dual pic and under the hood (simulated instrument)

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Christopher Lowe

Filing Flight Plan
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Jan 24, 2023
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Chris
Hello ALL

I am looking to build MORE time in possible a VFR day only airplane, in a no electric system Luscombe.

Assume I am flying with a similarly rated/endorsed pilot and while using FF on my ipad (+ a portable absd in unit of course), I use pilotage to maintain course, with the usual checkpoints. I have no AOA.

I use my compass to help maintain course and pilotage checkpoints. My FF Gps also helps here. I am VFR with a safety pilot. The aircraft does not have the needed IFR equip or even Night VFR equip.

Can we log dual PIC while I am under the hood?

Thanks

Chris
 
With a view limiting devise and sole reference to instruments, yes you could log simulated instrument. I think you would learn more in an IFR equipped aircraft that could allow you to fly approaches, SIDs, and STARs. At least get some radio practice by using flight following. Do you have a nav radio?
 
Christopher Lowe said:
Hello ALL

I am looking to build MORE time in possible a VFR day only airplane, in a no electric system Luscombe.

Assume I am flying with a similarly rated/endorsed pilot and while using FF on my ipad (+ a portable absd in unit of course), I use pilotage to maintain course, with the usual checkpoints. I have no AOA.

I use my compass to help maintain course and pilotage checkpoints. My FF Gps also helps here. I am VFR with a safety pilot. The aircraft does not have the needed IFR equip or even Night VFR equip.

Can we log dual PIC while I am under the hood?

Thanks

Chris
Click to expand...
Don't see why not. But then I'm a FAR 61 dummy. But there are FAR 61 gurus here. You should know soon.
 
You can log whatever you want, however without a panel mounted gyro instrument (TC, T&B, Attitude gyro), I doubt any real audit would find that time legit as ‘flying by reference to instruments’
Check with the DPE before counting on that time for any additional ratings…
 
texasclouds said:
With a view limiting devise and sole reference to instruments, yes you could log simulated instrument. I think you would learn more in an IFR equipped aircraft that could allow you to fly approaches, SIDs, and STARs. At least get some radio practice by using flight following. Do you have a nav radio?
Click to expand...
No nav radio
 
DGlaeser said:
You can log whatever you want, however without a panel mounted gyro instrument (TC, T&B, Attitude gyro), I doubt any real audit would find that time legit as ‘flying by reference to instruments’
Check with the DPE before counting on that time for any additional ratings…
Click to expand...
Makes sense and thank you
 
luvflyin said:
Don't see why not. But then I'm a FAR 61 dummy. But there are FAR 61 gurus here. You should know soon.
Click to expand...
I think the sticking point is "sole reference to instruments" foreflight gps isnt on the approved instrument list and as far as pilotage, I cant be looking outside to confirm a vfr checkpoint if I am under the hood pretending I am IMC. I think I have my answer here
 
Christopher Lowe said:
Makes sense and thank you
Click to expand...
I think the sticking point is "sole reference to instruments". foreflight gps isnt on the approved instrument list and as far as pilotage, I cant be looking outside to confirm a vfr checkpoint if I am under the hood pretending I am IMC. I think I have my answer here
 
Christopher Lowe said:
No nav radio
Click to expand...
I think the sticking point is "sole reference to instruments". foreflight gps isnt on the approved instrument list and as far as pilotage, I cant be looking outside to confirm a vfr checkpoint if I am under the hood pretending I am IMC. I think I have my answer here
 
You can fly vectors without a suitable nav source. As a CFII, I spend the first hours flying headings, changing altitude, adjusting airspeed, Pattern A/B, timed turns, experiencing magnetic errors, and learning how to use available instrumentation.
 
texasclouds said:
With a view limiting devise and sole reference to instruments, yes you could log simulated instrument. I think you would learn more in an IFR equipped aircraft that could allow you to fly approaches, SIDs, and STARs. At least get some radio practice by using flight following. Do you have a nav radio?
Click to expand...
no nav radio
 
The question was, "can I log PIC while I am under the hood". Yes.
 
Have the safety pilot give the person under the hood headings to fly. There are people that have hundreds of hours of safety time. Just make sure you know how to log it properly and you will be fine.
 
