Engine TBO (years, not hours) question

Wow you guys are quite anal about putting money aside! Very admirable.

Me, I just throw all my extra in the bank & use it when I need it.

Just this morning my wife suggested that I cut up one of my credit cards I never use. My Response was "what if I need something for the airplane". Her response "If we have to use the credit card for the plane we don't have a big enough saving account".

Hey, at least she would never suggest not having an airplane.

She's right. Whether you cut them up or just leave them somewhere locked up with difficult access, no need to have them around at all.

I don't close the accounts though, but I will demand $0/annual unless there's a good reason to pay those schmucks.

If you're doing the "run everything through a card for perks" thing sometimes the card with the annual fee gives higher perks -- you have to do the math. Amex is often that way by double.

Insurers and others stupidly use the credit score to alter their prices so you want to leave the accounts open (age of credit affects score) but make them free. Run something through once in a while if you're not doing the perks thing and your "score" will sit above 800 forever.

Finger in the air for banks. Worked to make them profits enough in my youth. F^^^ banks.
 
Wow you guys are quite anal about putting money aside! Very admirable.

The term "anal" usually has a negative connotation and your statement is a backhanded compliment at best. Thank you in advance for not responding to those among us who actually make financial plans and follow them.
 
The term "anal" usually has a negative connotation and your statement is a backhanded compliment at best. Thank you in advance for not responding to those among us who actually make financial plans and follow them.

I'm sorry if my post sounded "negative". It wasn't meant that way. Anal to me denotes someone who is very much in control. I don't see that as bad but disciplined.

To large a segment of our population lives beyond their means. Hats off to those who budget & save.
 
You should be careful with that. Anal is always going to have negative, near profane connotations. Try "meticulous" if that's what you mean.
 
I'm sorry if my post sounded "negative". It wasn't meant that way. Anal to me denotes someone who is very much in control. I don't see that as bad but disciplined.

To large a segment of our population lives beyond their means. Hats off to those who budget & save.

I wont create and live by a budget per-se but I do prioritize discretionary spending after normal living expenses. Eating and keeping warm and dry take top priority. Other expenses are taken care of as warranted. Needs come first and wants/desires come second.
 
Can I pick my definition of "donkey raping **** eater" and tell you it's a compliment? Or should we rely on the dictionary? <- South Park reference for those who missed it.
 
Can I pick my definition of "donkey raping **** eater" and tell you it's a compliment? Or should we rely on the dictionary? <- South Park reference for those who missed it.

Old SNL skit:

Jane Curtin: . . . And so, with a name like Fluckers, it’s got to be good

Chevy Chase: Hey, hold on a second, I have a jam here called Nose Hair. Now with a name like Nose Hair, you can imagine how good it must be. MMM MMM!!

Dan Aykroyd: Hold it a minute folks, but are you familiar with a jam called Death Camp? That’s Death Camp! Just look for the barbed wire on the label. With a name like Death Camp it must be so good it’s incredible! Just amazingly good jam!

John Belushi: Wait a minute . . . Dog Vomit, Monkey Pus. We offer you a choice of two of the most repulsive brand names of jams you’ve ever heard of. With names like these, this stuff has got to be terrific. We’re talking fabulous jam here!

Chevy Chase: Save your breath fella! Here’s a new jam we’ve just put out. It’s called Painful Rectal Itch. You’d have to go a long way to find a worse name for a jam. And good? MMM WAH! With a name like Painful Rectal Itch you gotta bet that it’s great . . .

Dan Aykroyd: Mangled Baby Ducks. That’s right, Mangled Baby Ducks! Picture a jam so good that you’d dare to call it Mangled Baby Ducks! Great Jam! It’s beautiful jam!

John Belushi: Wait a minute, wait a minute, this is it - 10,000 Nuns and Orphans.

Jane Curtin: 10,000 Nuns and Orphans? What’s so bad about that?

John Belushi: They were all eaten by rats! Oh, it’s so good! MMM!

