Fly approaches at Airport with closed runway

TimRF79

TimRF79

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Is there any regulation that prohibits flying practice approaches towards a (temporary ) closed runway?
I could not think of anyone, but just wanted to check the hive-brain
 
The biggest issue in my mind is the commotion you might cause for people working in the runway, if you're making a "low" approach to a runway that's closed due to construction, maintenance, or removing an incapacitated aircraft from the runway. I wouldn't do so without coordination with those involved in the closure of the runway.
 
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TimRF79 said:
Is there any regulation that prohibits flying practice approaches towards a (temporary ) closed runway?
I could not think of anyone, but just wanted to check the hive-brain
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Last month I tried to fly a GPS approach to the missed into W35 and had to duck through a layer to get there. It was NOTAM'ed closed (using the runway for drag racing). I called Potomac Approach to get picked up IFR for the approach. The controller had to check with his supervisor but came back and denied me. Said they can't clear me on an approach to a closed runway. Just an evidence of one.
 
No regulation that I am aware of. I've flown plenty of approaches (hundreds?) to a closed runway and the controllers have always obliged but warned me that the approach was to a closed runway.

If this is at a nontowered airport you might consider terminating the approach earlier than normal or not overflying the runway depending on the reason for its closure. If it is at a towered airport the controllers may provide some special instructions if necessary.
 
mondtster said:
No regulation that I am aware of. I've flown plenty of approaches (hundreds?) to a closed runway and the controllers have always obliged but warned me that the approach was to a closed runway.

If this is at a nontowered airport you might consider terminating the approach earlier than normal or not overflying the runway depending on the reason for its closure. If it is at a towered airport the controllers may provide some special instructions if necessary.
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Non towered and rwy closure for resurface work.
Would probably fly on the weekend while no one is working anyhow.
 
Brad Z said:
The biggest issue in my mind is the commotion you might cause for people working in the runway, if you're making a "low" approach to a runway that's closed due to construction, maintenance, or removing an incapacitated aircraft from the runway. I wouldn't do so without coordination with those involved in the closure of the runway.
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“Senator? Is that you?” LOL
 
I don’t believe so. Not quoting regs or anything- a few weeks back I did this at JVL (towered), was asked to initiate my missed a little early due to mowers or inspection crew - or something. It was a temporary closure, I don’t know if it’s relevant.
 
mondtster said:
No regulation that I am aware of. I've flown plenty of approaches (hundreds?) to a closed runway and the controllers have always obliged but warned me that the approach was to a closed runway.
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I may be wrong, or maybe its just a local thing, but I don't think controllers will allow it anymore. I know we had an incident years ago here where a larger twin turboprop landed on a closed runway that was clearly marked and NOTAMed closed, but center cleared them for the approach so they landed.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I may be wrong, or maybe its just a local thing, but I don't think controllers will allow it anymore. I know we had an incident years ago here where a larger twin turboprop landed on a closed runway that was clearly marked and NOTAMed closed, but center cleared them for the approach so they landed.
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I was actively instructing up to the beginning of 2020 and never had any trouble flying approaches to a closed runway. I'm assuming your incident was well before that.
 
The times I did it, or (listened in on one), approach assigned a minimum descent of 500'agl.
We always presumed it was to not scare the crap out of workers, maybe to provide a greater radius of action if the a/c lost an engine close in.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The times I did it, or (listened in on one), approach assigned a minimum descent of 500'agl.
We always presumed it was to not scare the crap out of workers, maybe to provide a greater radius of action if the a/c lost an engine close in.
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That would make sense, in the terms of not operating within "500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure". I'm not sure a practice approach fits under the definition of "for the purposes of taking off or landing."
 
Pugs said:
Last month I tried to fly a GPS approach to the missed into W35 and had to duck through a layer to get there. It was NOTAM'ed closed (using the runway for drag racing). I called Potomac Approach to get picked up IFR for the approach. The controller had to check with his supervisor but came back and denied me. Said they can't clear me on an approach to a closed runway. Just an evidence of one.
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Sounds like a perfect situation for:
"Approach, N123 requests cruise clearance to W35".

A cruise clearance is approval to fly any approach at your destination.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/ifr-cruise-clearance-how-to-use-it/

(Not that it would have occurred to me at the time either, though.)
 
On my instrument checkride my circle to land approach was to a closed runway.
 
91.119 you obviously aren't landing if the runway is closed.
 
Doing check rides from Gallup requires a trip to Farmington to do the required ILS approaches. While checking weather I noticed both runways were closed at Farmington. I called the tower and asked if we could do a couple ILS approaches to the missed.

Not a problem was the answer. So off to Farmington and did our 2 ILS approaches. The nice part was there were no other planes around to get in the way...
 
