Do you use flight following? if so how and when do you choose to use it?

PaulS said:
So are you a controller? I'd like to get an answer I can trust, if you check out the two links I gave, they conflict with what you said.

The last time I asked was about 2 months ago, I was actually on a flight review with an instructor, I had gotten FF, was going to climb, and had told them before I took off, that I was planning on climbing to 3,500. When I started climbing the cloud deck a few miles from the airport was at about 2,500 so I stopped at 2,000. I called up the controller and asked if I was cleared through the Delta ahead, he said "I thought you were going to 3,500?" I told him about the deck which went about 3 miles into the delta. He told me he'd take care of it, then told me I was cleared in and to maintain 2,000 or above.
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Not anymore I’m not. But we’ve brought up this particular subject on POA a million times and all current and former controllers are in agreement. While talking to a radar facility and receiving FF, they are required to coordinate with any tower facilities for that aircraft.

As far as the FAA director of communications letter, personally I believe he / she is interpreting 91.129 incorrectly. They are also adding a practice that isn’t in the controller manual.

First, does 91.129 specifically state to contact tower for arrival / through flight? No, it states to contact the facility providing ATC services. The facility providing ATC services could be tower, but in this case, you’re receiving FF it’s radar and not tower. The only part of 91.129 that even states to specifically contact tower, is in departing flight. Obviously approach / center wouldn’t make sense to contact them on the ground, that’s why tower is mentioned. Another example is conducting a GCA. By being in contact with the RFC, you’re in contact with the facility providing ATC services. Contacting tower for a GCA wouldn’t make any sense.

The second part of the letter I disagree with, is letting the pilot know that they’ve coordinated with tower. Basically making up a policy and phraseology that doesn’t exist in the .65. There is no policy to let a pilot know that the controller has done their job. No final controller on a GCA is going to blurt out over the radio “I’ve coordinated your arrival with tower.” And if you’re a pilot doing a GCA, are you going to ask in the middle of an approach if they’ve done their job?

Now getting back to my first reply. You stated you must be talking with the tower or need to make sure you’re cleared. No, you don’t need to talk to tower and don’t need to make sure you’re cleared. But as I stated earlier, if you personally feel the need to do it, by all means do it. I can tell you if the coordination wasn’t done, QA will be going after ATC for an OD and not you for a 91.129 violation. It would be pretty stupid of ATC to blame you for them not adhering to their own regs.
 
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I use FF on anything 50+ nm from home airport.
 
I use on all cross country flights


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I request it on every flight over 1500 ft. It’s safer and unless the controllers are very busy I get the feeling they like knowing what you’re up to and where you’re going.
 
easik said:
Interesting how your choice also depends on the aircraft you're flying. Please elaborate because this was one of the points I mentioned in the video.
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One example is in the Super Cub. It is extremely rare that I would ever fly it at altitudes much higher than 1000 feet, even on a 1000 mile cross country trip. There are many places where radar coverage is spotty or nonexistent at those altitudes so there is little point in asking for advisories. ATC won't be able to help you.

Thankfully the coverage has gotten better down low with ADS-B now but it still isn't perfect. Flight following just isn't something I worry a lot about since most areas I fly a cub in because of the radar problems plus a lack of traffic. I worry far more about hitting an obstruction than I do hitting another airplane.
 
I always use flight following for a couple of reasons. First, I like having the extra set of eyes looking out for me. I can't tell you the number of times ATC has pointed out someone that I probably would not have seen. I've actually had two instances that required evasive action.

Second, I have several friends who are air traffic controllers and they tell me they really appreciate it when VFR pilots call them and participate in the NAS. One of their big problems is to have a guy who is just flying around without any communication with ATC. ATC is responsible for maintaining separation for all their IFR traffic, but they have no idea where the VFR guy is going if he is not communicating with him. That lack of communication, makes for some tense moments and unnecessary re-routes.
 