Garrett Morris: Hold it, hold it everyone, your attention please, I have here a jam called, Oh God, [mumbles] Ick! Yecch!

Dan Aykroyd: It’s so good it’s sick making!

Chevy Chase: Oh, that’s gotta be great jam!

Jane Curtin: So if it’s great jam you’re after, try this one, the brand so disgusting you can’t say it on television. Ask for it by name!
 
the main factor in engine health is like real-estate location!. where has it been since the last overhall Arizona or Florida ,hangar or outside, airconditioned or outside in nolo.if in the cold good engine heater . the wear on the engine is usually directly proportional to the above laundry list. however use caution as it is not impossible for a aircraft to spend time or maby all of it not were thay say it was or were it was registerted. I live in s fl and would never buy a aircraft from here it is the corrosion/ rust capital of the world .humidity is the devil. exception being a new aircraft crossion x ed regurlary , flown every day at a flight school for other than primary training hanagared and sold just at tbo or new /rebuilt engine at low time/age


Not that simple. Burning fossil fuels releases CO2 and water vapor. Even in Arizona in the summertime that engine will release water vapor. Aircooled aircraft engines have much larger cold clearances than modern auto engines, and that water vapor gets into the crankcase past the piston rings. It condenses there, drops into the oil, and in the presence of metals it catalyzes and forms acids such as nitric, sulfuric and hydrochloric. Those acids cause corrosion.

An engine that heats up sees its clearances close up and the blowby decreases. The oil gets hot and the accumulated water evaporates and leaves the crankcase via the breather. As another said, ground running will heat the cylinders up real hot long before the oil gets warm enough to rid itself of the moisture, and you'll just end up with more moisture and more acids.

Engines that have sat for many years since their last flight, even outside in the rain, will often be found to be in reasonably good condition inside. The amount of water vapor in a crankcase-sized block of environmental air is very small, and the amount of air entering and leaving the case due to expansion and contraction is also tiny. This was discussed some time ago on POA regarding the water found in fuel tanks. Condensation from atmospheric air exchange is far smaller than the water that gets past leaky fuel caps or enters with the fuel.

We repeatedly find corrosion in engines from hangared airplanes, and it turns out that those engines were regularly ground-run.
 
The term "anal" usually has a negative connotation and your statement is a backhanded compliment at best. Thank you in advance for not responding to those among us who actually make financial plans and follow them.

You should be careful with that. Anal is always going to have negative, near profane connotations. Try "meticulous" if that's what you mean.

It's short for "anal retentive" and has been around since Freud. Anyone getting offended by it by now, simply hasn't read anything ever. It's been slang for at least a couple of decades. But it is relatively new for grey-hairs to hear it in regular conversation.

Just an example of missing context. I agree meticulous is probably a better choice, but younger folks don't use that word much. I hear "anal" in conversations more than "meticulous", and nobody gets offended who's younger than 50.

The last time I heard it was from the guy from India at work who's in his 30s and a rabid NFL fan, discussing one coach's coaching style. He is a good example of picking it up from peers, showing it's pretty common, considering j don't think his U.K.-ex-Pat English teachers in India taught it. He probably picked it up during his time at the University of Chicago, now that I think about it. He's our CTO. LOL.
 
@denverpilot - Sorry Nate. I'm 51, and two years ago, 12 years ago, and 22 years ago it was also inappropriate in polite conversation.

Still is.
 
@denverpilot - Sorry Nate. I'm 51, and two years ago, 12 years ago, and 22 years ago it was also inappropriate in polite conversation.

Still is.

Like I said, over 50... y'all get offended at some silly stuff. :)

Do you raise your pinky from the coffee cup at those fine parties in the Hamptons, too? Heh. Heh.

