Entering class C airspace

Salty

Salty

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Salty
Why do you have to talk to approach or C/D first when arriving / departing class C? Everyone I've ever talked to says this is how to do it, but why can't you directly contact the tower and establish 2-way with them and tell them what you want?

If there's a reg I'm missing let me know, but this seems to be just kind of an informal standard to me.
 
A lot more IFR traffic going in and out of Charlie space including fast moving jets such as regional airlines. Making contact allows the controllers to keep appropriate separations and informing participants of traffic.

As far as regs, FAR 91.130, and AIM 3-2-4 provide details about Charlie airspace.
 
AggieMike88 said:
A lot more IFR traffic going in and out of Charlie space including fast moving jets such as regional airlines. Making contact allows the controllers to keep appropriate separations and informing participants of traffic.

As far as regs, FAR 91.130, and AIM 3-2-4 provide details about Charlie airspace.
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Thanks, read and digesting.
 
Well departing, CD or ground will get your clearance (IFR) or FF (VFR) info to type into the computer. That gives Local and Approach a heads up so they can formulate a plan.

Inbound, you contact approach because they’re responsible for sequencing and separating VFR / IFR inbounds. Most C tower controllers can do it if they’re not busy but their primary consideration is taking care of their surface area.
 
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Salty said:
Why do you have to talk to approach or C/D first when arriving / departing class C? Everyone I've ever talked to says this is how to do it, but why can't you directly contact the tower and establish 2-way with them and tell them what you want?

If there's a reg I'm missing let me know, but this seems to be just kind of an informal standard to me.
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In a lot, if not most Class C towers, you ARE talking to the tower when you talk to clearance delivery. A lot of times C/D is combined with ground. As far as the arrival, if you could talk to the tower directly there wouldn't be a need for an approach control. At busier places such as Tucson for example, approach makes the sequences prior to handing off to tower.
 
So, who do you contact when departing a satellite airport inside a C? The AIM seems to be saying you should contact the tower, not C/D "the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace", but maybe I'm misinterpreting who has "jurisdiction".
 
Salty said:
So, who do you contact when departing a satellite airport inside a C? The AIM seems to be saying you should contact the tower, not C/D "the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace", but maybe I'm misinterpreting who has "jurisdiction".
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If tower controlled satellite airport, you do need to be talking to tower who then coordinates with approach. Once your off and flying, you eventually get switched to the approach controller for that sector.
 
Salty said:
So, who do you contact when departing a satellite airport inside a C? The AIM seems to be saying you should contact the tower, not C/D "the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace", but maybe I'm misinterpreting who has "jurisdiction".
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Personally if the airport isn't within the Class C tower's airspace but within Class C airspace, I would contact approach control. Where are we talking about here so I can pull it up on Skyvector?
 
@Salty can you provide a particular airport or scenario so we could do a better job explaining?
 
Velocity173 said:
Well departing, CD or ground will get your clearance (IFR) or FF (VFR) info to type into the computer. That gives Local and Approach a heads up so they can formulate a plan.

Inbound, you contact approach because they’re responsible for sequencing and separating VFR / IFR inbounds. Most C tower controllers can do it if they’re not busy but their primary consideration is taking care of their surface area.
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Adding on to this @Salty, if you were underneath the Outer Ring and going to enter the C directly into the side of the Core Area, the Tower may be more likely to handle you directly. But they may tell you to stay out and contact Approach. I wouldn't recommend this be your plan except at a C you are familiar with and know what their customs are there. This was pretty routine at the BUR C when I worked there, probably still is.
 
There was no specific airport in mind. Just refining my understanding in general.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Personally if the airport isn't within the Class C tower's airspace but within Class C airspace, I would contact approach control. Where are we talking about here so I can pull it up on Skyvector?
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So you mean if the satellite is under the shelf, but not inside the surface area? That would make sense to me, but honestly being the stubbornly independent douche I am, I probably wouldn't contact anybody if I were departing from under the shelf (unless I were on a long flight or planning on going through other airspaces during the trip)
 
The reason is really that the rules say to. I've flown into airspace of Charlies that are less busy than the Delta where I'm based. The rules say what I gotta do so I do it.
 
steingar said:
The reason is really that the rules say to. I've flown into airspace of Charlies that are less busy than the Delta where I'm based. The rules say what I gotta do so I do it.
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Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems like it's more a case that it's more efficient to call approach rather than the tower, not that the rules say you have to. I haven't seen anything yet that says you can't contact the tower directly. Feel free to show that's wrong.
 
luvflyin said:
Adding on to this @Salty, if you were underneath the Outer Ring and going to enter the C directly into the side of the Core Area, the Tower may be more likely to handle you directly. But they may tell you to stay out and contact Approach. I wouldn't recommend this be your plan except at a C you are familiar with and know what their customs are there. This was pretty routine at the BUR C when I worked there, probably still is.
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That’s what I did at BNA the other day. Below the outer shelf, called tower and he worked me with a midfield crossing at or below 4,600. Got a handoff to approach, then on course and altitude restriction deleted.
 
