Fatal: walked into prop

John Spartan said:
Renting a plane and hiring one have different meanings. Like I said. It just may be a journalist issue.
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In English speaking countries other than the US and Canada, “hire” is commonly used where we would say “rent.” The yabaleft article above, for instance, uses both terms interchangeably. No journalist issue here, at least as concerns this one word.

On one hand, we had to dicker for 3 pages before establishing that the pilot and deceased were two different people. On the other, we suspect them of a 134.5 operation based on the single word “hire,” even though there’s nothing suspicious about it.

But as long as we’re making WAGs, I’ll guess it was a foreign student trying to impress an American chickie with his wealth and savoir faire, who promised to pay for the rental if his roommate’s brother would double date with them in a 172.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
In English speaking countries other than the US and Canada, “hire” is commonly used where we would say “rent.” The yabaleft article above, for instance, uses both terms interchangeably. No journalist issue here, at least as concerns this one word.

On one hand, we had to dicker for 3 pages before establishing that the pilot and deceased were two different people. On the other, we suspect them of a 134.5 operation based on the single word “hire,” even though there’s nothing suspicious about it.

But as long as we’re making WAGs, I’ll guess it was a foreign student trying to impress an American chickie with his wealth and savoir faire, who promised to pay for the rental if his roommate’s brother would double date with them in a 172.
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Welcome to the Internet.
 
DogoPilot said:
On the Archer that I fly regularly, the prop almost always stops vertically, so without physically moving it, it is in the way of the tow bar. I'm genuinely curious, for the people who advocate to never touch or get near the prop, how would you handle the situation I described?
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Rope would work.

So would shutting down by starving the engine with the mixture control, verifying the mags are off, and carefully turning the prop while staying as clear as comfortably possible.
 
DogoPilot said:
On the Archer that I fly regularly, the prop almost always stops vertically, so without physically moving it, it is in the way of the tow bar. I'm genuinely curious, for the people who advocate to never touch or get near the prop, how would you handle the situation I described?
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handling the prop the same way I would if I was going to swing the prop thru to start it...pull the prop in such a manner as to be moving out of the way if the prop rotates more than you planned.
 
Dana said:
All the years I've owned airplanes that have to be hand propped, it'd be tough to do that without touching the prop...
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Moving the prop to remove cowl plugs or wiggle the belt or clear FOD is a part of aviation. If you have to move the prop, do it with the the mindset that it might rotate on its own once you move it. Hundreds of pilots do this everyday without injury. It all in the mindset of one that understands how quickly a prop can become active.
Hot mags or a broken ground wire will greatly increase the odds of that prop becoming active. Not sure if it’s information included in today’s training syllabus, but pilots should be taught about mags, impulse couplings and propeller handling.
I remember a demonstration in A&P school where the ground wire was disconnected from a mag and then hand proper to life on a single effort. I’ve never forgot that.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
In English speaking countries other than the US and Canada, “hire” is commonly used where we would say “rent.” The yabaleft article above, for instance, uses both terms interchangeably. No journalist issue here, at least as concerns this one word.

On one hand, we had to dicker for 3 pages before establishing that the pilot and deceased were two different people. On the other, we suspect them of a 134.5 operation based on the single word “hire,” even though there’s nothing suspicious about it.

But as long as we’re making WAGs, I’ll guess it was a foreign student trying to impress an American chickie with his wealth and savoir faire, who promised to pay for the rental if his roommate’s brother would double date with them in a 172.
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A pilot and co-pilot had flown the couple, said Capt. Todd Hutchens of the Bulloch County Sheriff’s Office.​

again, this makes it sound like a charter. Strange in a 172 but that’s the language.
 
John Spartan said:
A pilot and co-pilot had flown the couple, said Capt. Todd Hutchens of the Bulloch County Sheriff’s Office.​

again, this makes it sound like a charter. Strange in a 172 but that’s the language.
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I think it's just as easily described as quotes in mass-market media from people who aren't aware of the rules and terminology of aviation. I'm not ready to pass judgement on anything or anyone at this point.

