Entering class C airspace

Clip4 said:
This is a rather common misunderstanding by some pilots.

Both the inner and outer rings are Class C. In Class C airspace, the ATC providing air traffic service is Approach, not the tower. Entering the inner or outer ring first is does not matter. The reason is in Class C airspace approach provides both basic radar service and the sequencing of aircraft into the primary airport. It is TRACONs job to arrange the aircraft into an orderly flow for the tower.

If you call the tower instead of approach 3 things can happen.

1. If the airport is not busy, the tower could accept your request even though you did not follow the regulation. They have to give you a squat code, which they normally don’t do or coordinate with the approach controller that you aren’t following procedure and they are handling you. You may also be admonished by the tower to call approach first.

2. The tower can simply advise you to remain clear the Class C.

3. The tower can advise you to contact approach.
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Clip4 said:
This is a rather common misunderstanding by some pilots.

Both the inner and outer rings are Class C. In Class C airspace, the ATC providing air traffic service is Approach, not the tower. Entering the inner or outer ring first is does not matter. The reason is in Class C airspace approach provides both basic radar service and the sequencing of aircraft into the primary airport. It is TRACONs job to arrange the aircraft into an orderly flow for the tower.

If you call the tower instead of approach 3 things can happen.

1. If the airport is not busy, the tower could accept your request even though you did not follow the regulation. They have to give you a squat code, which they normally don’t do or coordinate with the approach controller that you aren’t following procedure and they are handling you. You may also be admonished by the tower to call approach first.

2. The tower can simply advise you to remain clear the Class C.

3. The tower can advise you to contact approach.
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Not sure I’d say it’s a common misunderstanding. The freqs for approach are listed in the sectional. I’d say that’s the facility providing the ATC service. I think the majority of pilots would go up approach vs tower.

That being said, there is a gray area is some cases on who specifically to call. If departing from a Class C satellite (non towered) field, is the ATC facility providing the service tower or approach?
 
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Why are the approach freqs charted for charlies but not for TRSAs? Especially annoying since they don't show up in ForeFlight either.
 
GeorgeC said:
Why are the approach freqs charted for charlies but not for TRSAs? Especially annoying since they don't show up in ForeFlight either.
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Some, maybe all, I dunno, tell you 'SEE TWR FREQ TAB' on the Chart. But then the AF/D usually tells you to contact Approach if you want TRSA service. There is no requirement to call anyone to enter a TRSA. You can pretend that it's not there if you want to. You are required to establish comm for a charlie
 
Salty said:
I'm not really disagreeing with you, but the regulation does not specify what THE ATC facility is. I'm guessing that is because it's not always the same in every case. Therefore, it can't be against the regulation to contact the tower. If there's something that documents what THE ATC facility is, I'd love to see that. I'm guessing you're going to say it's the A/FD, but even then, often things are based on time of day and other varying things.
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Everything contained in the magenta rings is Class C. If the tower is the ATC facility providing air traffic service in the Class C, can I call the tower to transition the Class C in the outer ring?
 
GeorgeC said:
Why are the approach freqs charted for charlies but not for TRSAs? Especially annoying since they don't show up in ForeFlight either.
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Good question. What’s more annoying is they are not charted for the Bravos.
 
GeorgeC said:
Why are the approach freqs charted for charlies but not for TRSAs? Especially annoying since they don't show up in ForeFlight either.
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They do show up in ForeFlight. In the Frequencies Tab. It doesn't always have TRSA listed along with Approach, Clearance, Common Departure etc. But if you look at Approach it has TRSA frequencies. They usually are just the same as Approach
 
Clip4 said:
Good question. What’s more annoying is they are not charted for the Bravos.
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Not on the Sectional, but they are on the Terminal Area Charts which you are required to have to go in there, I think

EDIT: FAR does not require you have the TAC
 
luvflyin said:
Not on the Sectional, but they are on the Terminal Area Charts which you are required to have to go in there, I think
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No Part 91 regulation requiring any charts.
 
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Clip4 said:
Everything contained in the magenta rings is Class C. If the tower is the ATC facility providing air traffic service in the Class C, can I call the tower to transition the Class C in the outer ring?
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Local customs aside for transitions because there are indeed exceptions, in a class C it is Approach that providing air traffic services once airborne. As a general rule inside Charlie, tower controls the runway and airport, Approach controls the airspace...which is why Approach the first call you make in a Charlie by default absent any known local procedures.

Approach always the right call to make first, Tower may be the wrong call.
 
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luvflyin said:
They do show up in ForeFlight. In the Frequencies Tab. It doesn't always have TRSA listed along with Approach, Clearance, Common Departure etc. But if you look at Approach it has TRSA frequencies. They usually are just the same as Approach
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That sometimes works if you drill into an airport inside the TRSA, but not if you drill into the TRSA airspace sector itself. For example, KCXY doesn't even list the TRSA frequencies, but KMDT does.
 
