LandSickness
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fri tale
That's being economical, that's not attempting to "get over" on an FBO who could be taking other losses just to operate.
Fly with master switch off to save money?
- Thread starter MultiMediaWill
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That's being economical, that's not attempting to "get over" on an FBO who could be taking other losses just to operate.
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
My airport (60M) was like that until two years ago (the owner died in a crash). You wrote your tail number (or name) on the slip and the number of gallons. There was always a stack of cash under the pile of slips. There was a bill waiting for me at the end of the month and I'd run my credit card and mark it as paid.
ja_user
Pattern Altitude
Not on Hobbs time rentals. That's just going to make the bill higher. This the old joke, "Full Rental Power!"
There are still dry rentals and tach time rentals available.
And sharing time is still a valid option.
MassPilot
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My home airport is within a Mode C veil, so I would be violating the FAR's by doing this.
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
What's a little FAR violation when you're committing larceny?
douglas393
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Actually on a wet rental this would cost you more because you are charged by time, for a dry rental not sure where the trade off would be. For your own plane, though you would think this may be the best place, when you factor in the fixed hourly cost(oil changes, TBO, etc) the sweet spot is probably closer to 65% power than 55% power at least for my plane it was.
Doug
douglas393
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Let's be honest. I for one have never thought of turning off the master to cheat my FBO out of money. You are a business man, when you charge by the hour do you pad your hours. By your statement, I would guess you either do pad your hours or have thought about it.
I personally place a lot of importance in being ethical and moral, it is one of the few things that no one cannot take away from me.
How is what he is suggesting any different than shoplifting. Do you think about shopliofting as well. Anyway you cut it or package it or spin it, it is still stealing. You do not like the charging arrangements, try to discuss it with the FBO, if you cannot come to an agreement then fly somewhere else.
Also I strongly disagree about your comment about the measure of character. Character is not only based on what you do, but also what you think. All because you do not act upon what you really believe in does not give one good character. If you think about doing things that you know are morally incorrect, but do not act on it, it only shows that you have better self control than the equally morally deficient sap that does act upon it.
Doug
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dell30rb
Final Approach
Not for a wet rental with a hobbs meter.
I hate the wet rental/hobbs thing. No incentive not to fly that thing at full rental power. Not good for the plane or the club's collective wallet.
MultiMediaWill
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Will
Some of you guys need to calm down. I said I was never going to do it. First off I hate thieves too. Second it wouldn't even be possible at my FBO because we write down tach time and hobbs time so the FBO would catch on right away. It is pretty rude to label my entire "generation" as thieves. I didn't know asking a question is such a problem here. This idea only came to me after I read it on another website.
Naw, engines are perfectly happy running non-stop at redline to TBO and beyond. You're just spending a lot of money on gas is all.
Silvaire
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Believe me Will, this idea of bypassing the Hobbs meter doesn't belong to your generation or the 21st century, it was thought of (and tried) a long time ago by previous generations and there is only one way that it will work and that is if, by the time the FBO discovers what you have done, you have already left the premises and don't plan on coming back.
dell30rb
Final Approach
I know that you are right, because the 0-320's and 0-235's get a lot of hours on them and do seem to last... but the rate would be $15/hr cheaper on fuel alone if pilots had incentive to run at 75 or 65% best economy book instead of 75% best power.
Not to mention the maintenance is done by tach time, so the oil changes, 50hr's would be less frequent. Maybe worth 5 bucks an hour.
NineThreeKilo
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Most hobbs meters I've seen are independent of the master, heck you think you're the first one to think of turning the master off :wink2:
When I was building my hours, I tried it once, just to see, and sure enough a tenth rolled over with the master off.
Like the others said, most go off oil pressure
When I was building my hours, I tried it once, just to see, and sure enough a tenth rolled over with the master off.
Like the others said, most go off oil pressure
MassPilot
Cleared for Takeoff
I once forgot to turn the master off until after I got the plane pushed back, tied down, packed up all my belongings, etc. I'm very glad that the Hobbs on that plane runs off oil pressure.
MAKG1
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Many air-cooled engines allow redline operation for a limited time only, for heat management reasons. Even an Archer has a placard to reduce power to 2650 RPM after 5 minutes. Redline is 2700. Not exactly a high performance aircraft.