Nauga,
who doesn't believe everything he reads
 
Dana said:
All the years I've owned airplanes that have to be hand propped, it'd be tough to do that without touching the prop...
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Well, here is fifty eight seconds of horror - watch at your own risk!

 
nauga said:
I think it's just as easily described as quotes in mass-market media from people who aren't aware of the rules and terminology of aviation. I'm not ready to pass judgement on anything or anyone at this point.

Nauga,
who doesn't believe everything he reads
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Pretty much said that 2 pages ago. :)

Media fails at terminology a lot. The meaning of “stall” being a great example.
 
John Spartan said:
Media fails at terminology a lot. The meaning of “stall” being a great example.
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Laypeople fail at terminology a lot. The meaning of “stall” being a great example.
And "we" ridicule them for saying such things when we disagree, but accept their words when they support our opinions. Things like whether it was a rental or a 134.5 hire are knowable, but we have to wait for the people who have access to that knowledge to pass it on. In the meantime, we have threads like this.

Nauga,
whose first DPE left the airplane with the prop turning
 
John Spartan said:
Well, that looks like the scariest part of owning a Rotax.
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I had one training flight in an RV-12. The CFI did this while he had me listen for the "flush".
How much risk is there of it turning over when doing this? Is the risk different on a hot engine? I didn't think anything of it at the time, but after reading this thread...
 
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Salty said:
Rope would work.

So would shutting down by starving the engine with the mixture control, verifying the mags are off, and carefully turning the prop while staying as clear as comfortably possible.
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That is what I do (not the rope part). My question was specifically directed towards those who advocate to never touch the prop. My assumption is that there is no way around it in this scenario, but I'm always willing to learn of somebody has a practical way to turn the prop out of the way of the towbar without touching the prop.
 
DogoPilot said:
I'm always willing to learn of somebody has a practical way to turn the prop out of the way of the towbar without touching the prop.
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Telekinesis. But you have to be sure to stand behind the prop, in case it fires.
 
Baked Potato said:
I had one training flight in an RV-12. The CFI did this while he had me listen for the "flush".
How much risk is there of it turning over when doing this? Is the risk different on a hot engine? I didn't think anything of it at the time, but after reading this thread...
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A Rotax has some type of electronic ignition, no? So at least you don't have the issue of a broken mag ground wire making the ignition hot.
 
Having flown and worked around Turboprops for years, you MUST enter the prop Arc. We turn the blades to inspect the composite blades. This is crucial. We turn the blades to inspect the prop deicers. We turn the blades as we look into the inlet. We need to put prop ties on the propeller. All of these require entering the prop arc.

I will agree that it is instilled in me to approach with extreme caution, and I never ever carelessly walk through the arc. It is a no go zone, unless you are doing something intentional with the prop that needs to occur.

Another point, I recall back when I did flight training a number of times around the point of first solo (tons of videos online showing this too) where my instructor hopped out while the engine was running and proceeded to the back of the airplane. I also flew with a number of experienced pilots who would pull up and keep the engine running as you approached from the rear and got in the airplane. Helicopters also do this all the time, and there is absolutely a risk involved with this. At this point, I think I would shut down and not repeat these actions.
 
Another fifteen second horror video:

 
Daleandee said:
Well, here is fifty eight seconds of horror - watch at your own risk!

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A pusher. I was taught when hand propping, don't curl your fingers around the prop. Use palms flat on the blade. That's in case it kicks back. Can't do that here.
 
DogoPilot said:
On the Archer that I fly regularly, the prop almost always stops vertically, so without physically moving it, it is in the way of the tow bar. I'm genuinely curious, for the people who advocate to never touch or get near the prop, how would you handle the situation I described?
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Very few absolutes in life.

Be cautious around props. And only move or work within the arc when there is no other way, and don't spend extra time at risk.
 
TipTanks said:
Having flown and worked around Turboprops for years, you MUST enter the prop Arc. We turn the blades to inspect the composite blades. This is crucial. We turn the blades to inspect the prop deicers. We turn the blades as we look into the inlet. We need to put prop ties on the propeller. All of these require entering the prop arc.
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You are HIGHLY unlikely to turn a turbine fast enough to light it off. :D

And if a free turbine engine, you are not turning the core anyway.
 