Besides vocabulary and slang differences, there's also a western states thing about stuff like this. Talk to anyone who's lived in the West for any length of time, and you'll hear a lot worse than "anal", even at formal dinner parties. Haha. (Remember, a black western suit jacket, black cowboy hat, a bolo tie, and polished boots, is still considered formal here! Some of us live on dirt roads for chrissakes. Ever try to keep a tux clean climbing into a dirty pickup truck?? Eff that. Hahaha.)

So... I can't tell ya which causes it more here, but folks usually get over their made up rules about such things, after they've been here a while. People in western states (until you reach California) tend not to mince words or hold back opinions. Honesty is appreciated.

I KNOW this isn't how it's done East, or South. Been there enough to get that. Also have a bunch of friends in both places who'd laugh and shake their heads and say I've "shocked" them with something I said in public, but they also know I'm what westerners would describe as a "straight shooter" (literally and figuratively). I might rustle your sensibilities but I won't lie to you, and if I tell you I'll do it, it's getting done.

(Side note: It's a useful skill in my line of work, especially when folks won't tell the boss he's wrong or completely full of ****. Everybody needs someone to tell them that, sooner or later. I've had people mad at me for saying stuff like, "This is complete crap", who came back later and said, "You were right. We need to change it." They know I'll help fix it.)

My stepmom was a bit, shall we say, "prissy" when she moved out here. Amish country Pennsylvanian, grew up Moravian church, and as my grandfather put it, "Wouldn't say s**t if she had a mouthful of it." Hahahaha. God that man was funny and a great instant judge of character.

She got over it. Took a decade or so. She still has, and will always have, excellent vocabulary skills. Nowadays, she could insult you and you'd never even know it until you went and found a dictionary. She found her inner opinionated voice, in her own way.

Everyone eventually does when they move here. Dinner parties are fun. Dad was pretty good at rolling his eyes at folks who couldn't handle it and not saying a word. He was in sales. I'm an engineer and not in sales, for a reason... LOL. I might say "anal" and you just might have to deal with it. Haha. I'll probably remember to say "meticulous" though. Just depends on the day. :)
 
Old SNL skit:

Jane Curtin: . . . And so, with a name like Fluckers, it’s got to be good

Chevy Chase: Hey, hold on a second, I have a jam here called Nose Hair. Now with a name like Nose Hair, you can imagine how good it must be. MMM MMM!!

Dan Aykroyd: Hold it a minute folks, but are you familiar with a jam called Death Camp? That’s Death Camp! Just look for the barbed wire on the label. With a name like Death Camp it must be so good it’s incredible! Just amazingly good jam!

John Belushi: Wait a minute . . . Dog Vomit, Monkey Pus. We offer you a choice of two of the most repulsive brand names of jams you’ve ever heard of. With names like these, this stuff has got to be terrific. We’re talking fabulous jam here!

Chevy Chase: Save your breath fella! Here’s a new jam we’ve just put out. It’s called Painful Rectal Itch. You’d have to go a long way to find a worse name for a jam. And good? MMM WAH! With a name like Painful Rectal Itch you gotta bet that it’s great . . .

Dan Aykroyd: Mangled Baby Ducks. That’s right, Mangled Baby Ducks! Picture a jam so good that you’d dare to call it Mangled Baby Ducks! Great Jam! It’s beautiful jam!

John Belushi: Wait a minute, wait a minute, this is it - 10,000 Nuns and Orphans.

Jane Curtin: 10,000 Nuns and Orphans? What’s so bad about that?

John Belushi: They were all eaten by rats! Oh, it’s so good! MMM!

Garrett Morris: Hold it, hold it everyone, your attention please, I have here a jam called, Oh God, [mumbles] Ick! Yecch!

Dan Aykroyd: It’s so good it’s sick making!

Can't help but think they hit rock-bottom with that skit.

Chevy Chase: Oh, that’s gotta be great jam!

Jane Curtin: So if it’s great jam you’re after, try this one, the brand so disgusting you can’t say it on television. Ask for it by name!
 