I use flight following more often than not. For cross country flight it’s practically 100% flight following for me. Also, heading into the practice area for some maneuvers - it’s hard to think of a more appropriate time than that for FF, this is when that second set of eyes becomes extremely valuable. It’s also very useful when flying practice approaches.

On the other hand, if I’m just heading out for nowhere in particular, low level, stress relief, scenic activity, then I’ll likely skip FF.
 
I use FF for most of my local flying (1 hr or less) other then that, I file. Every now and again I'll scoot north for family, and just monitor Dover approach, then as I get close to Wilmington (KILG) I'll listen to Philly approach before switching to Wilmington tower. It can get busy around the Dover AFB and the sky is usually busy with Del State school planes.
 
Paul V said:
I request it on every flight over 1500 ft. It’s safer and unless the controllers are very busy I get the feeling they like knowing what you’re up to and where you’re going.
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That would include staying in the pattern where I fly :)

As others have said, I use FF for anything XC over 50 miles. I can’t imagine not using it.
 
I only use it when traversing airspace is involved. For cross country flights more than a couple hundred miles I’ll just file IFR even in VMC, which is pretty close to the same thing, but you get a little more priority in my experience. I’m not shy about using it, but I prefer the autonomy when I’m not doing anything complicated.
 
@PaulS , @Velocity173 , I think the Chief Counsel did an opinion on this. As I recall the ‘overlapping responsibility’ card was played. @midlifeflyer , I remember you coming up with Chief Counsel decisions every now and then. Does this one ring a bell?
 
I’ve used it flying to Oshkosh..since it is so busy. Also used it when weather was approaching since I wanted to travel safely as far as possible. Now with Foreflight I can see how far the weather is from me. I also use it in unfamiliar landscapes that are sparsely populated.
 
luvflyin said:
@PaulS , @Velocity173 , I think the Chief Counsel did an opinion on this. As I recall the ‘overlapping responsibility’ card was played. @midlifeflyer , I remember you coming up with Chief Counsel decisions every now and then. Does this one ring a bell?
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I know there’s one out that describes being up center and penetrating a C but that’s a whole different issue. In that case, you wouldn’t be up the facility providing ATC service for the C. If I were about to penetrate a C, while still up center, you can bet I’ll be querying them.
 
Velocity173 said:
No, you don’t need to be talking to tower. And, unless you want to annoy approach control, you don’t need to ask them if you’ve been cleared through.

View attachment 95154
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91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class D airspace area.

(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.


The ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D is the tower. Flight following alone does not give you permission to transition.
https://bruceair.wordpress.com/2017/10/19/transiting-airspace-with-flight-following/
 
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Velocity173 said:
I know there’s one out that describes being up center and penetrating a C but that’s a whole different issue. In that case, you wouldn’t be up the facility providing ATC service for the C. If I were about to penetrate a C, while still up center, you can bet I’ll be querying them.
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From 91.129 and 91.130. Both say the exact same thing. Centers are ATC facilities providing air traffic services.
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
 
I learned to fly in Part 93 airspace, it feels almost foreign not to have flight following. With that said, once I get out of any busy areas I might drop it and pick it up again later.
 
I have never used FF when VFR, although I have been known to call Center when I’m approaching an airport in crappy wx to ensure that no one is flying an approach that I’ll cause conflict with.
 
I still use FF for most XC trips, but less so than I used to. For one thing, ADSB seems to offer more reliable traffic spotting than the overworked controllers in my part of the country (Northeast).

Recently I took a long trip down the Eastern seaboard with just 121.5 on the radio and was amazed at how peaceful it was not to have the constant chatter of ATC in my ear. The only drawback is that I had to explain to my passenger why there was an occasional cat meowing on the radio...
 
Clip4 said:
91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any other airport within the Class D airspace area.

(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight, as appropriate.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.


The ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D is the tower. Flight following alone does not give you permission to transition.
https://bruceair.wordpress.com/2017/10/19/transiting-airspace-with-flight-following/
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Yeah, that’s the same thing that Paul posted. The fact that it doesn’t mention tower in either 91.129 or 91.130 blows that person’s argument out of the water. It doesn’t even state the facility responsible for the surface area in those regs. Only states the facility providing ATC service. That could be a radar facility. My GCA example clearly illustrates that.

So are we supposed to query approach about getting approval from tower but yet not query the RFC on getting approval from tower? Based on what you’ve posted, both cases would be a 91.129 violation if coordination wasn’t done.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah, that’s the same thing that Paul posted. The fact that it doesn’t mention tower in either 91.129 or 91.130 blows that person’s argument out of the water. It doesn’t even state the facility responsible for the surface area in those regs. Only states the facility providing ATC service. That could be a radar facility. My GCA example clearly illustrates that.

So are we supposed to query approach about getting approval from tower but yet not query the RFC on getting approval from tower? Based on what you’ve posted, both cases would be a 91.129 violation if coordination wasn’t done.
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Up at the beginning, (a), it says:

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area......

Otherwise authorized seems to be the argument. The FAA has certainly implied in some of it’s documents that there are some ‘otherwise authorized’s.’
 
I stopped when the ADSB in came about. For the most part in the places I mostly fly I see what they see. I really don't see the value, just another frequency to listen for.
 
steingar said:
I stopped when the ADSB in came about. For the most part in the places I mostly fly I see what they see. I really don't see the value, just another frequency to listen for.
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Depends on the route, some (like gulf coast) are littered with military airspace, so FF will keep you informed which areas are active.
Yes, you can just cold call each controlling controller but I like the hand holding, less stress.
 
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luvflyin said:
Up at the beginning, (a), it says:

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area......

Otherwise authorized seems to be the argument. The FAA has certainly implied in some of it’s documents that there are some ‘otherwise authorized’s.’
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Correct but I’m referring to (C) (1). As a final controller I had no jurisdiction over the class D. I definitely wasn’t tower either. But, I was the “facility providing the ATC service” prior to the aircraft penetrating the D. If I didn’t coordinate with tower, it still wouldn’t have been a 91.129 violation because the aircraft met the comm requirements in (C) (1).
 
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When crossing the L.A. Basin, always. Anywhere else, rarely.
 
Velocity173 said:
Correct but I’m referring to (C) (1). As a final controller I had no jurisdiction over the class D. I definitely was tower either. But, I was the “facility providing the ATC service” prior to the aircraft penetrating the D. If I didn’t coordinate with tower, it still wouldn’t have been a 91.129 violation because the aircraft met the comm requirements in (C) (1).
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Yup
 
I normally file IFR for trips outside the local area, and will be in contact with ATC throughout. Even on VFR trips, I will normally take advantage of ATC communication. I will also be in contact with ATC on any local trip that transitions through or above class B or C airspace (which would be required anyway if going through). For local sightseeing flights, probably not. There is not a lot of inconvenience is staying with ATC even when VFR. Being IFR greases the skids for entering and getting ATC service in class B airspace, however.
 
luvflyin said:
@PaulS , @Velocity173 , I think the Chief Counsel did an opinion on this. As I recall the ‘overlapping responsibility’ card was played. @midlifeflyer , I remember you coming up with Chief Counsel decisions every now and then. Does this one ring a bell?
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Not specifically, although, as I used to say in my tagline, it is a fallacy to think only one person can be responsible for a violation.

There are very few Chief Counsel opinions on the communication/clearance requirement. I can point to two:
  1. The 2006 Granby letter talks about not contacting Class C when receiving flight following from Center without taking the initiative to contact TRACON (pilot's responsibility to ensure satisfaction of the communication requirement).
  2. The 2011 Bacon letter, talking about Class C coordination among multiple satellite towered airports (the pilot is not in violation in accepting the tower instructions on departure and penetrating Class C).
Strictly personal practice. I accept the 7110.65 coordination responsibility when I am transiting through Class D as satisfactory to me. I don't impose that decision on anyone else. The problem is, in the TRACON/Class D relationship, we don't really know who is responsible for the airspace. There are LOAs all over the place. I set a student up for a lesson on that several years ago. We were retuning south (the green arrow on the graphic). That's outside the lateral boundaries of the Class B and we were below the ceiling of BJC's Class D. We were not using flight following, so my student called BJC Tower for transit authorization. "Contact Denver Approach on 118.6" came the reply.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not specifically, although, as I used to say in my tagline, it is a fallacy to think only one person can be responsible for a violation.

