Fly with master switch off to save money?

Will, there's a whole lot of people here who can't mentally disconnect online discussion from real-world actions. I wouldn't let it get to you.
 
someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet-300x300.jpg
 
Tecnically, turning the master off and reducing the electrical load on the alternator will save money in reduced fuel burn. I don't want to calculate the savings, but I know some engineers that will.
 
I so wish I was sober enough to make a contributory post here

Geico is not an idiot.
 
MultiMediaWill said:
The moral/ethical reasons are obvious. Did you forget the part of the post where I mentioned I'm a good person and I hate theives? Clearly you did. You are just looking for a reason to hate on this topic.
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The only thing that was obvious to me was your failure to reference the moral/ethical issues with turning off the master switch. In fact the focus on your original post was that it would be done to steal time. I think this reference made it pretty clear that you were not concerned about the moral/ethical issues with your question. I think it's kinda late to come to the party saying this was "obvious" so I call BS on this one.

I assure you that I am not looking to hate. In fact I hope that you grow as a person so that these types of thoughts do not enter your consciousnesses. To be honest that is the only reason I chose to participate in this discussion.

Given your original post I am curious. What is the reason you hate thieves? I think your answer my help us all understand your true moral character. Give it some thought and let us know.
 
VanDy said:
You mean to tell me that you have never even thought 56mph in a 55? According to what you are saying that is just as bad as how he posed his question, and if you have, then well hi I must me be the pot, nice to meet you kettle. Add the sarcasm font to the last bit :D

-VanDy
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Interesting quote, I believe from Ghandi, but not sure.

Watch your thoughts, they become words.
Watch your words, they become actions.
Watch your actions, they become habits.
Watch your habits, they become your character.
Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.

I've always found a lot of wisdom in this quote. That said, it does seem that there are quite a few thought police on POA. Seeing all the vitriol this post stirred up has made me ponder a bit.

1) I think about stuff.
2) I think about what I thought about.
3) I speak.

Seems to me that maybe the OP failed to act on step 2 on my list. He's getting crucified. It also seems that there are a lot of perfect people on this board who clearly live in glass houses because they have NEVER had a bad thought and are perfectly just in throwing the first (and second, and third, and fourth, and ...) stone.

There are clearly those on this board who think they are morally superior to others - they've never had an impure thought.

This has led them to speak harshly to someone they don't really know ... to be mean.

I've noticed that for some of these individuals, this isn't the first harsh word they've thrown, so it appear to be a habit.

This should make one ponder their character a bit.
 
iflyforfun said:
1) I think about stuff.
2) I think about what I thought about.
3) I speak.

Seems to me that maybe the OP failed to act on step 2 on my list..........
This should make one ponder their character a bit.
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Fair enough. I personally thought calling this guy a thief was to harsh. I get the point about glass houses, black pots, and how no one is perfect. I sure am not. You have to admit though, the OP specifically asked if he can save money by doing this. He opened himself up to feedback on this one. Not a good idea to open your private thoughts to the world.

When I was a teenager you bet I had had immoral thoughts. I might have even acted on one or two but I as I grew older I developed a much deeper moral character. I can honestly say I do not think about how to get away with things for personal gain. I do like the crimes shows and think about how one can get away with crime. But I do so without the motive of personal gain. I think it's a silly comparison to the OP's question.
I said it before and I will say it again, I am not hating. I do want this guy to grow.

This is not a matter of being thought police. In case anyone missed it we are discussing the OP's writing, not his thoughts. Two very different things.
 
Tex_Mike said:
What is the reason you hate thieves?
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If I may... my modest tale on thieves and hate:

Oregon has an estate/inheritance tax (a.k.a. "death tax"). An attempt to repeal it was on the ballot this month - it did not pass. There was one commercial that was repeated constantly on television for why it shouldn't be repealed (and pretty much summarized the entirety of the argument to keep the tax): repealing it only helped 2% of the people. Oh - and that 2% were rich. And the state needs the money.

So the morality and ethics of taking part of an estate precisely because the owner had the misfortune to die never came into it - or if it did, it came in under the dictum that a collective action is moral and ethical so long as it is good for the majority. The impact on the minority is of no consequence.

I don't hate the majority that voted that way (who would be considered thieves if they personally grabbed part of an estate) - I'm just terribly disappointed and sad for them. Humanity can be noble at times - but those moments seem so rare these days.
 
Tex_Mike said:
Fair enough. I personally thought calling this guy a thief was to harsh. I get the point about glass houses, black pots, and how no one is perfect. I sure am not. You have to admit though, the OP specifically asked if he can save money by doing this. He opened himself up to feedback on this one. Not a good idea to open your private thoughts to the world.

