Do you fly DPs and STARs?

As an aside, note that even if a SID or STAR has high altitudes, it might still be assigned (in the absence of such things as published limitation to jets). A good example is the Drone STAR into the Virginia Beach area (Page 1; Page 2).

Despite published altitudes of FL190 down to 11,000' its is regularly assigned to light aircraft coming from RDU and points west, although at a much lower altitude.
 
midlifeflyer said:
"No SID to STAR" is pretty much a holdover from a time in the distant past when they might have been in different publications (any aviation history buffs who know?)
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When I asked the "no SID no STAR" question to Ron Levy, the multiple books answer is what he explained. IAP's were in one, and the SIDS/STARS in others. So the pilots of old might have had the correct book with them, but left it stashed in the brain bag which was possibly stowed out of reach.

But now, with our tablets, EFB's, and more modern GPS units that have the departures and arrivals as part of the data download, it's simple enough to pull them up and execute once the PIC/PF is properly briefed.
 
Ron Levy said:
STAR's are a lot less common, although if you arrive in Baltimore (either BWI or Martin State) from the west at 9000 or above, you'll get the Westminster STAR even in a light single.
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Ahh...good point...altitude. That would seem to match the times I've been giving the BARIN ONE coming in from the south.
 
AggieMike88 said:
When I asked the "no SID no STAR" question to Ron Levy, the multiple books answer is what he explained. IAP's were in one, and the SIDS/STARS in others. So the pilots of old might have had the correct book with them, but left it stashed in the brain bag which was possibly stowed out of reach.

But now, with our tablets, EFB's, and more modern GPS units that have the departures and arrivals as part of the data download, it's simple enough to pull them up and execute once the PIC/PF is properly briefed.
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You don't need a tablet or EFB. NACO puts the SID/STARs in the same book as the plates now (though for some dumbass historical reason, they aren't filed in the same place as the plates like Jeppesen does).
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Maybe the controllers bring some of this on themselves? A few years ago I was departing North Las Vegas, issued the Northtown departure. I read back the clearance and then maybe 30 seconds later ground called and asked if I was ready to taxi? I replied not yet, I'm studying the departure chart.......I'll let you know when I'm ready. So maybe 2 minutes later I was satisfied I understood what to do and called "ready to taxi". He gave me taxi instructions to the penalty box and left me there for half an hour :mad: I guess they'd rather have unfamiliar pilots just blast off and ad-lib it?
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Well since you brought it up, that same thing happened to me at KVGT. I went, screwed up the VOR frequency, asked for it, got my ass royally chewed, nothing new for SOCAL though. Oh well, I won that weekend so nothing was going to bring me down.

Since then no worries. DFW is much friendlier and DPs and STARs are all we fly around here.
 
midlifeflyer said:
As an aside, note that even if a SID or STAR has high altitudes, it might still be assigned (in the absence of such things as published limitation to jets). A good example is the Drone STAR into the Virginia Beach area (Page 1; Page 2).

Despite published altitudes of FL190 down to 11,000' its is regularly assigned to light aircraft coming from RDU and points west, although at a much lower altitude.
Click to expand...

I've heard that in Denver too and I wish I could file it that way. Well I guess I could file it any way I want, but I haven't tried. There are a couple transitions that would work better for me but they have route segments at FL230 which is TRACON's max altitude.

Has anyone tried filing for lower altitudes on transitions with high MEAs? My guess is that they might assign me those transition fixes but not exactly the DP?
 
midlifeflyer said:
"No SID no STAR" is pretty much a holdover from a time in the distant past when they might have been in different publications (any aviation history buffs who know?)
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Correct. Forty years ago, there were two separate SID/STAR books (one east of the Mississippi and one west of it), and those who never went anywhere there was one didn't buy the book. Now, unless you print out only the charts you plan to use, you get the all the SID/STAR charts in your TPP book, Jepp subscription, or EFB terminal procedures download.
 
flyingron said:
You don't need a tablet or EFB. NACO puts the SID/STARs in the same book as the plates now (though for some dumbass historical reason, they aren't filed in the same place as the plates like Jeppesen does).
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Agree and correct on the highlighted for today's publications... I was addressing the historical reasons for the question.
 
petrolero said:
Has anyone tried filing for lower altitudes on transitions with high MEAs? My guess is that they might assign me those transition fixes but not exactly the DP?
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I've raised that question on one of the boards (maybe here) about whether it would be proper for me to file the DRONE arrival. The consensus (not a rule by any means) was that it would not make sense to file it as a STAR since the STAR MEA is so high. So I file the fixes and get assigned the STAR :lol: Really, though, I suspect I could file the STAR to begin with with no problem.