Hey Nate, Don't leave us damned Michigan Yankees out of the picture. Some of us truly speak their minds regardless of consequences. My last employer and I had such a relationship. We called each other down on a lot of sh*t when we thought it was not good for the company. It was taken in good faith and never caused a problem between us. We discussed and came to a sane conclusion to the problem at hand. Those were good years where each of us could speak our minds openly with no fear of retribution. We disagreed on some things but had a meeting of the minds on most. I regard him as the best boss I ever had in my career as an A&P, an equal in the course of keeping in compliance with the regs, and he's still a best friend fifteen years after I hung up my shingle.

I did learn a lot from my dad. He was honest to a fault, and that was impressed on me when I closed a real estate deal for someone he worked with for forty years. When the man said to his wife "He's Lisle's son, we are in good hands" I knew I had a reputation to live up to. I've been following that ethic ever since.
 
Hey Nate, Don't leave us damned Michigan Yankees out of the picture. Some of us truly speak their minds regardless of consequences. My last employer and I had such a relationship. We called each other down on a lot of sh*t when we thought it was not good for the company. It was taken in good faith and never caused a problem between us. We discussed and came to a sane conclusion to the problem at hand. Those were good years where each of us could speak our minds openly with no fear of retribution. We disagreed on some things but had a meeting of the minds on most. I regard him as the best boss I ever had in my career as an A&P, an equal in the course of keeping in compliance with the regs, and he's still a best friend fifteen years after I hung up my shingle.

I did learn a lot from my dad. He was honest to a fault, and that was impressed on me when I closed a real estate deal for someone he worked with for forty years. When the man said to his wife "He's Lisle's son, we are in good hands" I knew I had a reputation to live up to. I've been following that ethic ever since.

Haha yup. Michigan. You're right! That's true!

Some of my crusty honesty was from dad, but I have to credit some other folks, too. Telecom engineers who'd been doing it a LONG time.

I've also had a few great bosses over the years, and I've shared the story here of the one who might have tripped over circumstances he wasn't given when he stopped a product release meeting right after the CEO said a particular piece of new hardware in the product was a "solution", and he blurted out, "That's not a solution, that's a f***ing kludge!"

He didn't know that the CEO needed the thing out the door and shipped to customers to tide over customers who would later be offered a nearly free upgrade to a new product that replaced this one, and had been developed for three years, off-site, in secret from everyone except the CEO, the head of engineering, and the team that built it.

So... his timing was a bit poor, but he didn't know. His job on the release Board was to stop garbage like that which would become a support nightmare and high support costs, from leaving the dock. He was mad nobody was going to stop it.

And he got the walk to HR to tell him to watch his language, and later that day, a private conversation with the CEO saying he was right, and we should not ship the kludge, and was "read in" to the secret cabal who knew about, and I'm not kidding here... "System X".

About three months later I knew about System X because folks were excited about it at the old employer. I had moved to a data center building company, but old friends who were upset about the old place's trgectory were once again energized when we'd have lunch or see each other.

I had been "read in" a bit on it right before I left, because I would have been involved with setting up the support training for the thing.

The old boss and I met up for lunch or something and I got to hear "the rest of the story of the day I was told to go to HR for saying that thing was a 'f***ing kludge". We both laughed really hard that day.

Sometimes you're right, but don't know the rest of the information you needed to know. Sometimes the thing is really a "f***ing kludge", but the CTO needs that kludge to ship so he can finish the new thing and then give the customers a screaming deal on throwing out the kludge. Haha.

Building stuff is fun. Building stuff when people are scheming and hiding stuff and making their little plans to take over the world, can be REALLY entertaining!

Oh, the CEO? His gamble worked. Product did really well, replaced all the kludges quickly, except the one sold to Japan, and nobody could ever figure out why they didn't take the deal... and he cashed out for multiple millions when the company got bought... right when I went back to work for them seven years later, after the dot-bomb blew up the data center company's finances.

Harvard guy. Last I heard he was mentoring young CEO hopefuls and sitting on a number of Boards. Very very bright. Knew how to sell at the peak, too.

