Fly with master switch off to save money?

N801BH said:
Hmmm.. A certified plane, wired with the Hobbs meter always running when the master is on is and the motor is NOT running is illegal.. To my knowledge no plane has that electrical architecture that the FAA approved...:dunno::nonod:...
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Every Cirrus has a Hobbs Meter, which records the time when the Battery #1 switch is on, and either alternator is on. And the planes are certified.
 
NoHeat said:
Every Cirrus has a Hobbs Meter, which records the time when the Battery #1 switch is on, and either alternator is on. And the planes are certified.
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Interesting.........

But then why would you need to turn on the alternator with the motor not running just to check ATIS ? Battery power alone will run the com radio. :dunno:
 
N801BH said:
Interesting.........

But then why would you need to turn on the alternator with the motor not running just to check ATIS ? Battery power alone will run the com radio. :dunno:
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That's correct.

My point is that there is a certified plane that has a Hobbs meter that runs off the "Master." It will run if you turn on two electrical switches, Bat1 and either Alt1 or Alt2. I think this is a counter example to what you described as an illegal configuration, if I understood you correctly.
 
NoHeat said:
That's correct.

My point is that there is a certified plane that has a Hobbs meter that runs off the "Master." It will run if you turn on two electrical switches, Bat1 and either Alt1 or Alt2. I think this is a counter example to what you described as an illegal configuration, if I understood you correctly.
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It is an Illegal config in the plane the other poster was referring to.. Apparently the Cirrus has some different ideas on main buss/ master switch architecture...

I stand corrected...

Ps.. I would like to know why they wired it that way.. Anyone out there know ?:dunno:
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I know of a rental like that as well. I always cringed envisioning the $155/hour rate clicking away while listening to AWOS before a flight.
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The debate about cell phone coverage aside, in most cases, the windsock and knowing the general outdoor temperature is plenty of information. ASOS doesn't buy ya that much.
 
douglas393 said:
I have been following this thread since opt first was posted. I have been criticized for being one of those who feels he is holier than thou. I take the criticism in stride. As I have said I am not perfect but I do not see the entertainment value of fantasizing on how to rip off others, just the way I am and I am not going to apologize for this.

What I do not understand is why people are willing to sacrifice safety to save a few dollars. My question is how much do you really save by getting the AWOS by telephone or handheld? I like to check the AWOS just prior t take off just to make sure nothing has changed. The run up takes more time than checking the AWOS do you not do this to save money as well.

I know I am in the minority about this but such is life.

Doug
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$120hr = $2 a minute, so ATIS and a clearance will be about $5. Pilots are about the cheapest breed of humans there are.
 
not yet, Innocent until the act is committed. But he does need to decide which way to turn. Or unless he is a Christian, then he is biblically damned for thinking it. (committing a sin in your heart is a sin). Dave
 
Ddayle said:
not yet, Innocent until the act is committed. But he does need to decide which way to turn. Or unless he is a Christian, then he is biblically damned for thinking it. (committing a sin in your heart is a sin). Dave
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A sin in your heart is the desire to commit a sin, not the consideration. With no consideration then no rejection is possible. If someone tells me they never thought about stealing anything, they are either mentally deficient of the region of the brain that causes those thoughts, or is lying and committing the same level of sin.
 
I didn't read all the pages on this thread, so sorry if I'm suggesting something someone already said. If you want to fly and save a significant amount on your flights without resorting to being a loathsome thief, try this-

Fly out of an uncontrolled airport, climb up to 12,000ft and then not only shut the master off, but also the engine. Make sure to get the plane slow enough to stop the wind milling prop, then dead stick the plane back to the airport and land. You'll be flying the whole time, but only paying for the ride up.
 
Dav8or said:
I didn't read all the pages on this thread, so sorry if I'm suggesting something someone already said. If you want to fly and save a significant amount on your flights without resorting to being a loathsome thief, try this-

Fly out of an uncontrolled airport, climb up to 12,000ft and then not only shut the master off, but also the engine. Make sure to get the plane slow enough to stop the wind milling prop, then dead stick the plane back to the airport and land. You'll be flying the whole time, but only paying for the ride up.
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:rofl: Brilliant! If you have the balls to do this then you deserve to save some money :yes:.
 
