Do you fly DPs and STARs?

S

ScottVal

Pre-Flight
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Messages
34
Display Name
Display name:
Scott
Hello,
I'm working on my IFR rating, and I was wondering whether you actually fly DPs and STARs. I live in the Midwest, where air traffic is not too congested, and I've never been assigned a DP or STAR, nor do I know anyone who has.

I'm under the impression that DPs and STARs are mainly for use by "heavies," and perhaps also in more congested parts of the world, like the area between D.C. and Boston, or Los Angeles, or Europe.

Also, they seem more useful for long flights, for example, if I was flying from Kansas City to St. Louis, if I used a DP, I wouldn't even need a STAR, because the DP would probably have me transitioning right near St. Louis! Does that mean I wouldn't be assigned a DP at all, or I might get a DP but not a STAR?

I should probably ask my instructor these things, but I won't be seeing him until Friday, and besides, I'd like to see what ya'll have to say!!

Thanks. -Scott
 
In KC, you won't get one unless you file higher altitudes (well over 8k), even then unless you are fast/heavy you probably won't get one. Headings and then cleared as filed work well enough most of the time. .
 
I use them a lot. I live in Denver and fly to Dallas a lot. In busy Class B areas you'll be asssigned a DP (even if it is just a generic radar vector DP) and maybe a STAR unless you file not to have one.

Flying to Dallas from Denver I go PLAIN5.GLD and into Dallas it is the GREGG6 (I forget the transition). Back out of Dallas I used the Kingdom Seven, Wichita Falls transition which takes you directly over DFW airport which was cool. Then into Denver I file the QUAIL Seven Hugo transition.

If I didn't file one out of Denver they'd at least give me the Denver Six, which is radar vectors, to some transition point. However, I seldom have to fly the entire DP to the transition. Usually I get cleared direct destination once I am handed off to Center.
 
Here at FRG you will get the Famingdale 4 Departure 99.99% of the time. I have never gotten a STAR. STAR's are for aircraft to transition from en route part of flight to the terminal phase of flight and are not really given to single engine piston or twin engine pistons. Here is the Lendy 6 arrival into the NY area. You an see in the note that says "STAR applicable to Turbojet and Turboprop aircraft capable of operating at 250K or greater at FL190." I assume you get a runway heading or a vector when you get cleared for take like "Cessna 12345 cleared for takeoff 24, fly runway heading." or "Cessna 12345 cleared for takeoff 24, turn right heading 270."
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/00610LENDY.PDF
 
Yeah I fly them all the time, so you definitely want know how to do them. But you're right though, you won't be getting very many STARs if your flying a single piston. SIDs on the other hand you can expect to get if you depart a busy class D or any class C. Remember some SIDs only instruct you to fly runway heading and climb to 3K, you can expect to do plenty of those.
 
Denver uses them for us little guys. Houston may or may not use them depending on where yer goin'.

It's just an easy way for ATC to put you on a known path until they either give you vectors (on arrival) or own navigation (on departure). Sometimes it doesn't even make sense (from a navigation point-of-view) to give the arrival and they do it anyway. Arriving on the west side of Denver enroute to Front Range and they still put me on a STAR headed directly to DEN. I asked if that's what they really wanted knowing full well I was going to get vectors around the north side of DEN and ATC stuck to their instructions. It wasn't 5 minutes later I was on vectors around the north side....
 
ja_user said:
In KC, you won't get one unless you file higher altitudes (well over 8k), even then unless you are fast/heavy you probably won't get one. Headings and then cleared as filed work well enough most of the time. .
Click to expand...

On a recently flight out of KTOP in Topeka, this is pretty much what we got. Clearance originally included the IRW.GREGG6 arrival, but not long after we were at cruise altitude and southbound, ATC gave us "Direct Denton".
 
Since DPs and STARs are designed for the purpose of simplifying clearances, it's not surprising that they're issued in busier areas. Around DC, I usually get the IRONS FOUR arrival back into VKX coming up from the south. It can be a little suprising if you aren't used to one and you get a clearance that includes them. It's a good practice as part of your preflight planning to see if the departure or Arrival airports have any procedures ahead of time so you won't be caught off guard.
 
