First of 4 Pilots indicted for lying on Medical is Sentenced.

Salty said:
This forum has the biggest collection of 100% honest people I've ever run across. If only the world were as you seem to think it is. I'd love to believe none of you have ever lied, ever.



But I don't.
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Well believe it or not, there are those who don’t lie about having disabilities and don’t make up disabilities that they most likely don’t have. I’ve never lied on my 8500-8 and never lied on any employment application. I’d like to believe I’m in the majority but with what I’ve seen first hand, I sometimes wonder. Morality goes out the window when money is involved.

Not saying this is what you’re insinuating but to say that the four pilots indicted is acceptable based on the fact that all people lie, is absurd. If we find that acceptable then where do we draw the line? How about this guy?

http://www.avstop.com/news_feb_2010/southwest_pilot_pleads_guilty_to_fraud.htm
 
Velocity173 said:
Well believe it or not, there are those who don’t lie about having disabilities and don’t make up disabilities that they most likely don’t have. I’ve never lied on my 8500-8 and never lied on any employment application. I’d like to believe I’m in the majority but with what I’ve seen first hand, I sometimes wonder. Morality goes out the window when money is involved.

Not saying this is what you’re insinuating but to say that the four pilots indicted is acceptable based on the fact that all people lie, is absurd. If we find that acceptable then where do we draw the line? How about this guy?

http://www.avstop.com/news_feb_2010/southwest_pilot_pleads_guilty_to_fraud.htm
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I didn't say it was acceptable, nor did I say they shouldn't get punished. But acting like they sat down and decided to lie to get a disability payment is naive. It's not that simple. We all make mistakes, and given certain temptation at certain points in life, we could all make a mistake this stupid. You'll never catch me pretending like I'm infallible and would never do anything like this. Sitting on my comfy couch I can think that, but I know that it rarely is that black and white when someone makes this kind of stupid decision. I just don't like demonizing them like they are evil. Doesn't mean I think they shouldn't pay the price for their actions.
 
Salty said:
But acting like they sat down and decided to lie to get a disability payment is naive.
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When you work next to guys that brag about doing just that, it doesn't feel naive. I don't have a strong opinion one way or another since I'm not military - but I've been told many times over the years about how it's 'free money' and "I would've been stupid not to take advantage of it". I liken it to the same justification guys use to lie about where they live to avoid state taxes - if you're sticking it to the government, who cares?
 
kayoh190 said:
When you work next to guys that brag about doing just that, it doesn't feel naive. I don't have a strong opinion one way or another since I'm not military - but I've been told many times over the years about how it's 'free money' and "I would've been stupid not to take advantage of it". I liken it to the same justification guys use to lie about where they live to avoid state taxes - if you're sticking it to the government, who cares?
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Yeah, that's more despicable. But I don't think the average guy is thinking that hard about it.
 
kayoh190 said:
Many of those dudes *love* to brag about it too. ;) How any of it was reported I dunno, though. Never asked.
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Those are the ones that chap my ass. Bragging about having a 100% rating and how much extra money they get above normal retirement and there’s nothing “really” wrong with them... so irritating to hear as a tax payer.
 
:D
kayoh190 said:
When you work next to guys that brag about doing just that, it doesn't feel naive. I don't have a strong opinion one way or another since I'm not military - but I've been told many times over the years about how it's 'free money' and "I would've been stupid not to take advantage of it". I liken it to the same justification guys use to lie about where they live to avoid state taxes - if you're sticking it to the government, who cares?
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Yep, that’s exactly how most look at it. When I got back from my VA brief, I told the guys at work “you wouldn’t believe it. It’s like a get rich quick real estate lecture.” One of the guys said “well it’s free money for the taking. I’m claiming as many things as I can.” Heard about a year ago he’s pulling 90 % disability. Heard just recently he’s still flying as a contractor. Got other stories as well but I won’t go there.