MassPilot said:
:rofl: Brilliant! If you have the balls to do this then you deserve to save some money :yes:.
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If you don't 'have the balls' to do it, then you don't deserve to have a pilots license. This is not something that would require any 'balls' beyond those required to earn a PP, any pilot should be able to complete this exercise with no great concern or trepidation and bring it to a safe landing.
 
Henning said:
If you don't 'have the balls' to do it, then you don't deserve to have a pilots license. This is not something that would require any 'balls' beyond those required to earn a PP, any pilot should be able to complete this exercise with no great concern or trepidation and bring it to a safe landing.
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Sure but doing it on purpose is another story. We're not talking about a simulated engine out. We're talking about a real engine out.
 
And I would definitely have lots of concern and trepidation about having a prop that's not spinning in the air. I think most single-engine pilots would.
 
Henning said:
If you don't 'have the balls' to do it, then you don't deserve to have a pilots license. This is not something that would require any 'balls' beyond those required to earn a PP, any pilot should be able to complete this exercise with no great concern or trepidation and bring it to a safe landing.
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If this were something you'd require all pilots to do tomorrow there'd be a lot of airplanes going to the scrap yard and the fire department would be rather busy.
 
MassPilot said:
Sure but doing it on purpose is another story. We're not talking about a simulated engine out. We're talking about a real engine out.
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So? Gliders do it on EVERY flight. If you are in VMC 10'000 above an airport and consider turning off the engine and gliding down to a landing as a risky maneuver, I restate, you shouldn't have a pilots license.
 
Henning said:
A sin in your heart is the desire to commit a sin, not the consideration. With no consideration then no rejection is possible. If someone tells me they never thought about stealing anything, they are either mentally deficient of the region of the brain that causes those thoughts, or is lying and committing the same level of sin.
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Can you tell me what part of the brain is the stealing center because I never learned that while in school and my neuroanatomy professors would surely like to know where it is? In fact, if you tell us where it is I am sure neurosurgeons will be more than happy to offer their services to the court system to remove it steeotactically and then we would not have to resort to sending thieves to jail!
 
Henning said:
So? Gliders do it on EVERY flight. If you are in VMC 10'000 above an airport and consider turning off the engine and gliding down to a landing as a risky maneuver, I restate, you shouldn't have a pilots license.
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Guilty as charged where should I return my license to. I feel that turning off my engine on purpose to prove I can glide to an airport is a unnecesarily risky maneuver, and I think not only would the FAA agree but so would my insurance company. Simulated engine failure is a different story. Actual engine failure on purpose; you will not find me doing that stupid pilot trick. Similarly, I am taught fire out emergency procedures and off airport landing procedures and would not set my airplane on fire or land in a cow pasture to prove I could do it.
Henning said:
So? Gliders do it on EVERY flight.
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Yeah gliders are designed to do that. My airplane is designed to fly with an engine. Gliders have just a slightly better(sarcasm here) glide ratio than my plane and can also gain altitude without an engine, whereas without an engine my plane only has one vertical direction of flight, down.
 
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Henning said:
So? Gliders do it on EVERY flight. If you are in VMC 10'000 above an airport and consider turning off the engine and gliding down to a landing as a risky maneuver, I restate, you shouldn't have a pilots license.
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Gliders tend to glide better then many of our aircraft and also have better ways overall to control their energy then most of our aircraft.
 
douglas393 said:
Can you tell me what part of the brain is the stealing center because I never learned that while in school and my neuroanatomy professors would surely like to know where it is? In fact, if you tell us where it is I am sure neurosurgeons will be more than happy to offer their services to the court system to remove it steeotactically and then we would not have to resort to sending thieves to jail!
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That's a very good question, and if you can't find the answer, then that leaves anybody making such a claim as to have never had the thought to be a liar. I was just leaving a choice of mentally deficient to those who would insist they never lie. However, there are psycopathies you will find where people are unable to have certain types of thoughts and missing certain filters.
 
jesse said:
Gliders tend to glide better then many of our aircraft and also have better ways overall to control their energy then most of our aircraft.
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You're afraid to circle to 10'000 over an airport and glide to the runway? What kind of glide ratio would you consider required to make this into a non scary event?
 
douglas393 said:
Guilty as charged where should I return my license to. I feel that turning off my engine on purpose to prove I can glide to an airport is a unnecesarily risky maneuver, and I think not only would the FAA agree but so would my insurance company. Simulated engine failure is a different story. Actual engine failure on purpose; you will not find me doing that stupid pilot trick. Similarly, I am taught fire out emergency procedures and off airport landing procedures and would not set my airplane on fire or land in a cow pasture to prove I could do it.