If you have a modern panel mount IFR GPS the SID and STAR routes are in there. Best to know how to access them, know what altitude ATC wants you to follow, etc before you get assigned one someday. Sure you can say no sid/star but when you do be prepared to have to enter the same waypoints into the GPS.
I fly a 1000 lb 2 seater and have been assigned them.
 
Thanks, guys for all the great replies. I personally enjoy using flight simulators when I'm not actually flying, and I can practice using DPs and STARs in flight simulators. Then I was wondering how often I could expect to see them in real life...

-Scott
 
Yes, I've flown SIDs many times and STARs too but those less often. I fly a Cessna 170. I think their use is becoming more common.
 
Is there a way to find in advance which DP you're likely to get?

It's no fun when I'm sitting on the ramp, burning gas, trying to figure out a DP. I would rather know beforehand.
 
NoHeat said:
Is there a way to find in advance which DP you're likely to get?

It's no fun when I'm sitting on the ramp, burning gas, trying to figure out a DP. I would rather know beforehand.
Click to expand...

Well you could listen to what other pilots are getting. If ATC is likely to issue SIDs they're likely to be handing them out to everyone.

I almost always get CAPITAL (now up to) EIGHT out of IAD. Whether I get the STAR or not is variable.
 
ja_user said:
In KC, you won't get one unless you file higher altitudes (well over 8k), even then unless you are fast/heavy you probably won't get one. Headings and then cleared as filed work well enough most of the time. .
Click to expand...

Hi, Sam. I just sent you an email. Unrelated.
 
Fly out of KORD and you will always get the O'Hare 8 departure, but that's not more than RVs and a couple easy altitude restrictions. You'll be assigned one out of St. Louis (KSTL or KSUS for sure) if you file above 7,000. But with that, they'll almost always treat it like the O'8 and it's simply RVs and a couple altitudes until you shortly get direct to destination or other major fix. One time I requested to actually fly the entire Turbo7.ENL outta KSUS and it seemed like more of a hassle for them...
 
NoHeat said:
Is there a way to find in advance which DP you're likely to get?
Click to expand...

Using flight planners like FltPlan.com and ForeFlight, you can see the recently assigned clearances for your departure/destination pair. If a SID or STAR was employed, you'll see it there.

It's no fun when I'm sitting on the ramp, burning gas, trying to figure out a DP. I would rather know beforehand.
Click to expand...

If you have FF on the iPad or a modern GPS, they can be a big help.
 
Last edited:
NoHeat said:
Is there a way to find in advance which DP you're likely to get?

It's no fun when I'm sitting on the ramp, burning gas, trying to figure out a DP. I would rather know beforehand.
Click to expand...
Sure. If you have ForeFlight, there's the Route Advisor which shows commonly cleared routes from ATC. I haven't used it in a while, but fltplan.com also used to have a similar feature.

Another, better option, is to call clearance before you start. IIRC, you can call up to 2 hours prior. I'm assuming, if doing this at an uncontrolled field, there's a way to get a "clearance valid" time along with the void time, that way you're not shutting down the airspace for a bit while sitting there planning the DP. But please, someone else with a bit more knowledge on that can chime in.
 
I meant, is there a way to find out when I'm planning my flight, before I even go to the airport?

It would be great if there were a handy list for an airport that said "if you're eastbound from KXXX, the XXX.X departure is likely, if you're southbound the YYY.Y departure is likely" Then I would know what page to print, and what route to brief, before I went to the airport.
 
I've gotten them fairly regularly. Some are clearly intended to jet traffic (and some are even labeled as such). Remember that all a SID or STAR really is shorthand - with a helpful chart - for a longer set of instructions. If that's the route ATC wants you to take, no reason not to assign it that way.

It really depends on the area. I've been in areas where SIDs and STARs are regularly assigned. Others where they are not, even when the assigned route is exactly the same.
 
NoHeat said:
I meant, is there a way to find out when I'm planning my flight, before I even go to the airport?

It would be great if there were a handy list for an airport that said "if you're eastbound from KXXX, the XXX.X departure is likely, if you're southbound the YYY.Y departure is likely" Then I would know what page to print, and what route to brief, before I went to the airport.
Click to expand...
It would be nice. FltPlan.com comes close when it ties routes to aircraft types.

Other than that, I look at the charts. Even at an airport with a lot of them, there are only a few at most that are going your way and make any sense at all. Some you can pretty much exclude when they say "for turbojet aircraft only."