Another thing that should have everyone scratching their heads. How did these pilots pass their military flight physicals if they we’re so disabled? Simple, they find out which ailments are waiverable and which aren’t. Then, the hardcore things like PTSD or sleep apnea are brought up that final year in. They’re not stupid. You don’t bring up you have PTSD because you got food poisoning from the chow hall during deployment. That’s a chance in getting grounded. Bring it up the final year on your VA physical, then neglect to claim it on the 8500-8 when you get out.

To be clear, I’m not saying vets shouldn’t get any disability. I know @TCABM has talked of his skin cancer claim while he was in. That’s not something that’s gonna pay 80-100 %. He’s lucky if he gets a few bucks tax free a month in retirement for that. It’s also not something you can hide from your flight surgeon. My problem is the rampant abuse of the system where you have vets getting thousands tax free a month. Your tax dollars and mine going to pay for essentially a lavish lifestyle when in reality they’re as fit as you or I.
 
Velocity173 said:
:D

Yep, that’s exactly how most look at it. When I got back from my VA brief, I told the guys at work “you wouldn’t believe it. It’s like a get rich quick real estate lecture.” One of the guys said “well it’s free money for the taking. I’m claiming as many things as I can.” Heard about a year ago he’s pulling 90 % disability. Heard just recently he’s still flying as a contractor. Got other stories as well but I won’t go there.
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It was the same for me when I got out. They acted like I was crazy for not claiming some BS...”for goodness sake you were in Iraq during the war”. It’s a shame that the actions of some tarnish the optics of this for those that should be getting it for the service to their country. I too have head shaking stories that will be left unsaid.
 
Oh another story on how the VA pushes these claims on vets. Friend of mine a few days ago sent me FB message that his local VA rep was working to get him a higher disability rating. Said “are you sure you don’t have ringing in the ears from your artillery days?” Heard the same thing from a pilot I used to work with. He just completed his VA physical that day and the VA convinced him he had tinnitus. So every four years he passed his audiology test on his “long form” physical but yet now that he’s leaving the service, the VA has decided he has tinnitus? Give me a break.
 
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Radar Contact said:
It was the same for me when I got out. They acted like I was crazy for not claiming some BS...”for goodness sake you were in Iraq during the war”. It’s a shame that the actions of some tarnish the optics of this for those that should be getting it for the service to their country. I too have head shaking stories that will be left unsaid.
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I remember at a separate brief that covered all retirement benefits the lady running it says “can you believe there are people out there that don’t claim medical disability? You’re not the same person you were 20 years ago.” I whispered to my friend next to me who was also retiring, “yeah, me lady.” :D While my friend was retiring one rank higher than me, I remember seeing on his retirement form that with disabilities, he would be making approx twice as much as me in retirement.

What’s amazing is you’ll see a lot of vets that are extremely defensive about getting those benefits. They think they’re these patriotic war heros and they talk themselves into deserving these benefits. Just the sequestration years ago where retirement COLA was frozen, everyone was all up in arms over it. God forbid you don’t get a few extra bucks a month with a freeze in the COLA increase!
 
Salty said:
Yeah, that's more despicable. But I don't think the average guy is thinking that hard about it.
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Funny, I have the exact opposite view. Agree the people taking the VA disability are probably just following along as they are coached to.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Funny, I have the exact opposite view. Agree the people taking the VA disability are probably just following along as they are coached to.
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I agree about that part. But bragging about it is dispicable.
 
Curious, an acquaintance from work said the disability percentage is largely based on the impact to your MOS.

Is that accurate?

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
tspear said:
Curious, an acquaintance from work said the disability percentage is largely based on the impact to your MOS.

Is that accurate?

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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No.


What is a disability rating?

We assign you a disability rating based on the severity of your disability. We express this rating as a percentage, representing how much your disability decreases your overall health and ability to function.

https://www.va.gov/disability/about-disability-ratings/

Basically, each condition has a rating or rating scale depending on severity and impact on you. VA uses VA math to calculate the combined ratings, going from highest percentage to lowest.