Yeah gliders are designed to do that. My airplane is designed to fly with an engine. Gliders have just a slightly better(sarcasm here) glide ratio than my plane and can also gain altitude without an engine, whereas without an engine my plane only has one vertical direction of flight, down.
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If you send your ticket to the address below it'll work.

FAA
800 Independence Ave, SW
Washington DC 20591
 
MassPilot said:
And I would definitely have lots of concern and trepidation about having a prop that's not spinning in the air. I think most single-engine pilots would.
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I think you should see one stopped at least once in your life... Gets the trepidation out of it. If you fly singles, especially.

I expressed such a concern long ago, so an instructor pulled the mixture (over an airport). We restarted prior to landing, but his point was driven home... know thy restart checklist, and remember the airplane flies no differently... Just get the nose down. And we had set up for a glide to the airport prior to restart.

(He also wanted me to see the prop stopped, so you have to pull pitch and slow below best glide to do that in most singles.)

We were really high. Things were different back then... Folks today would freak out, mostly.
 
Years ago they used to kill the motor to test a pilot on his/her ability to get it down safely..... After a few dead DPE's the FAA quit that trick..:eek:
 
Henning said:
You're afraid to circle to 10'000 over an airport and glide to the runway? What kind of glide ratio would you consider required to make this into a non scary event?
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I'm not "afraid of it" -- but I sure the hell don't see the reason I'd shut a perfectly good engine down. You're also making comparisons to gliders that just aren't true in the GA fleet.

Landing a glider power-off that you knew you were going to land power off that has a great glide ratio and a really fluid way to reduce that glide ratio via powerful speed brakes is entirely different then having to suddenly land a piston powered aircraft that no longer has piston power and suddenly has a poor glide ratio without nearly as many ways to control the energy. (realize not all gliders have speed brakes...but the point still applies)

I've yet to fly with a pilot that won't screw up an emergency landing attempt every now and then. Myself included. I seriously doubt you'd be any different. If I simulate fail your engine over and over throughout the course of a hour or two over the perfect midwest with tons of fields I can promise you that not all of them will end up with you going where you told me you were going.
 
Dav8or said:
Fly out of an uncontrolled airport, climb up to 12,000ft and then not only shut the master off, but also the engine. Make sure to get the plane slow enough to stop the wind milling prop, then dead stick the plane back to the airport and land. You'll be flying the whole time, but only paying for the ride up.
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MassPilot said:
:rofl: Brilliant! If you have the balls to do this then you deserve to save some money :yes:.
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:rofl::lol:
 
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Why does it matter if it's stopped? IMO, windmilling is far more likely and better training. I've only heard of one seizure (broke crank) and one slung prop (that doesn't really count due to reduced drag) that I can remember, but lots of other failures or voluntary power reductions that kept spinning.

Training in OK and TX meant lots of old military airports with three strips of pavement (6 runway choices) so we routinely trained dead-stick through roll-out because it was almost impossible to miss all of them. Most of the trainers were not equipped with starters so we didn't stop the props.





denverpilot said:
I think you should see one stopped at least once in your life... Gets the trepidation out of it. If you fly singles, especially.

I expressed such a concern long ago, so an instructor pulled the mixture (over an airport). We restarted prior to landing, but his point was driven home... know thy restart checklist, and remember the airplane flies no differently... Just get the nose down. And we had set up for a glide to the airport prior to restart.

(He also wanted me to see the prop stopped, so you have to pull pitch and slow below best glide to do that in most singles.)