When I was a teenager you bet I had had immoral thoughts. I might have even acted on one or two but I as I grew older I developed a much deeper moral character. I can honestly say I do not think about how to get away with things for personal gain. I do like the crimes shows and think about how one can get away with crime. But I do so without the motive of personal gain. I think it's a silly comparison to the OP's question.
I said it before and I will say it again, I am not hating. I do want this guy to grow.

This is not a matter of being thought police. In case anyone missed it we are discussing the OP's writing, not his thoughts. Two very different things.
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... long post deleted ...

The "I would never think of that" outrage and the "I've never considered doing XYZ because I'm clearly superior to you" lines of thought led to my line of thinking
- think, say, habit, makes me wonder about the character of those that say "I'm better than you".

... more thoughts deleted, (think, think of what I thought, speak :^).

To be clear Tex_MEX, it is not you doing this ... you've been harsh but fair. Some others hear are clearly superior to me and if I forget it, I'm sure they'll remind me :wink2:
 
On character....

Back in the early 80's my high school offered several college classes granting credit through a local major university. The teachers attended a summer program where they learned the materials and students read the same texts and took the same exams as college freshman attending the university. These courses were offered to juniors and seniors and were restricted to students with the best academic records.

I was taking psychology 101 taught by a HS teacher who was working on his Ph.D.

The course had something like 11 multiple choice tests and a final exam. The teacher introduced a new method of administering the test. He would distribute the test and have us take it normally. Then, instead of collecting the test, he would have the answer key on a desk in the front of the room. We were instructed to consult the key, mark our wrong answers, return to our desks to review what we'd gotten wrong, place a grade on the test, and finally submit the exam.

This occurred for something like the first 8 exams. For exam 9 he was out sick and a substitute administered it normally, collecting the tests without an opportunity to review the key. The next class he distributed the uncorrected exams, offered the key, and collected the now self-graded exams.

Unknown to the students he'd photocopied them prior to self-grading and this unusual exam structure was a study designed to collect data for his Ph.D. program. The result - over 80% of the students had modified answers on their exams to improve their grade. These we're the national honors students, the AP students, the valedictorians, and the students headed to the best colleges. (For what it's worth I was also sick the day of the 9th exam).

I offer this simply as empirical data regarding the behavior of 16 to 18 year old high achieving students offered an opportunity to cheat in an apparently consequence free environment.

The prolog - he read the class the riot act on a Friday. Threatened academic suspensions, censures, and lost college opportunities. This lead to a weekend filled with much fear and regret as students contemplated their future. Ultimately the school did nothing and the remaining exams were administered in the same unusual fashion.
 
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In my ride the Hobbs is controlled by the key (which also controls the starter). Turning the key off will turn off the Hobbs and nothing else (mag switches are separate). Turning off the master disconnects the battery, but does not disconnect the alternator so if the engine is running everything electric will keep running, but you won't charge the battery. To disconnect the alternator, you have to pull the breaker.

The key is to understand all the systems on the airplane you are flying. If you don't you really won't know what to do when the **** hits the fan.
 
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iflyforfun said:
... long post deleted ...

The "I would never think of that" outrage and the "I've never considered doing XYZ
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OKay....
because I'm clearly superior to you"
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Nobody said that except you. Scan the entire string with word. It only appears in this quote, from you.
....lines of thought led to my line of thinking.
- think, say, habit, makes me wonder about the character of those that say "I'm better than you".
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....just please be careful here, you might be really reflecting on yourself......
 
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MultiMediaWill said:
Well the 100 hour is based on tach time. The tach time wouldn't get screwed up by this. Not sure how it could danger other renters.
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The 100 hour and other maintenance is done by time in service, which might be the Tach or it might be the Hobbs.
 
"The thought manifests as the word,
The word manifests as the deed,
The deed develops into habit,
And the habit hardens into character,
So, watch the thought
And it's ways with care,
And let it spring from love
Born out of respect for all beings."
The Buddha

Not Ghandi although, I imagine Ghandi most likely said this.
 
jesse said:
Considering how most places have you write down the tach time..and cross reference that stuff..I think you'll just find yourself at best not being able to fly the airplane again and at worse talking to a judge.

The fuel consumption also isn't going to add up. Just a stupid idea.
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:yeahthat:

My FBO makes us write both times down after each flight.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Most hobbs meters I've seen are independent of the master, heck you think you're the first one to think of turning the master off :wink2:

When I was building my hours, I tried it once, just to see, and sure enough a tenth rolled over with the master off.

Like the others said, most go off oil pressure
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A 172 I used to rent had a Hobbs that turned whenever the master was on, regardless of whether the engine was running. That was the only one I've seen like that.
 
