In the northeast, I’ve always been coordinated through Class D airspace through FF. Only once did a controller query me and ask if I was going to remain clear of the class D airspace. I made a thread on that flight a few years ago.
Do you use flight following? if so how and when do you choose to use it?
- Thread starter easik
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you didn’t ask ATC, ATC didn’t tell you or you didn’t call the tower, how do you know they cleared you through?
Start asking and see how much stuttering you get.
A lot of the US is like that. This past weekend I flew from the Iowa/Minnesota border to Florida and back. The frequencies were all almost silent and there was almost zero traffic on ADS-B until I got to Florida.
I believe the environment in which someone frequently flys or learned to fly in has a large influence on whether that person sees the need to get advisories or not. I think much of the country can be traversed safely without ever using a radio.
Because they’re supposed to and it’s not my responsibility to ask
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
Indeed. I did canadian to mexican border in '13 radio silent. 1157nm. The only person I talked to was DLF approach to cut through the C shelf to park it home after a long day. And in theory I didn't even need to, if I had flown under it. But being an IP there at the time, it seemed in poor form to be that guy and cut through right through my co-workers flight path while I'm joyriding with my new-to-me airplane.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/atpb_october_2017.pdf
“The pilot’s responsibility to meet their radio communication requirement to enter Class D airspace is NOT eliminated when receiving VFR Radar Advisories.”
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Bro do you even lift
273nm night flight and di'nt use flight following once. NOT ONCE I tell you!
Interesting thing is that publication is to controllers not pilots.
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Velocity173
Got that beat. I did Kuwait all the way to Tikrit, Iraq with no FF and a broken GPS! Over 500 miles.
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Velocity173
What’s interesting about the air traffic director bulletin is that no where in there does he say the comms requirement is to contact tower. He makes reference to “jurisdiction” which I suppose he’s assuming tower. Problem is he’s in the General section. That area doesn’t even address comms. The Communications section addresses that and no where is tower mentioned on Arrival / Through flight. Again, there’s a reason why tower isn’t mentioned there but yet it’s mentioned in Departing flight. Poor reading comprehension on the part of the director. Based on his statement, the vast majority of GCAs I did, the pilot was in violation of 91.129. That is unless the air traffic director is trying to differentiate between VFR traffic advisories and GCAs. In that case, that argument doesn’t hold water either.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
That is likely because the radar facility didn't either coordinate or have an LOA.
1) God doesn't exist.
2) I'm making a very salient glass house analogy.
3) That you fly IFR on some trips doesn't change that you are less safe when flying VFR, and for poorly taken reasons.
Now now, he's just saying that completely distracting yourself from the job of flying to talk to your audience is much safer than listening to music while maintaining course, altitude and general situational awareness. Who could argue with that?
ATC not knowing your intentions is less safe for everyone. But MuH MuSiK
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
1. claims (even negative ones) require proof. I'll wait.
2. No, you aren't because you don't have all the facts.
3. You ignored that there's little to no traffic, and no radar coverage at most of my destinations. So why am I going to have them dialed up when they can't give me advisories, and can't see me anyway?
So what ATC am I going to notify?
I don't know if you practice being obtuse, but you've perfected it.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
Except that you said you don't get FF because it interrupts your music, not because ATC doesn't offer services. If you're forced to squawk 1200 because ATC isn't going to give you services, that is a totally different thing than saying you don't get it because you're a selfish clown who prioritizes not having the mute function on their Bluetooth activated over getting ATC services.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Maybe you should come fly in ****-you-country with us deplorables and see how much traffic there ISN'T before you make idiotic claims.
Am I going to fly near a Bravo without FF. Nope. But you conveniently ignored that part. This is why the rest of the country hates Californians. Can only see your own little world.
N1120A
Pattern Altitude
Lol, still can't get over it, can you?
I don't care how "little" traffic there is. It takes one clown deciding their music is more important to create an unsafe situation for the other guy.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
What unsafe situation? Please explain how it is unsafe when there's 1 plane every 250 sq miles. I have ADS-B out and in. I'm going to see what almost all of what ATC sees. They might have a radar return form a non-transponder equipped aircraft, but around here someone without a transponder isn't talking to ATC anyway, and they won't have an altitude for them. What unsafe situation have I created for someone else?
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Velocity173
I flew from NW Georgia to Shreveport, LA last October. No transponder and no FF the whole way. That’s just crazy man. Lucky to be alive.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
This is what happens when you are talking to approach control and your flight path takes you into Class C airspace. Given you've already told the controller your destination of course, the approach controller will get an approved "point out" from the ATC facility which in this case would be the tower. It can be automated (the approach controller pushes some button on their keyboard and your data block flashes (yellow in my case, no idea of what other colors they might use elsewhere) which is shown on the tower's radar screen. The tower controller will accept the flash on their end OR they will actually unable the flash via a keystroke on their keyboard, OR they will actually talk to the approach controller via the shout line and find out exactly what you are doing before accepting the point out. In either case, YOU are not required to talk to the tower controller for entry into their Class C airspace, that is already been taken care of by the approach controller. Pretty much the same for Class D airspace as well provided they have a radar feed in their tower, otherwise it will be accomplished via the shout line to approach control.