Got an airport in mind as an example or just hypothesizing?
 
Last edited:
midlifeflyer said:
It would be nice. FltPlan.com comes close when it ties routes to aircraft types.
Click to expand...

Is it FltPlan.com's app that does geo-referenced plates and is free? A friend was showing me it on his iPad last week and I think that's who developed it.
 
NoHeat said:
I meant, is there a way to find out when I'm planning my flight, before I even go to the airport?

It would be great if there were a handy list for an airport that said "if you're eastbound from KXXX, the XXX.X departure is likely, if you're southbound the YYY.Y departure is likely" Then I would know what page to print, and what route to brief, before I went to the airport.
Click to expand...

Yes. See post #16.
 
write-stuff said:
Is it FltPlan.com's app that does geo-referenced plates and is free? A friend was showing me it on his iPad last week and I think that's who developed it.
Click to expand...
How can anyone do geo-refed plates for departures and arrivals, as those are not charted to scale?
 
write-stuff said:
Is it FltPlan.com's app that does geo-referenced plates and is free? A friend was showing me it on his iPad last week and I think that's who developed it.
Click to expand...
Yep that's them.

The app is still a bit too unstable for my taste for cockpit use but the site itself is probably the one most used by corporate pilots and non-dispatcher Part 135 operations. The layout is not the most modern but the accuracy of the information, planning data and calculations is amazing.
 
SID's are routinely assigned to light planes at bigger or busier airports -- Arsenal SID at Manassas VA (KHEF), Farmingdale SID at Republic on Long Island (KFRG), and the Allegheny SID at Allegheny County (KAGC) in Pittsburgh PA are a few examples. STAR's are a lot less common, although if you arrive in Baltimore (either BWI or Martin State) from the west at 9000 or above, you'll get the Westminster STAR even in a light single.
 
I've only had one SID, coming out of Fort Collins. I was a brand new, wet behind the ears IA. Called up Denver Approach to pick up my clearance in the air, they give me Plains....something, flummoxed the daylights out of me.
Me "Ah... Denver, going to take me awhile to find the chart."
Denver " Fly heading XXX at XXXX ft"
Shortly thereafter, "Cleared direct as filed"
 
midlifeflyer said:
It would be nice. FltPlan.com comes close when it ties routes to aircraft types.

Other than that, I look at the charts. Even at an airport with a lot of them, there are only a few at most that are going your way and make any sense at all. Some you can pretty much exclude when they say "for turbojet aircraft only."

Got an airport in mind as an example or just hypothesizing?
Click to expand...
This^^^
Study the charts as a part of your flight planning, you can usually narrow it down to one likely and maybe another one or two possibles, depending. For example....there's two SIDs out of Boeing Field, Seattle, both obviously designed to keep you from tangling with SEA-TAC traffic, if they're using 13L & 13R you'll get the KENT SIX DEPARTURE, if they're using 31L & 31R you'll get the NEEDLE EIGHT DEPARTURE.
 
At my home base (KFCM near Minneapolis) ATC will always assign a SID if you file IFR at an altitude higher than 7000. I usually file at or below 7000 to avoid them since they usually take me out of my way more so than the typical vectoring I get without a departure procedure.
 
petrolero said:
In busy Class B areas you'll be asssigned a DP (even if it is just a generic radar vector DP) and maybe a STAR unless you file not to have one.
Click to expand...

When you file "no SIDs/STARs", you're not telling ATC not to assign you a SID or STAR. You're telling ATC that you don't have the SID/STAR plates with you, so they can't just clear you to fly the "WAYIN Arrival" and expect you to look it up in the book--you're telling them they have to spell out all the intermediate waypoints that make up the WAYIN Arrival procedure.

So...be careful what you (don't) ask for. You might get it.
 
ScottVal said:
Hello,
I'm working on my IFR rating, and I was wondering whether you actually fly DPs and STARs. I live in the Midwest, where air traffic is not too congested, and I've never been assigned a DP or STAR, nor do I know anyone who has.

I'm under the impression that DPs and STARs are mainly for use by "heavies," and perhaps also in more congested parts of the world, like the area between D.C. and Boston, or Los Angeles, or Europe.

Also, they seem more useful for long flights, for example, if I was flying from Kansas City to St. Louis, if I used a DP, I wouldn't even need a STAR, because the DP would probably have me transitioning right near St. Louis! Does that mean I wouldn't be assigned a DP at all, or I might get a DP but not a STAR?