The Denver ones are a bit different. As I recall, except maybe for some of the PLAINS transitions, even the ones that are not limited to jets or turboprops have high MEAs that are really MEAs. To see what I mean by "real MEAs", compare the MEAs for the Denver transitions with the MEAs on the en route chart. Then go to the DRONE one and compare the exact same route on the en route chart.
 
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I was intimidated by STARs until I learned that the GPS units like the 430 makes these pretty simple to pull up and fly esp if you are asked to amend your flight plan mid-flight. I've been asked to fly a STAR 4 out of 6 times now coming into DFW Class B mid-flight (I am a newly minted IFR cloud puncher). I had direct clearance to an airport south of Love Field when coming in from the north on an IFR flight plan - the STAR swings you to the northeast outside of Bravo. So other than it being slightly off course, and a slight annoyance when asked to amend mid-flight, it is fairly simple. If not sure what STAR is being asked for or what the routing is, ask the controller to standby while you give yourself time to read the chart before you confirm. Once you confirm it, you are on the hook to fly it. And, all else fails - ask for vectors, or unable.

I flew a STAR the first time with an instructor and then, thereafter, fumbled through myself.

Now feel like it is SOP.
 
ssonixx said:
I was intimidated by STARs until I learned that the GPS units like the 430 makes these pretty simple to pull up and fly...
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For some reason, many pilots have had this same intimidation. I supect it's related someone to pilot intimidation heading into Class C and B airspace - simple lack of familiarity.

But to me, a procedure with a nice chart to follow always beats the same procedure without a chart to follow, with or without GPS.
 
NorCal approach likes to assign the Point Reyes One Arrival to IFR aircraft coming to Palo Alto Airport (PAO) from the north. My only beef with that is that it takes me beyond gliding distance from land.
 
midlifeflyer said:
For some reason, many pilots have had this same intimidation. I supect it's related someone to pilot intimidation heading into Class C and B airspace - simple lack of familiarity.

But to me, a procedure with a nice chart to follow always beats the same procedure without a chart to follow, with or without GPS.
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I suspect you are correct regarding lack of familiarity. I may be wrong but do not seem to recall doing any SID's or STAR's during my instrument training.
There was another thread recently regarding the training value of ice. Seems as those for it in non-FIFI get beat up when having the courage to state they support it on this board. Without going off on a tangent, I believe the lack of familiarity many have (as I had) with SID's / STAR's is just more evidence of many of us being under-prepared in our instrument training.
 
FORANE said:
I suspect you are correct regarding lack of familiarity. I may be wrong but do not seem to recall doing any SID's or STAR's during my instrument training.
There was another thread recently regarding the training value of ice. Seems as those for it in non-FIFI get beat up when having the courage to state they support it on this board. Without going off on a tangent, I believe the lack of familiarity many have (as I had) with SID's / STAR's is just more evidence of many of us being under-prepared in our instrument training.
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For better or for worse, instrument training is primarily focused on instrument approaches, probably because they are the most workload intensive and the stuff checkrides are made of. Cross country and en route flight, including departure and arrival, are given short shrift.
 
FORANE said:
I suspect you are correct regarding lack of familiarity. I may be wrong but do not seem to recall doing any SID's or STAR's during my instrument training.
There was another thread recently regarding the training value of ice. Seems as those for it in non-FIFI get beat up when having the courage to state they support it on this board. Without going off on a tangent, I believe the lack of familiarity many have (as I had) with SID's / STAR's is just more evidence of many of us being under-prepared in our instrument training.
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Was this due to the fact that SID's were never issued at your home airport? I flew SID's all the time during training (I guess they issue them here more in NY). My instructor and I just talked about STAR's. On our X countries, we were never assigned a STAR but almost always we received a SID. Most of the SID's were simple, like turn to a heading and maintain XXXX ft.
 
jordane93 said:
Was this due to the fact that SID's were never issued at your home airport? I flew SID's all the time during training (I guess they issue them here more in NY). My instructor and I just talked about STAR's. On our X countries, we were never assigned a STAR but almost always we received a SID. Most of the SID's were simple, like turn to a heading and maintain XXXX ft.
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I hardly ever trained at my home airport.

At the time of my instrument training I was working every other week 7p-7a Sat night through the following Sat morning. On the weekend I would fly out of state and work Mon-Fri typically something like 7a-3p only to fly back home the following weekend to work night shift. The week out of state would vary location. I may work in one location only 1 week or it might be 3-4 weeks.
I picked up instrument training as I could in the day shift week. I went through 10 different instructors in that time.

To be fair, I think we discussed SID's / STAR's but honestly do not think we ever actually flew one.
 
I'm quite certain that SIDs and STARs were never discussed during my training, even though we occasionally shot approaches at airports where they are routinely given out. Everything I know about them I learned from studying the charts, and also the Pilot Guide to my GPS and Keith Thomassen's book on the unit (GNS-480).