High RPM increases piston and cylinder wear (mainly taper) and puts increased stress on connecting rods, crankpins and wrist pins. The valvetrain also takes a beating due to the very long pushrods. TBO takes "typical" use into account, which may or may not include that. Having said that, the engine will not break from that alone (unless CHT is allowed to get out of hand), but its life might be decreased.
stearmann4
Pre-Flight
I'm certainly not as eloquent as some others on the site, so I'll paraphrase. I've caught (and fired) one young CFI who flew for 3 different flights with the master turned off and was finally discovered when the fuel receipts didn't add up. Yet, another young pilot who thought the first CFI was pretty slick by turning off the master, believed it would be ok to take a J-3 for a quick trip around the patch while the owner (me) was out of town and it was in a community hangar. Nobody would known because Cubs don't usually have tachs or Hobbs...except for the vibration sensing tach he didn't see mounted on the spar cover.
Both have been black listed from aviation in our region. As you can tell I'm fairly passionate because I have first hand experience. If it's even crossed your mind, you're pretty much a turd in my book. That kind of stuff doesn't come into the normal thought process of responsible citizens and pilots.
Mike-
MultiMediaWill
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Please explain to me how it could have possibly not crossed my mind if I was reading on another website and came upon it. I did not sit down one day and think "hmmm how can I scam the FBO?" No. You need to relax and understand I would never do this. I am an honest person who rarely lies. Heck, throughout my entire school life from kindergarden to 12th grade I never got a detention, suspension, referral, nothing. Never have gotten a ticket. I play by the rules. Clearly you jump to conclusions because of a bad experience. It would make no sense for me to do this because around Iowa City all the flight school are owned by the same person so even if I did scam one of the FBO's I would be unable to fly any where around me. Obviously I wouldn't do that cause I love flying.
I think of everything, thinking of options is not the same as accepting them. Theft is part of human nature, that's why the activity exists, to deny it is futile, to not act on it is simple, to think on it is entertainment.
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Tex_Mike
Pre-takeoff checklist
Look man- right there is the problem. You are clearly saying that you would not consider doing this because of SELFISH reasons. Not because it is flat out wrong. The REASONS you do and do not do things is what defines moral character.
Everyone is passing judgement on what you wrote and in my opinion they are correct in their assessments. They speak to who you are as a person today. No one is saying that you can not change your views about the issue. I suggest you give some thought as to why you choose not to break the law or other moral/societal codes and if your answer is always because something bad will happen to you then perhaps you have some growing to do as a person.
VanDy
Cleared for Takeoff
I agree with you on this one. Thinking is good for the ole noggin. Having recently finished an Ethics/Moral class this thread reminds me of advice Socrates gave to a man with anger/ethical/moral issues, it was along the lines of 'if your actions (not thoughts -my insertion) are ethical and moral, you are ethical" at least that's pretty close to what I remember reading
-VanDy
VanDy
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You mean to tell me that you have never even thought 56mph in a 55? According to what you are saying that is just as bad as how he posed his question, and if you have, then well hi I must me be the pot, nice to meet you kettle. Add the sarcasm font to the last bit
Seems to me that if he had merely worded his question differently, such as 'do fbo's have a safety built in that keeps time tracked if the master is switched off to prevent people from stealing?' His reception would have been much different... Z
-VanDy
MultiMediaWill
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Will
The moral/ethical reasons are obvious. Did you forget the part of the post where I mentioned I'm a good person and I hate theives? Clearly you did. You are just looking for a reason to hate on this topic.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Will, what a moronic idea...
I'm kinda feeling for OP here....
Part of my job description involves looking for ways to game a system and plugging or being aware of those holes. (I'm a computer programmer).
However I'm always thinking about ways you could beat the system and I've always just thought that way. Never took any goods/services/money. But to me it's more about 'solving the puzzle'. Well that and the ocassional prank.
But really, none of you ever think about how it could be done? You've never been watching some murder mystery/law&order type show and thought about how you could hide a body and get away with it?
Really? Maybe I'm weird.
Part of my job description involves looking for ways to game a system and plugging or being aware of those holes. (I'm a computer programmer).
However I'm always thinking about ways you could beat the system and I've always just thought that way. Never took any goods/services/money. But to me it's more about 'solving the puzzle'. Well that and the ocassional prank.
But really, none of you ever think about how it could be done? You've never been watching some murder mystery/law&order type show and thought about how you could hide a body and get away with it?
Really? Maybe I'm weird.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
No, I've never contemplated homicide.
LandSickness
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fri tale
I like caper movies, from Oceans 11 to the Heist to the Score, I love movies where people get away with crimes, so much so that I've often plotted "perfect crime" scenarios with my buddies in select company. It's not something I would ever do, but they're fun to figure out, in select company. Some things you can't discuss in general company without facing the wrath of public opinion.
You're in a forum full of not only Pilots, but business owners, parents, and GA advocates, none of which are an ideal audience for open discussion of crimes against general aviation. Wrong forum, dude.
You're in a forum full of not only Pilots, but business owners, parents, and GA advocates, none of which are an ideal audience for open discussion of crimes against general aviation. Wrong forum, dude.
