Do you carry a fire extinguisher?

[jordane93]

all the planes at my flight school have fire extinguishers. the place where i'm renting from to build time do not have fire extinguishers in them

 

[3393RP]

Depends on the system. At the DOJ data center, when the green lights started flashing, you had to get out of the space or get to the rescue packs (small Scott SCBAs) in 45 seconds. That particular halon system would NOT leave breathable atmosphere when it went off.

Again, these stories are inaccurate and promulgated by people that do not have a clear understanding of how gaseous suppression systems work.

In thirty years of experience building large data centers I have never seen a Halon system that would exceed the NOAEL when discharged. It isn't even legal to install a system that would kill someone.

From a fire extinguishing standpoint, it's not necessary. The concentration of gaseous agent needed to interrupt the combustion process is significantly less than the concentration that would cause observable interference with respiration, much less harm someone.

Why would an engineer specify a system which uses more gas than necessary? The volume of the protected space is carefully calculated and the gas required to provide the required concentration level as a percentage of that volume is provided. No more and no less...these calculations are done in accordance with NFPA code guidance.

 

[3393RP]

I was told to get out of the room before the doors locked (automatically). If you cannot get out in time, then lie down on the floor and don't panic because all the oxygen will be displaced. Someone will be there to help when you wake up. That was a few decades ago. I hope they have improved the technology.

The persons instructing you were misinformed. Halon 1301 systems did not displace enough oxygen to cause any breathing or health problems in personnel exposed to a discharge. This is also true of modern "clean agent" replacements for Halon 1301.

As for the doors, it's a violation of NFPA and building codes for doors to lock during a fire alarm event. It's been that way for decades.

 

[denverpilot]

We built 18 data centers in the early 90s. All were FM. Some previous facilities were Halon and no doors were ever locked from the inside, on any of them, ever. They'd never pass code inspection that way. Human life over equipment and even the building.

Many centers did have water backup. If the Halon didn't work the water would but you'd probably not want to go anywhere near the newly created shower stall / swimming pool until we dropped power to the site. Good way to get zapped. Easiest way to drop power was any of the guard covered EPO switches on the walls. Lift cover, push, it's going to get quiet and the only lights will be the batter operated emergency lights and exit signs.

Had a contractor trip an EPO once. That was a long day of rebooting crap. Ironically I was one of the only people with experience with Avaya gear and telecom mixes so I got "get connectivity and phones back online" duty. The joys of being the site Engineer. The NOC just handed me the next priority infrastructure piece or customer gear to troubleshoot each time I cleared the last.

Still found inattentive people working around a traditional telco -48V DC battery and distribution plant to get my full and undivided attention more than AC power problems. -48V DC at high amps across your heart will kill you quick. One screwup with a 00 cable and you're arc welding.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The persons instructing you were misinformed. Halon 1301 systems did not displace enough oxygen to cause any breathing or health problems in personnel exposed to a discharge. This is also true of modern "clean agent" replacements for Halon 1301.

Exactly. In the Navy, we have inadvertently discharged 1301 in spaces with people inside and no one died. What I do not know is if there have been any cases of 1301 use where there was an actual fire and personnel still in the space, which is why there is some debate as to how dangerous the byproducts of the Halon/fire reaction really are.

 

[flyingron]

OK, not the way water displaces air,

Water doesn't displace air in most firefighting, it is used to cool the fire down to below the temperature required to burn. Remember there's four things you have to have for a fire: heat, oxygen, fuel, and a battalion chief. Take away any one and you can't have a fire.

 

[TMetzinger]

Again, these stories are inaccurate and promulgated by people that do not have a clear understanding of how gaseous suppression systems work.

In thirty years of experience building large data centers I have never seen a Halon system that would exceed the NOAEL when discharged. It isn't even legal to install a system that would kill someone.

From a fire extinguishing standpoint, it's not necessary. The concentration of gaseous agent needed to interrupt the combustion process is significantly less than the concentration that would cause observable interference with respiration, much less harm someone.

Why would an engineer specify a system which uses more gas than necessary? The volume of the protected space is carefully calculated and the gas required to provide the required concentration level as a percentage of that volume is provided. No more and no less...these calculations are done in accordance with NFPA code guidance.

oh. you were there when we got briefed about what to do? they spent the money for scba for nothing?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

 

[Fearless Tower]

Water doesn't displace air in most firefighting, it is used to cool the fire down to below the temperature required to burn.

I think Ron was referring to water displacing air in a sense of flooding a space on fire like you would an ammunition magazine.

 

[Fearless Tower]

oh. you were there when we got briefed about what to do? they spent the money for scba for nothing?

The intent of the escape breathing pack may have been to protect from the byproduct of halon extinguishing the fire, not the Halon itself.

The other (more likely as I think about our own EEBDs) reason for having escape breathing devices available is to prevent folks in the space from being overcome by smoke while they egress.

 

[kontiki]

The thought of spraying chemicals into the air I'm breathing and peering through gives me the willies. Fire is bad, but I wonder if the cure isn't worse. From what I've seen of the discharge of those things it is.

But you are OK with auto exhaust? We live immersed in our waste.

 

[flyingron]

I think Ron was referring to water displacing air in a sense of flooding a space on fire like you would an ammunition magazine.

Still it's most likely cooling. Using CO2 or other things to displace oxygen will not work on things that burn with either their own oxidizer or have a fire that burns hot enough (like magnesium) to break down the agent (such as water).

