowledge, run a red light or gone the wrong way down a one-way street. I knew an instrument student at the FBO/flight school I used to rent from who told me he would often file IFR on CAVU days for practice operating in the system. My attitude was, I wouldn't do this if I were you (and I never did), but okay, whatever, that's on you if you are willing to accept the consequences if you are caught. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about whether he was generally law-abiding, or whether he continued his scofflaw ways after he got his IR. I simply don't know.

luvflyin made a good point that even though it's VMC, ATC could still tell you to miss for other reasons, such as traffic. Something you would have to be prepared for if you wanted to do this - your only legal course of action would be to cancel IFR, or else 'fess up. And if you cancel, you're now responsible for your own separation and had better have good situational awareness to deal with the situation you brought on yourself. Caveat aviator, always.
 
azure said:
I think the only place we disagree is on the "slippery slope" argument. I believe that's largely an individual thing. Some people are susceptible to it, others are not. I've bent the speed limit literally hundreds of times but have never, to my knowledge, run a red light or gone the wrong way down a one-way street. I knew an instrument student at the FBO/flight school I used to rent from who told me he would often file IFR on CAVU days for practice operating in the system. My attitude was, I wouldn't do this if I were you (and I never did), but okay, whatever, that's on you if you are willing to accept the consequences if you are caught. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about whether he was generally law-abiding, or whether he continued his scofflaw ways after he got his IR. I simply don't know.
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Well, I have another argument besides the slippery slope, and it has to do with the impact on the rest of us. When I ask for a popup IFR clearance, ATC rarely ask the formal question: "Confirm you are IFR rated and equipped" (or whatever). I appreciate that, because it means they trust me, or "us" (GA pilots), to act professionally and play by the rules, and treat us accordingly. Every time you have some misfit cheating the system, e.g. by lying about their credentials or equipment, they erode the trust that ATC has in us, collectively. This is similar to the effect a single GA accident has on the entire community, not just the immediate victims. So I resent losing that trust, which helps getting clearances (and flying in the system) faster and easier, due to those who lie and cut corners at the expense of the rest of us.
And BTW, getting the popup clearance quicker often makes a big difference, e.g. when you are flying into a cloud bank and need to start making evasive maneuvers while ATC is processing your clearance.
 
MAKG1 said:
I thought that airplane was ADF equipped. I seem to recall demonstrating it to cadets on KGO leaving San Carlos.
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Good point - I forgot about that.

Years ago, when I was managing a non-glass-panel aircraft at your squadron, there was a proposal to take out the ADF. I successfully argued against the idea because of the Livermore ILS, since the plane didn't have an IFR GPS.
 
tsts4 said:
Well you are violating FARs but hey if you're OK with ito_O.... Just one question: if you had to go missed on your example approach and couldn't remain VFR what would you do?

In answer to your question, I don't shoot approaches that I'm not legally equipped to fly.
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I would use my (non-IFR) GPS to locate the NDB. It probably would be about 30 ft. or less off. I do keep the database up to date but the NDB locations never change. I also have a Garmin ADS-B transponder with internal WAAS GPS that provides situational awareness to an iPad tablet with Foreflight. With these I'll bet I could fly that missed approach better than anyone with an ADF. I'd probably be getting vectors anyway but to answer your question that is what I would do if I had to go missed.
 
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flyzone said:
I would use my (non-IFR) GPS to locate the NDB. It probably would be about 30 ft. or less off. I do keep the database up to date but the NDB locations never change. I also have a Garmin ADS-B transponder with internal WAAS GPS that provides situational awareness to an iPad tablet with Foreflight. With these I'll bet I could fly that missed approach better than anyone with an ADF. I'd probably would be getting vectors anyway but to answer your question that is what I would do if I had to go missed.
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Excellent point. As others have noted, once you decide it's ok to violate the rules, might as well go all the way. Add not being instrument current, not being instrument rated and having an airplane with no certified IFR equipment at all to the scenario, and the answer is exactly the same.

Nice troll :)
 
flyzone said:
I would use my (non-IFR) GPS to locate the NDB. It probably would be about 30 ft. or less off. I do keep the database up to date but the NDB locations never change. I also have a Garmin ADS-B transponder with internal WAAS GPS that provides situational awareness to an iPad tablet with Foreflight. With these I'll bet I could fly that missed approach better than anyone with an ADF. I'd probably would be getting vectors anyway but to answer your question that is what I would do if I had to go missed.
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Part of being non IFR is not having RAIM. That means you don't know if it's feeding you BS.

It's one thing to do that in an emergency, but it's irresponsible in the extreme to plan to fly an approach you're not equipped for. Use a different approach.