They start at 100% healthy, then subtract the highest rating. The result is now the new 100% healthy and the next highest rating is subtracted. Kind of like compound interest. Interestingly, it takes 4x 50% ratings to get to 100% disability, but the VA applies rounding in their decisions, so 94.5% disability bumps up to 100% disability.
 
When I searched on my phone, I did not see the article from VA. Not sure about the fuzzy math, but at least the explanation is pretty clear.

Tim
 
Friend on mine was a Ranger in Vietnam. He was shot through the arm and fully recovered. He also is partially deaf in one ear from artillery. He got a disability payment for his arm wound and zero for the permanent hearing loss. He figured it was a wash so never made an issue of it. Lots of weird stuff with the VA.

Cheers
 
Doc Holliday said:
So in our judicial system, do we have “guilty”, “not guilty” and “he got off”? o_O
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Happens all the time. Over 80% of cases are settled out of court with no admission of guilt and often sealed so nobody gets to know how the vast majority of cases actually go.

Keeps the lawyers well fed. Our system has been “You get as much Justice as you can afford,” my entire adult life.

The public laws and pretending the cases actually go before a jury of real peers is pretty much just for show, and has been for decades. Looks nice on paper and in children’s Social Studies/Civics books.

Kinda like the fallacies taught about how Bills get written by brilliant legislators who have only your best interests in mind. LOL.

Fairy tales to keep the GenPop appeased. 80/20 rule determines that it’s not reality.

Or as I like to say, “There’s a reason the Tax Attorney is the only guy on my airport that can afford two Warbirds.” That’s reality. He saves people that much money that a percentage of those cases makes him that wealthy...
 
Velocity173 said:
:D...My problem is the rampant abuse of the system where you have vets getting thousands tax free a month. Your tax dollars and mine going to pay for essentially a lavish lifestyle when in reality they’re as fit as you or I.
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Interestingly, the VA tallies up the most prevalent disabilities and publishes it yearly. AS of FY19, the cumulative data is below.
upload_2020-9-30_14-47-53.png

There's a lot of really good data in the VA annual report here.

I still stand behind my statement in the other thread that the VA compensation & benefits program is a prime example of what happens when the law of unintended consequences copulates with Congressional good idea fairies.

I'll also say that unless there's been a tectonic shift in the military aviation community, the only time a flyer willingly goes to see the flight surgeon is for the annual physical because being DNIF is the worst thing that can happen. When a flyer is willingly going to the Flight Surgeon, you know they either have cancer/something really bad or are going to get random **** like a knee strain documented before they separate.

I
 
TCABM said:
Interestingly, the VA tallies up the most prevalent disabilities and publishes it yearly. AS of FY19, the cumulative data is below.
View attachment 90588
There's a lot of really good data in the VA annual report here.

I still stand behind my statement in the other thread that the VA compensation & benefits program is a prime example of what happens when the law of unintended consequences copulates with Congressional good idea fairies.

I'll also say that unless there's been a tectonic shift in the military aviation community, the only time a flyer willingly goes to see the flight surgeon is for the annual physical because being DNIF is the worst thing that can happen. When a flyer is willingly going to the Flight Surgeon, you know they either have cancer/something really bad or are going to get random **** like a knee strain documented before they separate.

I
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Those are some interesting figures. What’s most telling is the percentage of Gulf War to present vets that claim disability and their number of disabilities vs previous generations.

Looks like around 35 % Gulf War to present vets disabled. Actually would have thought that number would be higher. I remember reading that OEF alone, 47 % of those that served we’re getting disability.

I went to the flight surgeon several times but it was for flu like symptoms, food poisoning or one time had shin splints. Really the only reason I went was because work would require a flight surgeon note for proof of illness. If it weren’t for that, I’d only see them for my annual. I was lucky in that I never had any real issues. I remember being super nervous for my initial long form physical but after 20 years of doing them, it became a formality. As I get older now, I’m starting to get worried again. :(
 
Velocity173 said:
Those are some interesting figures. What’s most telling is the percentage of Gulf War to present vets that claim disability and their number of disabilities vs previous generations....(
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It is. The entire document is revealing; remember that all claims require medical documentation to support them. Over the generations military members in general see the doc more often and the docs do a better job of recording and diagnosing. E-Health Records help tremendously with that.