I should probably ask my instructor these things, but I won't be seeing him until Friday, and besides, I'd like to see what ya'll have to say!!

Thanks. -Scott
Click to expand...

If you don't get assigned a SID, you should consider flying the obstacle departure procedure (ODP), especially if you ever fly in a mountainous area. And make sure that your aircraft can make the minimum climb gradient required, because if you don't, then the ODP won't guarantee obstacle clearance.
 
Palmpilot said:
If you don't get assigned a SID, you should consider flying the obstacle departure procedure (ODP), especially if you ever fly in a mountainous area. And make sure that your aircraft can make the minimum climb gradient required, because if you don't, then the ODP won't guarantee obstacle clearance.
Click to expand...
ODPs are important in many non-mountainous areas any time the wx is such that you wouldn't depart VFR. You're not required to use them but unless you know your planned route will provide adequate terrain clearance, following an ODP (including the wx mins for that) is a very good idea. This is something that was NOT covered in my IR training.
 
At my previous home base, you always got SBA2 to first waypoint heading West or North and KWANG5 to first waypoint If East or Southbound- didn't matter IFR or VFR.
 
flyingron said:
Well you could listen to what other pilots are getting. If ATC is likely to issue SIDs they're likely to be handing them out to everyone.

I almost always get CAPITAL (now up to) EIGHT out of IAD. Whether I get the STAR or not is variable.
Click to expand...

Great point there. The LiveATC app is fantastic for training. Listen to any airport that has significant GA traffic and listen for the clearances that GA planes get.

There are lots of DPs and STARs that say "Turbojets Only on the plan view - ignore those. Also ignore route segments that have MEAs that are above your plane's performance capabilities - you won't get those. But Most cities have DPs that work for GA aircraft. In major cities there is usually a "GA" (my term - it doesn't actually say that on the plate) DP covering each cardinal direction with multiple transitions on each one. Trouble is Foreflight has no way to filter DPs so you just have to look through them.

It is also good for listening to typical IFR operations in your area. I am the kind of nerd who listens to LiveATC instead of Spotify on the way to work. :loco:
 
Last edited:
As folks noted before, at HEF you'll get the ARSNL departure - a lot of flyers out reminding pilots to maintain mandatory altitudes on the DP... seems that a lot of folks were busting altitude, and in turn busting the IAD Class B. The DP is designed to avoid entering the Bravo.

Used to get the arrival procedures (STAR) into SAT on a regular basis. Usually didn't get the DP, but was often assigned routings that joined the DP.

You won't get them everywhere, but they are more common than one might think.
 
I love em. Saves waiting on ATC for a specific instruction.

Still some people have trouble with them, for example I read somewhere that the Northtown departure off of KVGT had over 80 deviations in a two year span.

Of course that might just be the hangovers talking.
 
Alexb2000 said:
..........................
Still some people have trouble with them, for example I read somewhere that the Northtown departure off of KVGT had over 80 deviations in a two year span.
Click to expand...
Maybe the controllers bring some of this on themselves? A few years ago I was departing North Las Vegas, issued the Northtown departure. I read back the clearance and then maybe 30 seconds later ground called and asked if I was ready to taxi? I replied not yet, I'm studying the departure chart.......I'll let you know when I'm ready. So maybe 2 minutes later I was satisfied I understood what to do and called "ready to taxi". He gave me taxi instructions to the penalty box and left me there for half an hour :mad: I guess they'd rather have unfamiliar pilots just blast off and ad-lib it?
 
Jim_R said:
When you file "no SIDs/STARs", you're not telling ATC not to assign you a SID or STAR. You're telling ATC that you don't have the SID/STAR plates with you
Click to expand...

which is probably a lie unless you tore them out of the book. I don't think any of the iOS or Android EFBs allow one to select terminal procedures and exclude SIDs and STARs.

"No SID no STAR" is pretty much a holdover from a time in the distant past when they might have been in different publications (any aviation history buffs who know?)

Either that or today it just means, "Hi I'm a pilot who would rather take down a long complicated clearance than look at a chart where it's shown."
 
Last edited:
All these strange acronyms. :lol: I thought a DP was something you do with your buddy and his wife.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top