This is accomplished every day, several times a day and neither facility is ever "surprised" that you are going to fly through their airspace. Its all there on the scope, callsign, type aircraft, speed, altitude, destination. This is NOT a big deal.
This is accomplished every day, several times a day and neither facility is ever "surprised" that you are going to fly through their airspace. Its all there on the scope, callsign, type aircraft, speed, altitude, destination. This is NOT a big deal.
SoCal RV Flyer
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SoCal RV Flyer
Easy there, EdFred. Lots of nice folks out here in California, including me!
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
[
Why would approach control contact the tower in Class C? The ATC with jurisdiction is approach not the tower.
Why would approach control contact the tower in Class C? The ATC with jurisdiction is approach not the tower.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Airspace is delegated in a Letter of Agreement. Running with the it’s Approaches sky thing could lead to>>>>>>
Tower: N12345, cleared for takeoff
N12345: verify I’m cleared into the Class C
Timbeck2
Final Approach
What are you basing this assumption on? In my scenario I said approach is taking you through tower’s airspace. I guess I should have added that the tower in question owns that five mile ring of class c airspace
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Own isn’t really the right word. Delegated to the Tower on a pretty much permanent basis, yeah. Ain’t always a 5 mile ring, like your place. There are others like that. It’s KTUS/KDMA for others wondering.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Thanks for nit picking my oversimplified version of explaining why pilots don’t have to contact a tower while in flight following
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Velocity173
Towers within a C have delegated airspace that require their own TRACON to coordinate thru. Some have SFC-2500 while others have the entire surface area. Some might even have a departure fan of airspace. Varies by facility.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
[
91.130(c)
Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
(2) Departing flight. Each person—
(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area; or
(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.
A few folks of this tread keep referring to ATC policy and now ATC internal agreements. Joe pilot needs to follow Part 91. It’s that simple.
91.130(c)
Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:
(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
(2) Departing flight. Each person—
(i) From the primary airport or satellite airport with an operating control tower must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the control tower, and thereafter as instructed by ATC while operating in the Class C airspace area; or
(ii) From a satellite airport without an operating control tower, must establish and maintain two-way radio communications with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class C airspace area as soon as practicable after departing.
A few folks of this tread keep referring to ATC policy and now ATC internal agreements. Joe pilot needs to follow Part 91. It’s that simple.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I don’t see your point. The issue was (and I don’t know if it was yours) if you are talking to approach and going through tower’s airspace that you have to contact the tower in order to verify that you are cleared into that airspace. You don’t.
for departure of course you will talk to the tower first because they are the ones that clear you for take off. Then after you are airborne, the tower will tell you to contact departure which is a sector in the approach faculty. The departure controller is most likely sitting right next to the approach controller or in some cases, is the same person if it isn’t busy.
or am I missing something?
for departure of course you will talk to the tower first because they are the ones that clear you for take off. Then after you are airborne, the tower will tell you to contact departure which is a sector in the approach faculty. The departure controller is most likely sitting right next to the approach controller or in some cases, is the same person if it isn’t busy.
or am I missing something?
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Thanks for nit picking my oversimplified version of explaining why pilots don’t have to contact a tower while in flight following
Wasn't meant as a nitpick of you. Just explanatory for everyone. While we're here, just out of curiosity, how do they divvy things up there. What's the altitudes they give you and TUS and where's the line? Is the 10 used? And yes, I mean THE
bcool
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just a clarification of this for the newby IFR pilots out there, don't assume you can always 'easily' get a pop-up clearance. I tried that a while back (I think I was talking to a military controller, who was a little busy) and he proceeded to tell me to call Flight Service and provided a laundry list of items I should be prepared to give them (basically everything on the flight plan form). I didn't want to go through all that so I just worked around the clouds.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Wasn't meant as a nitpick of you. Just explanatory for everyone. While we're here, just out of curiosity, how do they divvy things up there. What's the altitudes they give you and TUS and where's the line? Is the 10 used? And yes, I mean THE
We have surface to 5500’ out to 5 miles and I-10 is the dividing line between DM and TUS
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, my snark in post #104 above is clearly covered for departures. This all started out with and I assume is still about you are already with ATC, be it Approach or Center on Flight Following. You are being '...provided air traffic services...' [ (c) (1) ] There is a reason that is said and not "...ATC facility having jurisdiction..." as in 91.129 (a). You are "...otherwise authorized..." (c) (1) grants the authorization.