Brad Z said:
The biggest issue in my mind is the commotion you might cause for people working in the runway,
Click to expand...
Years ago I worked for the Old Dominion Speedway. The operators of that track would go down to New London (VA) once a month and take over the airport for the purpose of drag races. One day, Margy and I were out flying on a drag day so we decided to make a few passes (1000 AGL over the runway) rocking our wings. I could look down there and see my boss from ODS waving at me.

The next week I was back at the speedway and he asked "Was that you over New London last week?" I said it was. He said he was pretty sure it was me, but his brother was having a fit because he thought that someone hadn't seen the closure NOTAM and was going to try to land there. Dick was going "Relax, he works for me."
 
If the airport is closed and you can’t land, why would it be necessary to fly lower contained in:
91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
 
I'm in the airport engineering business, I've seen approaches flown to closed runways on many occasions. No matter what, just make sure to announce your intentions on CTAF not to land, it is required that there is always someone on the construction crew listening to the radio, and they do appreciate it.
 
The 91.119 twist is interesting.

I remember when FAA expressly allowed approaches to the new DEN before the runways were open.

Nobody was violated for .119 either. And nobody stayed above 500 AGL. Certainly not above 1000 AGL.

And one could argue it was already a congested area.

I’m pretty sure APA and the TRACON allowed ILS approaches to the usual break off point (Lincoln Ave, not quite DH yet) during the repaving of 17L/35R also.
 
On the other hand, the FAA did write up a guy for making a low pass over a runway without intention to land for violating 91.119 (500' from persons, vessels, vehicles, or structures).
 
As someone that does airport design/construction, PLEASE don't do that during construction on the runway. It will scare the hell out of the workers and could cause an accident on the ground as they're scrambling to get out of your way. Or, there may be other obstructions there during the construction you're not aware of (cranes, temporary structures, etc.) depending on what the work is. It's not worth the risk to you and others if the runway is closed for construction, IMO.
 
The other corollary is that no matter what the NOTAM says, the runway isn't open until the guy gets done picking up the giant X at the end of the runway. We had a case a few years back where a Bonanza pilot looks at his watch and decides the airport is open, heads out and takes off narrowly missing the worker picking up the big X.
 
midwestpa24 said:
None that I can think of. Just note that localizer or ILS approaches are supposed to have their ground equipment shut off during a runway closure.
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That's kinda a good idea I guess. Make sure no one boo boos and does an ILS by mistake and hurts someone. Now they should follow thru and shut off some satellites to make sure no one LPV's thru a crowd of hard hats patching holes on the runway.:fingerwag:
 
RussR said:
Sounds like a perfect situation for:
"Approach, N123 requests cruise clearance to W35".

A cruise clearance is approval to fly any approach at your destination.

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/ifr-cruise-clearance-how-to-use-it/

(Not that it would have occurred to me at the time either, though.)
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Maybe. I guess I'd have to get the pop-up IFR (or maybe that's implied). I'm not sure they'd give it to me given the two Class D's and the Dulles multiple STARs through there - Still, a good tool to keep in mind, thanks.
 
At a nearby Class C airport, when the main runway was closed several days for construction (for runway lighting), the ILS was turned off, and approach would not allow me to do any kind of approach VFR for that particular runway.

No explanation, but I guessed it was for the safety of the construction workers.
 
Approaches to a Closed Runway *T*E*R “Can you clear an aircraft for an ILS approach to a closed runway and circle to land on another runway?” The simple answer is yes. There are times when an aircraft may ask for an approach to a runway that is closed, intending to land on another runway. This might be because the weather makes the approach preferable or necessary, or it could be for training. Upon completion of an instrument approach procedure to a closed runway, pilots may execute the published missed approach (or alternate issued instructions), side-step to a parallel runway (where allowed) or circle to another runway for landing (where circling is authorized). Controllers should check to be sure that the ILS (or other NAVAID) is transmitting and that it is useable. Some facilities may turn off ILS systems to runways that are closed. Also, make sure the approach lights are on when necessary. FAA Order JO 7110.65W, Paragraph 3-4-5, Approach Lights, anticipates approaches to one runway with a landing on another. If a pilot requests to takeoff, land or touch-and-go on a closed or unsafe runway, inform the pilot that the runway is closed or unsafe in accordance with FAA Order JO 7110.65W, Paragraph 3-3-2, Closed/Unsafe Runway Information. FAA Order JO 7110.65W, Paragraph 3-4-10, Runway Edge Lights, requires that edge lights must not be turned on for a runway to be used for takeoff or landing when there is a NOTAM closing that runway. Clear communications are the key to avoiding misunderstandings. Always provide pilots with complete and timely information about the airport/runway conditions and other pertinent information (FAA Order JO 7110.65W, Paragraph 3-3-3, Timely Information).

From: Air Traffic Procedures Bulletin (faa.gov)
 
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