I'm sure it would have been different, though, if there were SIDs or STARs for my home airport.
 
All IFR flights out of KAPA in Denver are cleared using some kind of DP. Often it is the generic Denver Six.. radar vectors but there are four others that can be used by GA low-flyers and are fairly common.

But in training we didn't focus much on DPs and STARs other than to say that a pilot should look at them and file them in busy airspace. I operate a lot in Class B cities (Denver, Dallas, Houston) and have founds DPs and STARs to be pretty common there. In those cases there are many procedures from which to choose.

But in Class C/D cities like Tulsa they aren't used much for GA in my experience.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I love em. Saves waiting on ATC for a specific instruction.

Still some people have trouble with them, for example I read somewhere that the Northtown departure off of KVGT had over 80 deviations in a two year span.

Of course that might just be the hangovers talking.
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Why so many deviations? Do people miss the crossing restriction at RUZCO or something? Other than that, it's pretty standard...
 
GCA319 said:
Why so many deviations? Do people miss the crossing restriction at RUZCO or something? Other than that, it's pretty standard...
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I believe if you look at the prior posts there is a pattern. SoCal telling you to use the Northtown DP in your clearance and giving you about 30 seconds to brief it or they send you too the penalty box for 30 minutes to think about it. I have flown in and out enough I know the game, but the first time it really does catch you by surprise, especially the "depart immediately or your clearance is null". So you end up rolling because you don't want to sit on that 115 degree ramp, then you get in a hurry, and you screw something up. That and SoCal just seems to want to report a deviation.

Otherwise, the DP isn't hard at all, none of them are.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I believe if you look at the prior posts there is a pattern. SoCal telling you to use the Northtown DP in your clearance and giving you about 30 seconds to brief it or they send you too the penalty box for 30 minutes to think about it. I have flown in and out enough I know the game, but the first time it really does catch you by surprise, especially the "depart immediately or your clearance is null". So you end up rolling because you don't want to sit on that 115 degree ramp, then you get in a hurry, and you screw something up. That and SoCal just seems to want to report a deviation.

Otherwise, the DP isn't hard at all, none of them are.
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Why would SoCal be issuing a DP at KVGT?
 
Ron Levy said:
SID's are routinely assigned to light planes at bigger or busier airports -- Arsenal SID at Manassas VA (KHEF), Farmingdale SID at Republic on Long Island (KFRG), and the Allegheny SID at Allegheny County (KAGC) in Pittsburgh PA are a few examples. STAR's are a lot less common, although if you arrive in Baltimore (either BWI or Martin State) from the west at 9000 or above, you'll get the Westminster STAR even in a light single.
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My experience has been the opposite - I've never gotten a SID, and in several trips into Baltimore the last few years I've never gotten the STAR either - I just always get MRB EMI KBWI on the way in, almost the same thing as the STAR without a transition. I'm sure it's to keep people from straying into P-40 as much as it is for traffic.

The only STAR I've ever been assigned was the Blubell Three (Houston) on my way from KFTW to KEFD on an IMC day.
 
Alexb2000 said:
The tower relays it but approach/departure is controlled by ZLA.
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Ahhhh, no...

SCT "SoCal" = Southern California TRACON, which has nothing to do with Vegas.
ZLA = Los Angeles Center, which would control the airspace way up high above Vegas
L30 = Las Vegas TRACON, who handles approach and departure services for KVGT. They're the ones who the tower is on the phone with.

Maybe they put you in the penalty box for calling them SoCal. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ahhhh, no...

SCT "SoCal" = Southern California TRACON, which has nothing to do with Vegas.
ZLA = Los Angeles Center, which would control the airspace way up high above Vegas
L30 = Las Vegas TRACON, who handles approach and departure services for KVGT. They're the ones who the tower is on the phone with.

Maybe they put you in the penalty box for calling them SoCal. ;)
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I meant the facility called ZLA in Palmdale, CA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Air_Route_Traffic_Control_Center

That facility does control approach departure out of the Las Vegas basin both KLAS and KVGT. I was using the term SoCal generically, because people that work at that facility tend to be short tempered IME.
 
Umm no. VGT is handled by the Las Vegas TRACON or Nellis depending on your direction of flight.
 
If I'm not mistaken these clearances originate at ARTCC, that would be Los Angeles Center in the Las Vegas area. The rush job came from North Las Vegas Ground control altho' if it's common I'd guess it's a policy of North Vegas Tower.
 
flyingron said:
Umm no. VGT is handled by the Las Vegas TRACON or Nellis depending on your direction of flight.
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I can't believe this is so important to everyone. Personally I don't give a S where it comes from. I am just reading the ZLA wiki page that says they are the ARTCC for KVGT. I am obviously aware of TRACON which is now at McClaran, but I thought the IFR clearances came from the ARTCC. Why don't you educate us on how it works?
 
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