Shawn said:
Local customs aside for transitions because there are indeed exceptions, in a class C it is Approach that providing air traffic services once airborne. As a general rule inside Charlie, tower controls the runway and airport, approach controls the airspace...which is why Approach the first call you make in a Charlie.
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Functionally there are two big differences between Class B, where a clearance is required, and Class C, where two way radio communications is required.

Legally You can fly up to one inch of a Class C boundary and immediately turn in to the Class C once ATC answers with the tail number. In Class B you have to wait for the Class B clearance, which is not going to be issued if you are a conflict.
 
Shawn said:
Local customs aside for transitions because there are indeed exceptions, in a class C it is Approach that providing air traffic services once airborne. As a general rule inside Charlie, tower controls the runway and airport, approach controls the airspace...which is why Approach the first call you make in a Charlie.
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I call tower every time when departing from a non towered satellite in the C. As our local C (CHA) just told me on the phone, that’s the correct procedure because tower controls everything in the surface area of the C.
 
Clip4 said:
Functionally there are two big differences between Class B, where a clearance is required, and Class C, where two way radio communications is required.

Legally You can fly up to one inch of a Class C boundary and immediately turn in to the Class C once ATC answers with the tail number. In Class B you have to wait for the Class B clearance, which is not going to be issued if you are a conflict.
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Yup. Many a Controller has gotten a boo boo by saying Nxxxxx, standby instead of Aircraft calling, standby.
 
Velocity173 said:
I call tower every time when departing from a non towered satellite in the C. As our local C (CHA) just told me on the phone, that’s the correct procedure because tower controls everything in the surface area of the C.
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And exactly what the reg says to do:

2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area;
 
GeorgeC said:
That sometimes works if you drill into an airport inside the TRSA, but not if you drill into the TRSA airspace sector itself. For example, KCXY doesn't even list the TRSA frequencies, but KMDT does.
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Yeah. They do the SEE TWR FREQ TAB thang on the Chart. Both say contact Approach 20 miles out in the AF/D. Foreflight doesn't do TRSA frequencies for CXY but does for MDT which are just duplicates of the Approach frequencies. I guess somewhere it all makes sense to somebody.
 
Clip4 said:
And exactly what the reg says to do:

2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area;
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Continue on to (ii) for non towered satellites
 
Clip4 said:
And exactly what the reg says to do:

2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area;
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That’s from the primary or satellite that has a tower. (ii) is from a satellite without a tower. By contacting tower in the second situation, that would be in conflict with those that say approach controls the airspace of the class C. That’s not always the case.
 
Velocity173 said:
That’s from the primary or satellite that has a tower. (ii) is from a satellite without a tower. By contacting tower in the second situation, that would be in conflict with those that say approach controls the airspace of the class C. That’s not always the case.
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You are correct, I highlighted wrong paragraph, but if you takeoff from an airport within the inner ring, you are taking off from within Class C, not entering Class C.
 
I think the main issue here is that each Charlie is a little different and it is impossible (from a practical standpoint) for a pilot to know how each is set up.

GRB, for example, has a tower cab and a separate TRACON, but they are the same facility, so you wouldn’t be wrong by calling the tower, but you would typically be instructed to remain outside of Charlie airspace and contact approach if you wanted to land because the TRACON is responsible for sequencing everybody whereas the tower is only responsible for the traffic pattern and the runways/taxiways.

OTOH, MDW is different. Chicago TRACON is the overlying approach control, but if you are VFR (and not on flight following), you would contact MDW tower directly. MDW is a tower with a mini approach control in the tower cab, but it has been combined with the local controller for many years, although it could be split off if it was busy enough. In that case, you’d call the radar controller in the tower, who would sequence you and switch you to the local controller. Chicago TRACON is responsible for sequencing IFR arrivals, and MDW works VFR traffic around the IFRs. MDW owns all of the Charlie, but delegates a portion of it to C90 depending on the runway configuration in use. In this case, Chicago TRACON is not authorized to let you into the Charlie, with the exception of the slice of airspace they are delegated....which you have no way of knowing about.

So, even though at MDW you are calling the tower directly, you really are calling the radar controller who is doing the sequencing...that position just happens to be in the tower cab and combined to the guy (or girl) working the runways as well.
 
Clip4 said:
You are correct, I highlighted wrong paragraph, but if you takeoff from an airport within the inner ring, you are taking off from within Class C, not entering Class C.
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Obviously but the comments that the runway / airport is the tower’s and the airspace is approach’s isn’t really correct.

Tower has no control over the movement on the hospital (airport) but I call them because within 5 miles of the C, is tower’s airspace. Approach actually has to get a transition approval (point out) from tower to go thru the core (5 miles / 2,500 ft) of their own C.
 
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Mike I said:
That's how it's done every single day in NYC. Transition right from Class E/G into Surface B by calling tower. If you want to enter the B at a higher altitude above a shelf, you're usually kicked to approach.
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Yup. See my post above.
 
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