Velocity173 said:
...I went to the flight surgeon several times but it was for flu like symptoms, food poisoning or one time had shin splints. Really the only reason I went was because work would require a flight surgeon note for proof of illness. If it weren’t for that, I’d only see them for my annual.
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I think that is about normal for a military aviator, go to the doc only if it’s required. Outliers should be considered suspicious...may not be a bad thing, but certainly could be.

Velocity173 said:
...As I get older now, I’m starting to get worried again. :(
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You and me both, brother. I’m contemplating Basic Med going forward because of that and we’re about the same age, I think.

I know today I could meet FAA Class I requirements, but that’s with a CACI for hypothyroidism (thanks, AF, for taking half that little bastard out). Melanomas reoccurs and I’m right back to SI again, with lower chances of success.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well believe it or not, there are those who don’t lie about having disabilities and don’t make up disabilities that they most likely don’t have. I’ve never lied on my 8500-8 and never lied on any employment application. I’d like to believe I’m in the majority but with what I’ve seen first hand, I sometimes wonder. Morality goes out the window when money is involved.

Not saying this is what you’re insinuating but to say that the four pilots indicted is acceptable based on the fact that all people lie, is absurd. If we find that acceptable then where do we draw the line? How about this guy?

http://www.avstop.com/news_feb_2010/southwest_pilot_pleads_guilty_to_fraud.htm
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There were two guys who were veterans advocates for the DAV whom seem to be a real piece of work. They was under indictment for a eleven different vets including Toth (the pilot above). Note there's no doubt about the guilt here. Not only did he bribe the doctor to write the false disability claim, he structured the payments to avoid having to report them.

Toth (the pilot) then tried to rescind his guilty plea. That didn't get much on appeal. He got 21 months and had to pay back the money.

Here's the indictment: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.kywd.67548/gov.uscourts.kywd.67548.13.0.pdf
 
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midlifeflyer said:
That's not accurate. All criminal cases are resolved in court, even if it's an outright dismissal, and most resolutions involve at least an admission that the facts warrant a finding of guilt.
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I wonder whether the US atty holding off on refiling amended charges on the outstanding items is part of negotiations with the VA OIG about repayment of the benefit .
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I have worked with several pilots that were a 100% rating, held first class medical and reported everything to FAA.
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Not if they’re 100% for PTSD like the guy that got busted. They only way I know to get 100% disability for PTSD is for being on meds which is disqualifying for the First class.

I’m sure there are ways to get 100% for something like a back or hearing along with a couple others disabilities to make it 100% and still keep the First Class with proper reporting. But that’s not what these guys that got busted did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Fracpilot said:
Not if they’re 100% for PTSD like the guy that got busted. They only way I know to get 100% disability for PTSD is for being on meds which is disqualifying for the First class.

I’m sure there are ways to get 100% for something like a back or hearing along with a couple others disabilities to make it 100% and still keep the First Class with proper reporting. But that’s not what these guys that got busted did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes. We are on the same page. I was just saying that a 100% rating does not necessarily mean a 1st class medical is unobtainable.
 
Jeremy Sayer said:
Hello everyone,

I'm new to the web forum here, and I have to say that these topics are really frightening to me for I am a disabled veteran as well, overall 90%, and I'm currently in the same boat as some of you guys already posted. I just received a letter from the FAA wanting me to type a personal letter of my history of PTSD, dates treatment , symptoms, everything about it basically and on top of that a current evaluation with any if not all previous evaluations as well. My fear is that I've already started training and was told that I do not need a medical certification until after my solo, as long as I have a CFI with me I can fly without a medical certification. Letter states I have 60days to complete this and mail all required documents back to them accordingly, but with all this COVID 19, I'm not sure if I will be able to get that done. I guess what I'm really worried about is doing all of this and then being denied, my end goal is to fly for the airlines one day. So, with all my rambling, anybody have any clue as to what my chances of getting approved for my first class med will be? I am open to any suggestions that will increase my chances, besides lying. Thanks!
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Jeremy, if that is your real name, delete this message and contact Dr Bruce or another consulting AME. Do that go this alone. Get professional advice.
 