There are very few Chief Counsel opinions on the communication/clearance requirement. I can point to two:
  1. The 2006 Granby letter talks about not contacting Class C when receiving flight following from Center without taking the initiative to contact TRACON (pilot's responsibility to ensure satisfaction of the communication requirement).
  2. The 2011 Bacon letter, talking about Class C coordination among multiple satellite towered airports (the pilot is not in violation in accepting the tower instructions on departure and penetrating Class C).
Strictly personal practice. I accept the 7110.65 coordination responsibility when I am transiting through Class D as satisfactory to me. I don't impose that decision on anyone else. The problem is, in the TRACON/Class D relationship, we don't really know who is responsible for the airspace. There are LOAs all over the place. I set a student up for a lesson on that several years ago. We were retuning south (the green arrow on the graphic). That's outside the lateral boundaries of the Class B and we were below the ceiling of BJC's Class D. We were not using flight following, so my student called BJC Tower for transit authorization. "Contact Denver Approach on 118.6" came the reply.
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Granby, that was the one. Thanks for taking the the time to find and post it
 
Not getting it. What is unclear? AIM chapter 3-2-5 Class D Airspace:

3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. Two−way radio communication must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in the Class D airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the control tower on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude, destination, and any request(s). Radio contact should be initiated far enough from the Class D airspace boundary to preclude entering the Class D airspace before two−way radio communications are established.

Note:
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, “[aircraft callsign] standby,” radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class D airspace.
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Section on Class C says the same thing. Nothing about needing a clearance. The note makes clear that acknowledgement of 2 way communications is sufficient to enter, unless the controller directs you not to.

AIM does not say the same thing for Class B. Instead, it says:

"2. VFR Flights.(a) Arriving aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance prior to entering Class B airspace and must contact ATC on the appropriate frequency, and in relation to geographical fixes shown on local charts."
 
Ed Haywood said:
Not getting it. What is unclear? AIM chapter 3-2-5 Class D Airspace:



Section on Class C says the same thing. Nothing about needing a clearance. The note makes clear that acknowledgement of 2 way communications is sufficient to enter, unless the controller directs you not to.

AIM does not say the same thing for Class B. Instead, it says:

"2. VFR Flights.(a) Arriving aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance prior to entering Class B airspace and must contact ATC on the appropriate frequency, and in relation to geographical fixes shown on local charts."
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Ed, I called it a clearance, for lack of a better term. You are correct, you just have to establish two way communication for a delta with the tower. My concern is entering the delta while in communication with approach or center on FF. As you can see from the posts here, it is not real clear whether being in contact with approach will satisfy the requirement. It's happened to me a few times, where I've needed to transit a delta while on FF, I always ask. A couple times I've gotten "let me check" back.
 
Im in So Cal and I use it almost every single time that I fly, no matter where I am going.
 
It really depends on the congestion of the airspace. Most of my flights are in no mans land. I've flown through entire sectors without hearing a word on the radio. Check in, get alt setting, fly 30 minutes, get handed off. Not much reason for flight following when I've got 121.5 at the ready. Now, last weekend I got instrument current near and under Detroit's Brave, but never in it. Even with ADS-B I was squawking and talking. But for a flight to the UP? I just have GLA cut me loose north of Muskegon.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Not getting it. What is unclear? AIM chapter 3-2-5 Class D Airspace:



Section on Class C says the same thing. Nothing about needing a clearance. The note makes clear that acknowledgement of 2 way communications is sufficient to enter, unless the controller directs you not to.