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douglas393
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Sorry, I disagree. When you think of options you think of things you are willing to think about doing. To me theft is not an option. Murder, rape, assault, etc are activities as well. Should we just let everyone out of the prisons because what they did is human nature and thus okay. What separates you from the common or uncommon criminal is either have more will power, or feel the consequences of getting caught are not worth it. You may tell yourself that all because you do not act on your list of options makes you moral, but I am not too sure.
I am not certainly perfect, but my list of options on how to obtain something does not include theft, at least not since I was about five. If it was a matter of life and death my answer would be different, but so that I can fly a plane, I do not think so.
I think you are a businessman, you may think it is okay to think about stealing to get what you want, but I wonder how you would feel if someone thought about stealing from you.
Watching a movie about theft is entertainment for some, thinking about stealing from your FBO, I think not.
Doug
Exactly, it's what we do that defines character. We should explore all of our nature in thought and come to terms with it, it's part of who we are, each of us. To deny ourselves thought is to deny the purpose of our existence, it's the only thing we do that can be harvested by the universe.
Incorrect, I think of things that exist and how they are achieved.
I can see that point of view, but I bet this discussion causes some pilots and FBO operators to take a closer look at those hour meters and that has some ligitimate value.
This is exactly what people in my industry do- think up ways hackers might get in so we can watch out for it or implement countermeasures.
VanDy
Cleared for Takeoff
so by the train of thought that appears to be the majority census here... Anybody that comes up with a security measure that prevents a crime that hasn't yet been thought of/acted upon/ or whatever is a thief? Because after all, he had to find a weakness or way to cheat the system that wasn't yet prevented, how dare he think of a way to LEGALLY sell a product thatthere might be a need for. After all, no honest and ethical person would have ever thought of that.
MultiMediaWill
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Will
Great point. I'm glad someone here isn't jumping to conclusions and assuming.
LandSickness
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fri tale
I'm not saying you're wrong for thinking what you're thinking. I'm just saying it's proved to be a tough sell in this forum.
Jim Logajan
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Or fly a balloon or an ultralight that doesn't have any usage recording devices.
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Snorting his way across the USA
The two men were running on the treadmill discussing matters of God, country and apple pie when three police officers burst in to the gym, and tackled man exercising in front of them on an elliptical trainer, binding and cuffing him.
“Good Lord man, what has this man done?” Asked a man on the treadmill.
“Step back please, sir.” The officer looked right and left, and approached the man on the treadmill and spoke in a low voice. “He committed a premeditated criminal preplanning act of the second degree.”
“Premeditated criminal preplanning act of the second degree?”
“You know, commonly referred to as a ‘thought crime.’”
“What on this Godly earth could he have been thinking?”
“See the chick on leotard in the window of the step aerobics class in front of the machine he was on?”
“Oh, my Lord….”
“Yeah well she’s a flight instructor and owns an FBO. He’s a student pilot. He was mentally reviewing procedures that could potentially bypass the Hobbs meter on one of her airplanes, thereby cheating her of revenue. You can’t be thinking crap like that you know.”
“Nopity nopity no, officer! Absolutely ziggity not! Shame on him!”
“Good Lord man, what has this man done?” Asked a man on the treadmill.
“Step back please, sir.” The officer looked right and left, and approached the man on the treadmill and spoke in a low voice. “He committed a premeditated criminal preplanning act of the second degree.”
“Premeditated criminal preplanning act of the second degree?”
“You know, commonly referred to as a ‘thought crime.’”
“What on this Godly earth could he have been thinking?”
“See the chick on leotard in the window of the step aerobics class in front of the machine he was on?”
“Oh, my Lord….”
“Yeah well she’s a flight instructor and owns an FBO. He’s a student pilot. He was mentally reviewing procedures that could potentially bypass the Hobbs meter on one of her airplanes, thereby cheating her of revenue. You can’t be thinking crap like that you know.”
“Nopity nopity no, officer! Absolutely ziggity not! Shame on him!”
Jim Logajan
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I call BS on that story. No way can any human walk on a treadmill, talk about god, country, apple pie, and think of Hobbs meter bypassing all at the same time.
Some of us have trouble just chewing gum and walking at the same time.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
And that is why I will never allow any of my nice aircraft to be rented out. Nope, never.
And that is why you really just can't rent anything nice.
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Snorting his way across the USA
I dunno, I can think about food, wine, flying and the other thing all at the same time while exercising....
JHW
En-Route
where this does come into play (still illegal but you can argue moral vs immoral) is when exporting a plane to a country that does not allow importation with any appliances over published TBO. More than a few planes have crossed the ocean with the tach cables unplugged.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
With thieves like the OP I can see why.