If you’re already on flight following or IFR it’s nothing.
 
As long as you talk to one of the two, you should be okay. If the facility you called isn't the right one, they'll let you know to call the other one. No big deal. But I'd at least talk to one of them.
 
Salty said:
I haven't seen anything yet that says you can't contact the tower directly.
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AIM says you should contact what's charted (published). It's in the white rectangle. Could be a tower, although I'm sure it never is, these days.
 
KOMA approach runs the show for both. Yes, a lone shooter in KLNK tower can get busy in a hurry. There are several "uncharted" student practice areas, when the weather is noce, its pretty busy. Lots of bizjet activity here as well.


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zaitcev said:
AIM says you should contact what's charted (published). It's in the white rectangle. Could be a tower, although I'm sure it never is, these days.
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Many ATIS broadcast a frequency to contact.
 
Salty said:
Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems like it's more a case that it's more efficient to call approach rather than the tower, not that the rules say you have to. I haven't seen anything yet that says you can't contact the tower directly. Feel free to show that's wrong.
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Go ahead, try and get into a Charlie or a Bravo by calling the tower. Let us know how that works out for you.
 
"Bugsmasher 45X, traffic your two o'clock, same altitude, crossing right to left; I'm not talking to him." Do you want to be that unknown pilot? If you were responsible for traffic separation in a volume of airspace, wouldn't you like to know the intentions of anyone in/entering that airspace? Speak up, don't be a stranger.

Bob Gardner
 
steingar said:
Go ahead, try and get into a Charlie or a Bravo by calling the tower. Let us know how that works out for you.
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If tower doesn’t have anything going on, they might very well keep him up their freq. if it’s a combined approach & tower facility where the controllers rotate between positions, or a Local Controller who has attended an FAA certified tower radar display (CTRD) class such as DBRITE, then they can provide the same basic radar services as approach. All they gotta do is point out the traffic to approach and work him in. Now, if they’re busy, most likely they’ll put him up approach because working traffic on radar 30 miles out is a secondary task vs visually controlling their surface area.

As with most things in aviation, it depends.
 
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steingar said:
Go ahead, try and get into a Charlie or a Bravo by calling the tower. Let us know how that works out for you.
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Well, I’ve done it at KSJC multiple times. Sometimes Norcal is too busy handling the Class B SFO traffic to talk to me, so I call up the tower at SJC instead. Never had an issue with it. Sometimes get a cleared to land while still 10-15 miles out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
One example of uncontrolled airport in C is Twin Oaks, T92, inside the inner ring of SAT class C.

Listening to SAT tower on LiveATC, I’ve heard T92 traffic two times I think. The departing traffic called from the ground and was effectively given a clearance to transition the SAT airspace. Paraphrasing, the clearance was to get out of the airspace as directly and quickly as possible. Whether they had called CD first to get a squawk code, I don’t know. And don’t remember if he was handed off to departure.
 
Van Johnston said:
One example of uncontrolled airport in C is Twin Oaks, T92, inside the inner ring of SAT class C.

Listening to SAT tower on LiveATC, I’ve heard T92 traffic two times I think. The departing traffic called from the ground and was effectively given a clearance to transition the SAT airspace. Paraphrasing, the clearance was to get out of the airspace as directly and quickly as possible. Whether they had called CD first to get a squawk code, I don’t know. And don’t remember if he was handed off to departure.
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T94
 
Used to fly bank checks ALB to EWR four nights a week. Usually would go VFR down the Hudson at 1100 feet. MANY, MANY times my first call to anyone (after checking out with Albany) was Newark tower at the Statue of Liberty. Always got a right turn in for 11 with Bravo clearance. (Believe it was a TCA clearance back then.)

I’m not sure if this is part of the question however...
 
Kritchlow said:
Used to fly bank checks ALB to EWR four nights a week. Usually would go VFR down the Hudson at 1100 feet. MANY, MANY times my first call to anyone (after checking out with Albany) was Newark tower at the Statue of Liberty. Always got a right turn in for 11 with Bravo clearance. (Believe it was a TCA clearance back then.)

I’m not sure if this is part of the question however...
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I think it makes the point that when you know the local customs it’s ok, even expected, to call the Tower first. B or C
 
Salty said:
Why do you have to talk to approach or C/D first when arriving / departing class C? Everyone I've ever talked to says this is how to do it, but why can't you directly contact the tower and establish 2-way with them and tell them what you want?