AIM does not say the same thing for Class B. Instead, it says:

"2. VFR Flights.(a) Arriving aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance prior to entering Class B airspace and must contact ATC on the appropriate frequency, and in relation to geographical fixes shown on local charts."
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What’s unclear is that the reference you posted doesn’t say to contact tower.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah, that’s the same thing that Paul posted. The fact that it doesn’t mention tower in either 91.129 or 91.130 blows that person’s argument out of the water. It doesn’t even state the facility responsible for the surface area in those regs. Only states the facility providing ATC service. That could be a radar facility. My GCA example clearly illustrates that.

So are we supposed to query approach about getting approval from tower but yet not query the RFC on getting approval from tower? Based on what you’ve posted, both cases would be a 91.129 violation if coordination wasn’t done.
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Let’s put scenario into play. The pilot is flying north from A to B at 2200 ft MSL. and has requested traffic advisories. The controller issues a squawk code and later advises radar contact with the current altimeter and standard remain VFR verbiage. No altitude or heading has been issued - pure traffic advisory situation. 5 miles east of the route is a Class D area. The 2200 ft is below the charted top of the D airspace. May the pilot head east into the Class D to remain VFR?

In this scenario, why would the controller coordinate the Class D transition?
 
EdFred said:
It really depends on the congestion of the airspace. Most of my flights are in no mans land. I've flown through entire sectors without hearing a word on the radio. Check in, get alt setting, fly 30 minutes, get handed off. Not much reason for flight following when I've got 121.5 at the ready. Now, last weekend I got instrument current near and under Detroit's Brave, but never in it. Even with ADS-B I was squawking and talking. But for a flight to the UP? I just have GLA cut me loose north of Muskegon.
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Sounds like a nice place to fly, around here about every other flight, maybe more, I have to turn to avoid traffic. But if I were in your situation, I probably wouldn't bother either.
 
luvflyin said:
That's in the Controllers unofficial 'bag of tricks' to con pilots into cancelling. Often followed by Radar Service terminated, Squawk VFR, frequency change approved:devil:
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If you sense that happening, zig zag through the approach corridors, that'll teach them.
 
Clip4 said:
Let’s put scenario into play. The pilot is flying north from A to B at 2200 ft MSL. and has requested traffic advisories. The controller issues a squawk code and later advises radar contact with the current altimeter and standard remain VFR verbiage. No altitude or heading has been issued - pure traffic advisory situation. 5 miles east of the route is a Class D area. The 2200 ft is below the charted top of the D airspace. May the pilot head east into the Class D to remain VFR?

In this scenario, why would the controller coordinate the Class D transition?
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Sure, if the pilot’s route of flight is encroaching on a class D then the radar facility is required to coordinate. Pilot never told ATC their on course so the radar facility better expect anything. That’s really the whole point of “flight following.” ATC should be following the flight but also making sure the way is clear. No different than if the pilot deviated for weather.

So in your scenario, if I were on approach I’d say “N12345, what’s your on course to abc?” Or if I didn’t care and they turned as you said “N12345, do you plan on transitioning the class D at your present altitude?” Or if too busy and can’t get the transition, “N12345, radar services terminated, squawk VFR and contact xyz tower.” Or “N12345, remain clear of the xyz class D.” Multiple ways of handling the scenario and resolving it is based on good communication between pilot and controller. If the pilot hasn’t clearly communicated their intentions, the controller needs to take charge and get it out of them.

Also, not really related to your scenario but there’s no “pure traffic advisory situation.” While the definition of flight following makes reference to traffic advisories, it’s much more than that. The actual services that are provided are called basic radar services. So at a bare minimum that’s traffic advisories, vectoring (pilot request), safety alerts and sequencing at certain locations. Obviously one of the additional services for basic radar services is the coordinating with the appropriate control tower for transition.
 
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