I have a wooden prop and like to keep it horizontal when the plane is parked. Sometimes this requires movement of the prop ... :eek:

After a flight I usually take a moment to wipe down the plane to remove the bugs. This includes the prop.
 
John Spartan said:
Well, that looks like the scariest part of owning a Rotax.
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I don’t remember exact details but Rotax is significantly harder to hand start than legacy engines ( basically requires much higher RPM to get going ).

Here is the exact quote from Rotax forums:

It would be very hard for a human to do this; the ECU will not engage the ignition until it detects a steady 100 rpm for min 2 full revolutions of crankshaft.
 
For planes without a vacuum pump, turning it backwards helps the odds in your favor when cleaning bugs.
 
TipTanks said:
Another point, I recall back when I did flight training a number of times around the point of first solo (tons of videos online showing this too) where my instructor hopped out while the engine was running and proceeded to the back of the airplane. I also flew with a number of experienced pilots who would pull up and keep the engine running as you approached from the rear and got in the airplane. Helicopters also do this all the time, and there is absolutely a risk involved with this. At this point, I think I would shut down and not repeat these actions.
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I'm sure it was just a slip of the key board on your part, but just to clarify: Under normal operations, never approach a running helicopter from the rear. Approach from the front where the pilot can keep you in sight. Of course this bit of sling wing wisdom is often ignored during operations when crew/PAX approach from the sides.

Back to prop arcs. In the Air Force, I was a lowly airframe mechanic working mostly on KC-97s. One night I was out on the flight line taking a break from working on one of the old dogs while the engine guys did a low power run up of engines Nos. 3 and 4. I was standing on the ramp in front of the engines, while my friend, Ken, an engine mechanic, was observing the run up from beneath the right wing. The lighting units were pointing at the front of the airplane as the engines were being run, and the prop arcs were very visible, if somewhat mesmerizing. Due to the taper of the leading edge of the wing, engine No.4 was spaced 2-3 feet aft of No.3 leaving a gap of 2-3 ft between the propeller arcs of Nos.3 and 4. As I watched, Ken walked forward between the propeller arcs, which should have been impossible for my 6'3" friend. It happened so quickly that no one had a chance to react, but the engines were immediately shut down after the fact. Ken never did remember walking between the propeller arcs. It was thought that the lights shining from the front created a high frequency strobe effect with the whirling propeller blades, and this caused Ken to become mesmerized as he approached from the rear. By the way, the 18ft. diameter props were spun by the Pratt & Whitney R-4360, the largest displacement production piston engine ever built.
 
You folks who hand prop have way more courage than I do. Having worked the road for 17 years in an area where back up was literally hours away. I’ve responded to domestics, bar fights, nuts with guns, high speed chases…. Prop a plane? Nope, nada, ain’t gonna happen. I’ll sleep in it, in a Maine blizzard before I’ll hand prop. I’m kinda a wimp that way…
 
Nah...I disagree. I'm way too much of a chicken to do LE work, and distrust people too much, but I'll hand prop a small taildragger. I'm always cautious about it, but it was a requirement to learn to fly those aircraft. I don't think I'd hand prop a 172 or a Cherokee, though. I don't think I have the skill or knowledge to do it safely.
 
Hand propping a small engine is easy AND safe, if you know how to do it properly. For me, it was always an enjoyable part of the routine.

I have a starter in my plane now, but a dead battery won't keep me from going flying. :)
 
Albany Tom said:
Nah...I disagree. I'm way too much of a chicken to do LE work, and distrust people too much, but I'll hand prop a small taildragger. I'm always cautious about it, but it was a requirement to learn to fly those aircraft. I don't think I'd hand prop a 172 or a Cherokee, though. I don't think I have the skill or knowledge to do it safely.
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What different skills are needed to do the job by hand in a 172 or Cherokee vs a small taildragger?
 
Nosedraggers are harder because the propeller is lower, making it harder to pull it through.
 
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