We were really high. Things were different back then... Folks today would freak out, mostly.
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jesse said:
I'm not "afraid of it" -- but I sure the hell don't see the reason I'd shut a perfectly good engine down. You're also making comparisons to gliders that just aren't true in the GA fleet.

Landing a glider power-off that you knew you were going to land power off that has a great glide ratio and a really fluid way to reduce that glide ratio via powerful speed brakes is entirely different then having to suddenly land a piston powered aircraft that no longer has piston power and suddenly has a poor glide ratio without nearly as many ways to control the energy. (realize not all gliders have speed brakes...but the point still applies)

I've yet to fly with a pilot that won't screw up an emergency landing attempt every now and then. Myself included. I seriously doubt you'd be any different. If I simulate fail your engine over and over throughout the course of a hour or two over the perfect midwest with tons of fields I can promise you that not all of them will end up with you going where you told me you were going.
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I'll bet you $1000 that we can go up to 10,000' over an airport as many times as you want in a day, shut the engine off and I'll put it on the runway every time. We aren't talking emergencies here, we are talking a planned glide.
 
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Henning said:
I'll bet you $1000 that we can go up to 10,000' over an airport as many times as you want in a day, shut the engine off and I'll put it on the runway every time. We aren't talking emergencies here, we are talking a planned glide.
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And, I will bet you 10,000 bucks I can fly all the canyons out here at 20' agl and below treeline and come out the other side in one piece...

Is it fun..:dunno: You bet...:thumbsup:

Is it safe...:nonod::nonod::nonod::nono:.

Should I practice that all the time.:dunno:;)
 
My comment was only towards it requiring some incredible amount of balls to do when in fact it is something each of us should be continually ready to do.
 
Henning said:
You're afraid to circle to 10'000 over an airport and glide to the runway? What kind of glide ratio would you consider required to make this into a non scary event?
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Glide ratio doesn't matter (much) to me but the difference between gliders and power airplanes in this case is one has adjustable air brakes or spoilers and the other one doesn't. Both can be slipped, but a spoiler is the rough equivalent of a throttle and it does make life easier on approach - at least it did for me when I was training in gliders.
 
wabower said:
Why does it matter if it's stopped? IMO, windmilling is far more likely and better training.
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I think back then he was just wanting to show me that it's relatively hard to get it stopped. No other reason really.
 
N801BH said:
Years ago they used to kill the motor to test a pilot on his/her ability to get it down safely..... After a few dead DPE's the FAA quit that trick..:eek:
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Actually, I'm not aware in 50 years of that ever being a REQUIRED procedure.
It is still to this day done by certain instructors.
 
flyingron said:
Actually, I'm not aware in 50 years of that ever being a REQUIRED procedure.
It is still to this day done by certain instructors.
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Maybe I should clarify things.... I didn't say "required" but apparently I suggested it was... Back during my training in the early 80's it was a wide spread practice for instructors to kill the motor, and DPE's too... After what I assume was a rash of crashes and some fatalities the FAA directed their personal to NOT kill the motor but to just "simulate" an engine out by reducing power to idle. That order carried over into the private DPE's and in my opinion MOST will not shut off the motor. I am sure there are some out there who still kill the motor but, to my knowledge no FAA personal are allowed to. Anyone out there with different info :dunno:?
 
Henning said:
I'll bet you $1000 that we can go up to 10,000' over an airport as many times as you want in a day, shut the engine off and I'll put it on the runway every time. We aren't talking emergencies here, we are talking a planned glide.
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That's gonna depend on the airport. What if when you're down to 1000 AGL and some nitwit lands his LS airplane with it's 30 KIAS approach speed ahead of you and decides to taxi the entire length of the one and only 1800 ft runway at a slow walk leaving you nowhere to land your Mooney except in the trees growing alongside the narrow runway? Or maybe you picked an airport with two runways that cross in the middle only to find that someone has blown a tire and parked right at the intersection of the two. Meanwhile the 15 other airplanes that wanted to leave are spread out over the only taxiway... Hope that engine fires right up.
 
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denverpilot said:
I think back then he was just wanting to show me that it's relatively hard to get it stopped. No other reason really.
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I thought the idea was to stop the engine completely so the oil pressure switch turned the Hobbs meter off.
 
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