Never had a chance to ask him why all the secrecy. By that stage, we only had one real competitor, and by the time I came back, we had acquired them, and I think that was planned all along... so who he needed not to find out he was building the killer product, I'm not really sure. Sure confused my boss! Haha.

I wonder if he thinks the weird effects of letting the main company think they were not engineering new things and the associated frustration as the original product aged and got very nasty hacks to keep it alive, were worth developing the new thing away from everyone at a "Skunk Works". I wonder if he'd choose that strategy again. Fascinating to find out.
 
It's short for "anal retentive" and has been around since Freud Anyone getting offended by it by now, simply hasn't read anything ever.
I know where it comes from. But if YOU had ever read anything you would understand why it is offensive to many.
It comes from classical psychology stages of infantile development, and by derivation obsessional neurosis. It is no less an insult when you know the etymology.

Just because in your circles it's got slang meaning doesn't mean that's universally the case. You can't dismiss the fact that others rightfully would get insulted by you applying the term to them.
 
I know where it comes from. But if YOU had ever read anything you would understand why it is offensive to many.
It comes from classical psychology stages of infantile development, and by derivation obsessional neurosis. It is no less an insult when you know the etymology.

Just because in your circles it's got slang meaning doesn't mean that's universally the case. You can't dismiss the fact that others rightfully would get insulted by you applying the term to them.

Was it so far off? "derivation obsessional neurosis". Opening separate bank accounts for different pots of money for what-if events of an airplane? Couldn't that be simply done on a spreadsheet? Do you open separate accounts for your electric? water? grocery? gas? cars? engine on your cars? where would one draw the line? I'm all for budgets and savings, just don't follow the logic for giving it its own account.
 
But if YOU had ever read anything you would understand why it is offensive to many.
This is an odd statement coming from someone so concerned about offensive statements.

Sometimes offense is taken when not given. In such cases, only the taker can resolve the issue.
 
I know where it comes from. But if YOU had ever read anything you would understand why it is offensive to many.
It comes from classical psychology stages of infantile development, and by derivation obsessional neurosis. It is no less an insult when you know the etymology.

Just because in your circles it's got slang meaning doesn't mean that's universally the case. You can't dismiss the fact that others rightfully would get insulted by you applying the term to them.

I also don't have to care in the slightest that you're unable to adjust to the context in which it was used. The phrase is used that way far beyond my "circles". Search any online forum or the Urban Dictionary if you like.

I knew everything you stated above, and also that the guy who came up with the phrase is pretty much considered a crackpot in a field that struggles to even be considered a serious science, but has certainly done better at that since his day. Not that he helps much.

Most of his theories have become jokes over time. Dude really liked his cocaine.

People also claim their friends are "OCD" these days. They don't lessen the clinical definition of it, because the people they're communicating with understand that in context, the subject of their ribbing isn't debilitated and unable to function in society, they just like their lunchable items lined up on their desk before they eat them every day.

And Freud himself when he was told his constant cigar habit was a sign of oral-fixation said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Context matters. Slang happens. People adapt.

Or maybe not, if they're anal about stuff, OCD about vocabulary, or maybe just just extra ... meticulous.

Maybe the folks that brought us electroshock therapy will figure out why some people choose to get offended and other people choose to understand context someday. They'll probably just market some more SSRIs to us on TV, for a while though.

Be as offended as you wish, it makes no difference to me. It's your decision to make as to how you waste your day arguing about something I honestly don't care about.

I'm going to go get orally-fixated on a cup of coffee. I'll put exactly two Splendas in it to ease my OCD, and I'll try not to be too anal about washing the mug out later. If that offends anybody I'll be over here not caring at all.

I wasn't even the guy who used the word, he didn't direct it at you as I recall, and if I've heard it used by all sorts of people in person and online exactly as he used it, I'm going to guess you're going to hear it again, used that way.