Jeanie said:
"The thought manifests as the word,
The word manifests as the deed,
The deed develops into habit,
And the habit hardens into character,
So, watch the thought
And it's ways with care,
And let it spring from love
Born out of respect for all beings."
The Buddha

Not Ghandi although, I imagine Ghandi most likely said this.
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Fancy way of saying what my grandfather said...

"Don't say stupid **** if you don't mean it."

:)
 
Palmpilot said:
A 172 I used to rent had a Hobbs that turned whenever the master was on, regardless of whether the engine was running. That was the only one I've seen like that.
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Now.. That is NOT right...:no::nonod:.

Be curious as to why they wired it like that.:dunno:
 
N801BH said:
Be curious as to why they wired it like that.:dunno:
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I never found out. I suppose it's possible that the oil pressure switch failed, and maybe the mechanics, who also happened to own that particular plane, just didn't want to bother fixing it. (Later, they balked at fixing a fuel tank leak, which is why I don't rent there anymore!)
 
That wasn't 27H by any chance? That aircraft has all kinds of electrical weirdness. Or was it a different, much larger, club located around the corner?
 
This thread has gone fully retarded. There is no such thing as bad thought, if one hasn't taken anything, one is not a thief. Way too much blowhard bull**** and bluster here, and apparently there are those in this thread who have no sin on their record.
 
MAKG1 said:
That wasn't 27H by any chance? That aircraft has all kinds of electrical weirdness. Or was it a different, much larger, club located around the corner?
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It wasn't, but I would prefer not to publicly identify the plane or the operator. (I had memberships at three rental places at one point.)
 
Palmpilot said:
A 172 I used to rent had a Hobbs that turned whenever the master was on, regardless of whether the engine was running. That was the only one I've seen like that.
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I know of a rental like that as well. I always cringed envisioning the $155/hour rate clicking away while listening to AWOS before a flight.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I know of a rental like that as well. I always cringed envisioning the $155/hour rate clicking away while listening to AWOS before a flight.
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Isn't that what the telephone is for?

Though it would **** me off to pay a Hobbs rate to check the flap motors and lights on a Cessna.

I try to keep the master on for as short a time as possible on the Cessnas, since I don't trust those batteries to have much more than just enough charge to crank the engine.
 
MAKG1 said:
Isn't that what the telephone is for?

Though it would **** me off to pay a Hobbs rate to check the flap motors and lights on a Cessna.

I try to keep the master on for as short a time as possible on the Cessnas, since I don't trust those batteries to have much more than just enough charge to crank the engine.
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Says the guy posting from Central California with cell phone towers near airports...
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
I know of a rental like that as well. I always cringed envisioning the $155/hour rate clicking away while listening to AWOS before a flight.
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I started using a handheld for that purpose.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Says the guy posting from Central California with cell phone towers near airports...
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They don't have landlines where you live?

I'm quite aware that cell phones don't work everywhere. Including some airports in Central California. But it's hard to imagine how an FBO or even an airport manager's office can work without a telephone.
 
Palmpilot said:
I started using a handheld for that purpose.
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Hmmm.. A certified plane, wired with the Hobbs meter always running when the master is on is and the motor is NOT running is illegal.. To my knowledge no plane has that electrical architecture that the FAA approved...:dunno::nonod:...

I would not be using a handheld, I would be using a phone.... to call the FSDO.:yes:..IMHO.
 
I have been following this thread since opt first was posted. I have been criticized for being one of those who feels he is holier than thou. I take the criticism in stride. As I have said I am not perfect but I do not see the entertainment value of fantasizing on how to rip off others, just the way I am and I am not going to apologize for this.

What I do not understand is why people are willing to sacrifice safety to save a few dollars. My question is how much do you really save by getting the AWOS by telephone or handheld? I like to check the AWOS just prior t take off just to make sure nothing has changed. The run up takes more time than checking the AWOS do you not do this to save money as well.

I know I am in the minority about this but such is life.

Doug
 
ja_user said:
That is what everyone else does, rather than stick it to the FBO that probably isn't making money off the rental anyway.
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In a typical leaseback arrangement, you are sticking most of that savings to a fellow pilot and aircraft owner.

-Skip
 
N801BH said:
Hmmm.. A certified plane, wired with the Hobbs meter always running when the master is on is and the motor is NOT running is illegal.. To my knowledge no plane has that electrical architecture that the FAA approved...:dunno::nonod:...

I would not be using a handheld, I would be using a phone.... to call the FSDO.:yes:..IMHO.
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Now that you mention it, I guess the fact that it didn't conform to the wiring diagram in the POH would indicate that it didn't conform to the type certificate.
 
douglas393 said:
My question is how much do you really save by getting the AWOS by telephone or handheld?
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Just to clarify, the reason I mentioned getting the ATIS with a handheld is that the Hobbs meter was running before I started the engine.
 
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