If there's a reg I'm missing let me know, but this seems to be just kind of an informal standard to me.
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91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and §91.129. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class C airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class C airspace area.

(b) Traffic patterns. No person may take off or land an aircraft at a satellite airport within a Class C airspace area except in compliance with FAA arrival and departure traffic patterns.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

(2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area; or

(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.

(d) Equipment requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by the ATC having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area, no person may operate an aircraft within a Class C airspace area designated for an airport unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215, and after January 1, 2020, §91.225.

(e) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate.



The regulation requires you to establish radio communications with the ATC facility providing ATC services. You want to contact a ATC facility providing service.
 
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Clip4 said:
91.130 Operations in Class C airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and §91.129. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class C airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class C airspace area.

(b) Traffic patterns. No person may take off or land an aircraft at a satellite airport within a Class C airspace area except in compliance with FAA arrival and departure traffic patterns.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

(2) Departing flight. Each person—

(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area; or

(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.

(d) Equipment requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by the ATC having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area, no person may operate an aircraft within a Class C airspace area designated for an airport unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215, and after January 1, 2020, §91.225.

(e) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate.

[Doc. No. 24458, 56 FR 65659, Dec. 17, 1991, as amended by Amdt. 91-232, 58 FR 40736, July 30, 1993; Amdt. 91-239, 59 FR 11693, Mar. 11, 1994; Amdt. 91-314, 75 FR 30193, May 28, 2010]
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It seems that you're missing the conversation. My statement was that there is no reg preventing you from calling the tower directly rather than going through approach or C/D first, and that it is only efficiency for all involved that makes it prudent. Steingar claims there is, but so far his only evidence is that I should "try it and see what happens", which is not a regulation.
 
Salty said:
It seems that you're missing the conversation. My statement was that there is no reg preventing you from calling the tower directly rather than going through approach or C/D first, and that it is only efficiency for all involved that makes it prudent. Steingar claims there is, but so far his only evidence is that I should "try it and see what happens", which is not a regulation.
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a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section.

Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

Do you have an ATC authorization to use a different procedure?
 
Clip4 said:
Really? a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section.

Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.

Do you have an ATC authorization to use a different procedure?
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Are you saying the tower is not "the ATC facility providing air traffic service" for the airspace? I think it is, and maybe that's where I'm wrong. Feel free to show how.
 
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Salty said:
Are you saying the tower is not "the ATC facility providing air traffic service" for the airspace? I think it is.
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This is a rather common misunderstanding by some pilots.

Both the inner and outer rings are Class C. In Class C airspace, the ATC providing air traffic service is Approach, not the tower. Entering the inner or outer ring first is does not matter. The reason is in Class C airspace approach provides both basic radar service and the sequencing of aircraft into the primary airport. It is TRACONs job to arrange the aircraft into an orderly flow for the tower.

If you call the tower instead of approach 3 things can happen.

1. If the airport is not busy, the tower could accept your request even though you did not follow the regulation. They have to give you a squat code, which they normally don’t do or coordinate with the approach controller that you aren’t following procedure and they are handling you. You may also be admonished by the tower to call approach first.

2. The tower can simply advise you to remain clear the Class C.

3. The tower can advise you to contact approach.
 
Clip4 said:
This is a rather common misunderstanding by some pilots.

Both the inner and outer rings are Class C. In Class C airspace, the ATC providing air traffic service is Approach, not the tower. Entering the inner or outer ring first is does not matter. The reason is in Class C airspace approach provides both basic radar service and the sequencing of aircraft into the primary airport. It is TRACONs job to arrange the aircraft into an orderly flow for the tower.

If you call the tower instead of approach 3 things can happen.

1. If the airport is not busy, the tower could accept your request even though you did not follow the regulation. They have to give you a squat code, which they normally don’t do or coordinate with the approach controller that you aren’t following procedure and they are handling you. You may also be admonished by the tower to call approach first.

2. The tower can simply advise you to remain clear the Class C.

3. The tower can advise you to contact approach.
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I'm not really disagreeing with you, but the regulation does not specify what THE ATC facility is. I'm guessing that is because it's not always the same in every case. Therefore, it can't be against the regulation to contact the tower. If there's something that documents what THE ATC facility is, I'd love to see that. I'm guessing you're going to say it's the A/FD, but even then, often things are based on time of day and other varying things.
 
steingar said:
Go ahead, try and get into a Charlie or a Bravo by calling the tower. Let us know how that works out for you.
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That's how it's done every single day in NYC. Transition right from Class E/G into Surface B by calling tower. If you want to enter the B at a higher altitude above a shelf, you're usually kicked to approach.
 
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