DGlaeser said:
You can log whatever you want, however without a panel mounted gyro instrument (TC, T&B, Attitude gyro), I doubt any real audit would find that time legit as ‘flying by reference to instruments’
Check with the DPE before counting on that time for any additional ratings…
Click to expand...
Might be an issue if it involves logging approaches, but I don't see a problem with basic flight solely by reference to instruments.
 
lets call it what it is, two low time pilots are trying to get that magical 1500 hrs as quick as possible, and are looking for a way to make flying together legit. you can log anything you want. will anybody care? maybe, the faa will if there is a problem. then the term emergency revocation will enter your vocabulary, and if those hours were used to further a certificate the possibility of a criminal charges may be real. will an airline care, no, unless you are both interviewing the same day with the same interviewer. let your morals be your guide.
 
Nick P said:
Have the safety pilot give the person under the hood headings to fly. There are people that have hundreds of hours of safety time. Just make sure you know how to log it properly and you will be fine.
Click to expand...
midlifeflyer said:
Might be an issue if it involves logging approaches, but I don't see a problem with basic flight solely by reference to instruments.
Click to expand...

Makes sense to me. Sounds like it follows the regs. Write in the logbook what you actually did.
 
Check with recent hires. I have heard of several stories about airlines closely looking at logbooks and what is logged and whether THEY count it or not.
 
Pinecone said:
Check with recent hires. I have heard of several stories about airlines closely looking at logbooks and what is logged and whether THEY count it or not.
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Yes, if you fill out an airline application, you give them numbers based on what they ask for. Beyond that, I've also heard the mythology about airlines not liking the FAA 's regulations about logging flight time for the FAA's certificates, rating, and currency too. Always wondered whether that went beyond logbooks ;)

I suspect the mythology is bases mostly on pilot being asked whey they logged something and getting "dunno" as a reply.
 
Some airlines will be pleased to see that… as they didn’t have to pay for it, like some are doing…

It’s becoming “a thing”. The safety pilot method.

While that much time under the hood is good, the rest of the time as a safety is useless.

The bigger issue is light civil pilots going directly to transport category JETS, skipping the traditional (slower) turboprop.

It WILL be a challenging transition, especially with how training dumbed down during lean years.
 
texasclouds said:
You can fly vectors without a suitable nav source. As a CFII, I spend the first hours flying headings, changing altitude, adjusting airspeed, Pattern A/B, timed turns, experiencing magnetic errors, and learning how to use available instrumentation.
Click to expand...
Yeah, there's aviatin, navigatin and communicatin. Nuthin says ya gotta do all three on every flight.
 
A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

So your argument is you fly an airplane without gyros in instrument conditions and you are simulating a flight in which you are likely going to die.
 
Clip4 said:
A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

So your argument is you fly an airplane without gyros in instrument conditions and you are simulating a flight in which you are likely going to die.
Click to expand...
Kinda like partial panel practice, eh?
 
I doubt anyone is going to ask what equipment you had in your airplane which you logged hours in. And to be honest I don’t remember each and every airplane I’ve flown in and what equipment it had.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Kinda like partial panel practice, eh?
Click to expand...

Yep, vacuum pump dies and you lose AI and DG. Then you have a failure that causes your TC to not work. Well son, Pitot Static and his good friend Mr Compass to the rescue. Real life you will incorporate your iPad or iPhone into the mix if they are working. I can see value in doing sim instrument in your plane. Maybe not 1000 hrs of it, but a hundred or so seems legit. And lets say you accidentally fly this plane into IMC. You will have real life skills to get yourself back to VMC under control.
 
It’s a VFR aircraft on a VFR flight.
Nothing in the regs on how the aircraft needs to be equipped for sim instrument flight. Totally legal. I most of the way through my IFR training but am planning on doing this with my 120 and CFII. Plane needs a CDI and DG to be IFR legal. Want to practice nav and approaches with ForeFlight as a backup. CFII totally cool with it.
 
Nothin like a few hundred hours of PARTIAL PANEL. That WILL hone some skills, I like it!!
 
manac said:
It’s a VFR aircraft on a VFR flight.
Nothing in the regs on how the aircraft needs to be equipped for sim instrument flight.
Click to expand...
Agreed. All simulated instrument flight is that the pilot is wearing a view-limiting device. No special equipment required other than that device, dual controls (or a throwover), and a window.
 
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