Bumping this, I have a question about the title of this topic. Chrisman has not been sentenced yet so I don't know where the information @Juan Alicea used to claim he was sentenced came from. Chrisman is currently scheduled for sentencing in February.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Bumping this, I have a question about the title of this topic. Chrisman has not been sentenced yet so I don't know where the information @Juan Alicea used to claim he was sentenced came from. Chrisman is currently scheduled for sentencing in February.
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Did you read the thread. It was pointed out the event the initial post refers to is the filing of the sentencing memorandum by the US Attorney. As I previously pointed out such memorandums (and even plea bargains) are not binding on the judge, but I suspect that in this case the judge is not going to go heavier on this than what the prosecutor is asking for.

Chrisman's sentencing was originally scheduled for last week but is now set for 2/08/2021 at 2PM.
 
flyingron said:
Did you read the thread. It was pointed out the event the initial post refers to is the filing of the sentencing memorandum by the US Attorney. As I previously pointed out such memorandums (and even plea bargains) are not binding on the judge, but I suspect that in this case the judge is not going to go heavier on this than what the prosecutor is asking for.

Chrisman's sentencing was originally scheduled for last week but is now set for 2/08/2021 at 2PM.
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It's my fault for quoting the opening post on The Pilot's Place forum without re-reading the rest of the thread.
 
flyingron said:
Did you read the thread. It was pointed out the event the initial post refers to is the filing of the sentencing memorandum by the US Attorney. As I previously pointed out such memorandums (and even plea bargains) are not binding on the judge, but I suspect that in this case the judge is not going to go heavier on this than what the prosecutor is asking for.

Chrisman's sentencing was originally scheduled for last week but is now set for 2/08/2021 at 2PM.
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LOL. I don't always read ever post on a thread with over 100 :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
LOL. I don't always read ever post on a thread with over 100 :D
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But if I don't read the thread, I don't show up two weeks after the last post with an assumption on the thread based solely on the post subject line.
 
flyingron said:
But if I don't read the thread, I don't show up two weeks after the last post with an assumption on the thread based solely on the post subject line.
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In my defense, keeping track of what's said on an Internet forum thread isn't my highest priority, even in my dotage.
 
Velocity173 said:
Oh another story on how the VA pushes these claims on vets. Friend of mine a few days ago sent me FB message that his local VA rep was working to get him a higher disability rating. Said “are you sure you don’t have ringing in the ears from your artillery days?” Heard the same thing from a pilot I used to work with. He just completed his VA physical that day and the VA convinced him he had tinnitus. So every four years he passed his audiology test on his “long form” physical but yet now that he’s leaving the service, the VA has decided he has tinnitus? Give me a break.
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Tinnitus doesn't mean you can't hear. I hear just fine (for my age), but as I sit here typing this my tinnitus is driving me nuts. Some days it's really bad, others not so bad. Why do I have tinnitus? Who knows? I shot rifles and pistols (and a few shotguns) since childhood. Mostly with earplugs, but not always. Lots of power tools. Years of highway driving with the window down. 20+ years of working on mainframe computer rooms with very high noise levels from blowers, fans, 1100 line per minute printers, and whining operators. Is any of it service related? I have no idea. But when I got out in the early 80s, no one asked if you wanted disability payments unless you were actually, you know, disabled. If I'd gotten the same treatment then that one of my sons got when he left the Navy, I'd be getting disability payments for hearing and some lingering joint issues, courtesy of a fuel trailer landing on my legs back in early 1983. Nobody asked, and I'm not going to go begging now. I'm not sure about my two jarhead sons, but my ex-Navy son certainly got the hard sell on disability when he separated.
 
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