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Velocity173
No one is telling Joe Pilot not to follow Part 91. If anything, we’re providing references that support Part 91. Knowing that tower has delegated airspace (surface area) within a C isn’t import to the average pilot transitioning the area. However, having prior ATC experience and knowing they’re the facility providing ATC service does expedite things.
Sometimes the “facility providing ATC service” can be more than one controller. Example, one time I was departing a hospital just outside of the Nashville class C surface area but under the shelf. I departed straight for the core of the surface area and went directly up tower. Now, calling approach would’ve sufficed as well but I knew they’d be jumping through hoops to coordinate with tower. Tower radar ID’d me, assigned a vector and at or below 4,600 (presumably top of tower’s airspace). Eventually they handed me off to approach who cancelled my vector and altitude assignment. When I got back to work, I called BNA TRACON and spoke to the supervisor. I was just curious if that’s what they preferred. She said absolutely. It’s tower’s airspace in the core of the C and that I should be contacting them vs approach. Would I have been operating IAW 91.130 to go with approach first? Yep, but it’s a heck of a lot easier on them to go straight to tower.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
The only thing you are missing is that it is not as clear to pilots as it is to you and other controllers. There is conflicting info out there, I posted a couple links above. But since you and Velocity piped up I feel a little better about not asking.
I'm flying down the east coast next week, maybe I'll take a poll of the controllers I talk to.
BrianNC
En-Route
Is Flight Following a Clearance?
Subscriber question:
“Is being on flight following enough to enter Class B, C, and D airspace? Or do I need a clearance?” — Charley V.
John:
“Let’s get the two easy ones out of the way first.
A separate and specific clearance is always required for Class B airspace. Even if you are receiving advisories from the Class B controller outside the Bravo, it does not constitute a Class B clearance.
Class C airspace never requires a separate clearance. If you are in two-way communications with the controlling facility, you satisfy the requirements for authorization through Class C airspace.
Class D transitions are the sticky point. Talking to a Center or Approach controller on flight following does not necessarily satisfy the requirement for communication with the controlling agency: the Class D tower.
However, the Controller’s handbook says a pilot is not expected to obtain their own clearance through a Class C or D while receiving advisories. The controller should step up and coordinate for the pilot, and should also let the pilot know this has occurred. Sometimes coordination is unnecessary even though it looks like you’ll pass through the Class D. It’s common for the top 500 feet of Class D airspace to be delegated to an Approach Control.
But the overall responsibility for complying with Class D communications requirements still lies with the pilot. It’s best to speak up and ensure that the Approach or Center controller knows you intend to transition the airspace, and has coordinated with the tower for you if necessary.
Keep in mind that this is an additional service that is workload permitting. If the controller is too busy to coordinate, radar service should be terminated in a timely manner so the pilot is able to contact the Class D facility directly prior to entry.“
https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/atc_...paign=tip&mc_cid=efaa2f799b&mc_eid=f6a895ca1b
Subscriber question:
“Is being on flight following enough to enter Class B, C, and D airspace? Or do I need a clearance?” — Charley V.
John:
“Let’s get the two easy ones out of the way first.
A separate and specific clearance is always required for Class B airspace. Even if you are receiving advisories from the Class B controller outside the Bravo, it does not constitute a Class B clearance.
Class C airspace never requires a separate clearance. If you are in two-way communications with the controlling facility, you satisfy the requirements for authorization through Class C airspace.
Class D transitions are the sticky point. Talking to a Center or Approach controller on flight following does not necessarily satisfy the requirement for communication with the controlling agency: the Class D tower.
However, the Controller’s handbook says a pilot is not expected to obtain their own clearance through a Class C or D while receiving advisories. The controller should step up and coordinate for the pilot, and should also let the pilot know this has occurred. Sometimes coordination is unnecessary even though it looks like you’ll pass through the Class D. It’s common for the top 500 feet of Class D airspace to be delegated to an Approach Control.
But the overall responsibility for complying with Class D communications requirements still lies with the pilot. It’s best to speak up and ensure that the Approach or Center controller knows you intend to transition the airspace, and has coordinated with the tower for you if necessary.
Keep in mind that this is an additional service that is workload permitting. If the controller is too busy to coordinate, radar service should be terminated in a timely manner so the pilot is able to contact the Class D facility directly prior to entry.“
https://pilotworkshop.com/tips/atc_...paign=tip&mc_cid=efaa2f799b&mc_eid=f6a895ca1b
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Velocity173
The only thing you are missing is that it is not as clear to pilots as it is to you and other controllers. There is conflicting info out there, I posted a couple links above. But since you and Velocity piped up I feel a little better about not asking.
I'm flying down the east coast next week, maybe I'll take a poll of the controllers I talk to.
Yeah but in the future if you don’t ask and somehow get a 91.129 violation, don’t mention me to the FSDO!