And NDBs and LOMs do sometimes "move" as they get decommissioned, which is happening fairly regularly. They do not always disappear from the IAP when they are gone. You just get a NOTAM "suitable RNAV required." Yours is not suitable.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Excellent point. As others have noted, once you decide it's ok to violate the rules, might as well go all the way. Add not being instrument current, not being instrument rated and having an airplane with no certified IFR equipment at all to the scenario, and the answer is exactly the same.
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Only if you assume that he doesn't care about safety. If you think that he believes that legality and safety are always synonymous, then such an assumption might seem reasonable, but I see no evidence that he believes that.

Nice troll :)
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Disagreement is not synonymous with trolling.
 
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Here's a safety-related question to ponder: Which are more reliable, ADF receivers, or VFR GPS receivers? Does anyone have data on this?
 
Palmpilot said:
Here's a safety-related question to ponder: Which are more reliable, ADF receivers, or VFR GPS receivers? Does anyone have data on this?
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Hard data is going to be difficult to come by, but NDB signals are orders of magnitude stronger than GPS signals, are considerably closer to the receiver in any approach scenario, and are not blocked by terrain. ADF equipment may also be a lot older.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Excellent point. As others have noted, once you decide it's ok to violate the rules, might as well go all the way. Add not being instrument current, not being instrument rated and having an airplane with no certified IFR equipment at all to the scenario, and the answer is exactly the same.

Nice troll :)
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I really wasn't trolling. And, if I'm breaking a rule I generally do it reluctantly, infrequently and with some thought. And, I'm not likely to break more than one at a time with plenty of margin for downsides. I know that doesn't help the religious but I'm sure at least half of them do the same.
 
MAKG1 said:
Part of being non IFR is not having RAIM. That means you don't know if it's feeding you BS.

It's one thing to do that in an emergency, but it's irresponsible in the extreme to plan to fly an approach you're not equipped for. Use a different approach.

And NDBs and LOMs do sometimes "move" as they get decommissioned, which is happening fairly regularly. They do not always disappear from the IAP when they are gone. You just get a NOTAM "suitable RNAV required." Yours is not suitable.
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Well, let see ... I have a GPS receiver (Garmin 250XL) that says it has internal RAIM checking. The manual, published in 1997, states that RAIM will be available "nearly 100% of the time" - that usually means something like 99.999%. With the airport I'm talking about (KMYR) along the flat east coast it's probably never had a RAIM issue. In all the years I've had the GPS (since 1998) I've never received a RAIM warning. Now, with my ADS-B receiver with WAAS it is my understanding that RAIM is not an issue at least for my transponder/iPad combo. (I do carry 2 iPads). I think it really is a non-issue for me and my flying (east coast, non-mountain).

But since you mention it it would be interesting to know who, when and where have ever received RAIM integrity warnings?
 
flyzone said:
But since you mention it it would be interesting to know who, when and where have ever received RAIM integrity warnings?
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I got it, in IMC, on a missed approach, on a coastal mountain airport (KHAF, RWY 30 RNAV Z). Followed shortly by a loss of signal and a "DR" annunciation. Worse, out of communication with Approach due to terrain shadowing. I was on my own to 2000 feet with unusable primary nav.

Do you wonder why I take it seriously? An iPad didn't help. It didn't have signal either. Worse, it SAID it did for a few minutes, but showed my ground speed as zero. Probably interference; there were crowds below due to the annual Maverick's surfing competition (last year).

If you've never seen a RAIM warning, I'd be very concerned that it doesn't actually work. While not an everyday occurrence, they do happen from time to time.

Depending critically on an iPad for routine operations is foolish. It is not an avionics device, and has failure modes inconsistent with that use. And some of those correlate strongly with avionics failures, so it is not redundancy.

You overestimate what "nearly all the time" means. And don't make up statistics.
 
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Palmpilot said:
Here's a safety-related question to ponder: Which are more reliable, ADF receivers, or VFR GPS receivers? Does anyone have data on this?
Click to expand...

No real data to back this up, but having used both, between my ADF and my Stratus w/I-pad, my money is on the Stratus/I-pad.
 
Thanks all for your replies. The first time this happened to me I really just sort of stumbled on it. I could have chosen another ILS approach in the opposite direction (no NDB fix) but I actually felt safer proceeding with the favored runway since the wind was really blowing from the other way and I didn't want to go roaring down the glideslope. I also had a VOR approach to choose from but it was nearly on top of me by the time I figured all that out. Yes, the plane was in front of me. I was really interested to see what kind of leeway others allowed themselves for such a condition. I'm not sure I got that but I did get a bit of a spanking so maybe I'll just have to find that $15K somehow for an IFR GPS receiver (at least that what my avionics shop wants). But it's going to be a while.
 
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