 

[Fearless Tower]

Still it's most likely cooling. Using CO2 or other things to displace oxygen will not work on things that burn with either their own oxidizer or have a fire that burns hot enough (like magnesium) to break down the agent (such as water).

I agree with you, just think you were taking Ron's comment about displacing out of context.

 

[TMetzinger]

The intent of the escape breathing pack may have been to protect from the byproduct of halon extinguishing the fire, not the Halon itself.

The other (more likely as I think about our own EEBDs) reason for having escape breathing devices available is to prevent folks in the space from being overcome by smoke while they egress.

Could be. I'm repeating what we were told when we went up to work there, which was distilled down to "get out of the room when the green lights go on, because when the red lights go on the electric doors are shut and you'll have a hard time making it to/through the alternate exits while the halon discharge is underway, even with the SCBA".

As for locked doors, the rules are different when you're doing classified work. Yes, you're still supposed to be able to get out.
No, it's not as easy as running towards a door with a crash bar on it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Water doesn't displace air in most firefighting,

Sorry. As FT noted, that was not the analogy I was making. I was thinking of filling a closed but not sealed container with water, so the water displaces the air that was inside the container. If you pump a gas into that container, the gas mixes with the air rather than just displacing it, and what's left in the container is a mix of the two gases. So, when you flood a compartment with a gas like H1301 or CO2, after the initial mixing during the flooding process, you have a mix of gases in which the partial pressure of O2 is reduced in proportion to the ratio of mass of other gas added to the original mass of the air. If the O2 partial pressure is reduced enough (like when the H1301 concentration gets above about 60%), the result is like being at about FL250 without supplemental O2, and you pass out in fairly short order. OTOH, if you flood a compartment with water, as long as you can keep your head above the water level, you've got normal air and you can breathe.

BTW, if you dump CO2 into the compartment, the CO2 you breathe in affects the CO2 balance in your body, and that interrupts the normal breathing/O2 uptake/CO2 discharge process, and that's why you die at a lot less than 60% CO2. H1301 does not have that effect, so you can breathe a lot higher concentration of H1301 than CO2.

 

[Dean]

No, most likely an in flight fire will occur under the cowling, if the fire has reached the passenger compartment the smoke has already filled it and I am in no condition to put it out. Most people die from smoke inhalation, not the fire.

 

[teamcoltra]

Fire extinguisher was the first purchase I made for my plane after buying it.

 

[Hiperbiper]

39 gallons of fuel between the firewall and the panel. My little Halon bottle might help...you never know...


Chris

 

[Tom-D]

The best fire fighting thing we have is prevention, keep your aircraft properly maintained you'll have no problems.

When you have a fire while fueling, run like hell and use your insurance.

don't be a hero.

 

[bnt83]

The best fire fighting thing we have is prevention, keep your aircraft properly maintained you'll have no problems.

Yes and no. That's why transport category aircraft are REQUIRED (as applicable) to carry not only cabin & cockpit mounted fire extinuishers, but also automatic lavatory trash can, HRD baggage compartment, HRD APU and engine fire extinuishers.

Plenty of portable devices are carried onto personal aircraft that can catch fire. So unless you have an appropriate fire extinguisher, your airplane is less than perfect IMHO.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Yes, I carry a fire extinguisher. A fireman is too heavy.

One of Hubby's students is a fireman. During the pre-ignition briefing, he has changed the standard script to, "In case of fire, you fly the plane and I'll fight the fire."

 

[3393RP]

oh. you were there when we got briefed about what to do? they spent the money for scba for nothing?

I wasn't being argumentative or critical...

It's not uncommon for data center operational personnel to misunderstand how the infrastructure operates.

I have fielded dozens of phone calls in the middle of the night..."The power is off, the load switched to UPS then the generators came on. Now we are running on generator power. What should I do?"

Answer: "Nothing. System is working as designed."

Even though I went through hours of training them, they still didn't know How Things Work. More than a few heard old wives tales about their Halon systems, and anecdotal stories of horrible death by asphyxiation were somehow made into fact.

Some data centers have Scott packs because the corporate safety people demand them. They aren't necessary. When the pre-discharge alarm goes off, walking to the nearest exit is the appropriate response.

The only injury I've ever seen from a halon discharge was when an operator jumped over a raised floor railing trying to run out of the data center during an alarm sequence. He broke his arm when he landed on the floor.

 

[David]

Several years ago we got a call about a data center we designed. I guess the data center had been up and running for about six months. The head technician for the data center evacuated the data center because of foul odors that he though might be combustible. I told him it was probably a broken trap primer and to call the plumber that installed it. I suggested he find the floor drain under the raised floor and pour a pitcher of water in it until the plumber arrived. He was convinced that some piece of equipment was emitting the gas and refused. One of the staff was also on the call. He found the trap, poured some water in and called the plumber.

I wasn't being argumentative or critical...

It's not uncommon for data center operational personnel to misunderstand how the infrastructure operates.

I have fielded dozens of phone calls in the middle of the night..."The power is off, the load switched to UPS then the generators came on. Now we are running on generator power. What should I do?"

Answer: "Nothing. System is working as designed."

Even though I went through hours of training them, they still didn't know How Things Work. More than a few heard old wives tales about their Halon systems, and anecdotal stories of horrible death by asphyxiation were somehow made into fact.

Some data centers have Scott packs because the corporate safety people demand them. They aren't necessary. When the pre-discharge alarm goes off, walking to the nearest exit is the appropriate response.

The only injury I've ever seen from a halon discharge was when an operator jumped over a raised floor railing trying to run out of the data center during an alarm sequence. He broke his arm when he landed on the floor.