I predict you shall be thoroughly ruffled again by this one, good sir. Just a guess. Depends more on you than the speaker.

To borrow the cocaine addict's words, "Sometimes a word is just a word."
 
By the way, Ron. Since context is hard online in text, picture me smiling a Cheshire Cat grin that you got cranky and with twinkling eyes asking you, "Ron... tell me about your mother." ;-) ;-) ;-)

Picture a couch where you have rolke down while I'm saying it, too. Hehehehe.

I tell ya what. I know this.

I want an anal, OCD, meticulous bastard rebuilding my O-470 when the time comes, and proud to be called any one of them or all three when someone sees his quality of work!! :)
 
A quick OT comment about credit ratings. My Experian report has a comments section. On things affecting my score, it has an item that is kinda funny.

"Your credit history has too many accounts that have been recently opened. Average age of accounts: 14.5 years."

I wonder what is considered an old account. :D
 
Was it so far off? "derivation obsessional neurosis". Opening separate bank accounts for different pots of money for what-if events of an airplane? Couldn't that be simply done on a spreadsheet? Do you open separate accounts for your electric? water? grocery? gas? cars? engine on your cars? where would one draw the line? I'm all for budgets and savings, just don't follow the logic for giving it its own account.
Is your gas, electric, water, grocery or gas bill in excess of $80,000-$90,000? My overhaul bill will be. What's the overhaul bill on your plane? My other monthly bills range anywhere from 3700 to 30 a month and don't have separate accounts. Do you have a separate account for retirement? How about your kids college? If you didn't get a tax break would you just spreadsheet it all?

PS. It's not a "what-if" event. Can you let me know how to "what-if" getting the yearly annual done and fly the engines forever without overhauling them?

The logic works for me. And I'm happy that your spreadsheet logic works for you.
 
Is your gas, electric, water, grocery or gas bill in excess of $80,000-$90,000? My overhaul bill will be. What's the overhaul bill on your plane? My other monthly bills range anywhere from 3700 to 30 a month and don't have separate accounts. Do you have a separate account for retirement? How about your kids college? If you didn't get a tax break would you just spreadsheet it all?

PS. It's not a "what-if" event. Can you let me know how to "what-if" getting the yearly annual done and fly the engines forever without overhauling them?

The logic works for me. And I'm happy that your spreadsheet logic works for you.

I'd say the engine what-if is a huge what-if... I can guarantee with 100% certainty that I will never overhaul my engine. It currently has ~600hours on it.. the plane will be sold long before I ever get anywhere near 2000... I'd guess more planes are sold prior to TBO, and in turn most high time planes are bought with an anticipated OH.

I wasn't knocking the practice of accounting at all, Yes, I have multiple accounts for retirement, HSA, savings, college savings, etc. Not because I want to keep them separate, but because they all have different rules/tax benefits for keeping them separate. The intent of my comment was that one could argue the use of "anal" to describe an individual who takes an extremely meticulous methodology to their accounting practices is valid description. I'm in the school of thought where Anal is not a negative adjective. There are many aspects in my life where I absolutely want the services of someone who is Anal, and I would take no offense to someone calling me anal. I'm very anal about my pre-flights and aircraft mx, and I'm sure my passengers appreciate it.
 
I'd say the engine what-if is a huge what-if... I can guarantee with 100% certainty that I will never overhaul my engine. It currently has ~600hours on it.. the plane will be sold long before I ever get anywhere near 2000... I'd guess more planes are sold prior to TBO, and in turn most high time planes are bought with an anticipated OH.

So what happens if your engine starts making metal in the next 100 hours or so? Are you still never going to overhaul it?

For what it's worth, I've overhauled far more engines that did not make TBO than ones that have so far.
 
So what happens if your engine starts making metal in the next 100 hours or so? Are you still never going to overhaul it?

For what it's worth, I've overhauled far more engines that did not make TBO than ones that have so far.

Sell the plane - the loss i'd take selling it with a run-out is less than the cost of the OH.
 
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