Departing IFR At Uncontrolled Airport - When To Turn With No Instructions

[LastXdeth]

Let's say you pick up your IFR clearance from center on the ground at an uncontrolled airport.

You then get to the takeoff runway and are subsequently release for departure without any additional instructions (no "fly heading XXX," "fly runway heading, " "proceed on course," nor "turn left/right direct XXXXX," ect., what do yall do?

Just fly straight out until your initial check in with ATC in the air OR should you start proceeding onto your cleared route that's from your clearance?

 

[Hang 4]

When you get the release with no departure instruction, why not just ask?

 

[MauleSkinner]

if the airport has instrument approaches, it’s also surveyed for departures. If no specific procedures are published, it has a “diverse departure area”, and once you’re above 400 feet you can make any turns you deem appropriate.

 

[midwestpa24]

If no other direction is given, it is assumed to proceed on course once you are at a safe altitude. You will be cleared to a waypoint or destination, so the assumption is you will turn towards the next clearance fix unless otherwise directed. Usually if they assign a heading, it is to help deconflict you with other traffic until they get you on radar and establish communications.

 

[midlifeflyer]

if the airport has instrument approaches, it’s also surveyed for departures. If no specific procedures are published, it has a “diverse departure area”, and once you’re above 400 feet you can make any turns you deem appropriate.

Exactly. If the airport has an instrument approach, it's either a diverse departure or there is an ODP even if it's a simple as waiting until a certain altitude before turning in a certain direction.

The only issue is when the departure airport has no instrument approach, so it was not surveyed for departure obstacles either. Then you are pretty much on your own. If you are into podcasts, Max and I discussed this on his Aviation NewsTalk podcast. And it was also the subject of an article I wrote for IFR Magazine (sorry, paywall).

And, btw, you want to be aware of this stuff even if the instruction does include, "upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading..." since until there is a vector (a heading after hearing the words, "radar contact") terrain and obstacle separation are on the pilot, not ATC.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you are into podcasts, Max and I discussed this on his Aviation NewsTalk podcast. And it was also the subject of an article I wrote for IFR Magazine (sorry, paywall).

Since I don’t have the patience to listen to podcasts and can’t get past the paywall, did you discuss the fact that the obstacles for an airport with no instrument approaches can be taller/steeper than the 200 ft/mile that the FAA assumes you will meet or exceed on climb from an “IFR airport”?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Since I don’t have the patience to listen to podcasts and can’t get past the paywall, did you discuss the fact that the obstacles for an airport with no instrument approaches can be taller/steeper than the 200 ft/mile that the FAA assumes you will meet or exceed on climb from an “IFR airport”?

You mean like this this stuff on my first solo IFR flight (I reflew it in x-plane when I was writing the article)? Why would I mention that? Just turn left on course. What's the big deal?

 

[Martin Pauly]

if the airport has instrument approaches, it’s also surveyed for departures. If no specific procedures are published, it has a “diverse departure area”, and once you’re above 400 feet you can make any turns you deem appropriate.

Correct. I would add that "any turns you deem appropriate" is safe from a terrain and obstacle perspective, though on an IFR clearance, you need to comply with the clearance (or published ODP, if you so choose).

On that note: I always thought that starting that first turn at 400 feet AGL isn't just safely possible, but is expected by ATC promptly - not for terrain and obstacle clearance, but for traffic or airspace needs. I.e. either fly an ODP or start turning towards your first fix in your cleared route at 400' AGL. But now that I'm looking, I cannot find clear language in Part 91 or the AIM saying the turn as to start the very moment I pass 400' AGL. Does anybody know?

Regards,
Martin

 

[midlifeflyer]

On that note: I always thought that starting that first turn at 400 feet AGL isn't just safely possible, but is expected by ATC promptly - not for terrain and obstacle clearance, but for traffic or airspace needs. I.e. either fly an ODP or start turning towards your first fix in your cleared route at 400' AGL. But now that I'm looking, I cannot find clear language in Part 91 or the AIM saying the turn as to start the very moment I pass 400' AGL. Does anybody know?

I have been in a few discussions on the subject but so far have never seen any guidance mandating a turn at precisely 400 AGL, not even from those who insisted it was some kind of requirement. Only that standard obstacle clearance is predicated on, to use the words of the IPH, "crossing the departure end of the runway (DER) at least 35 feet above the DER elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the DER elevation before making the initial turn, and maintaining a minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile (FPNM)."

The only time I am aware of it being any more than than has been at at busy times at towered airports with substantial jet traffic. It seems to have become such an SOP that I have had towers ask me to make that turn pretty close to 400 AGL to get me out of the way. I've heard them do it to VFR traffic as well . So, I'll do it then. Otherwise, while I won't take forever because I also know I'm not the only airplane in the IFR world, I don't rush it, especially when it's at least marginally VFR and there are other aircraft in a nontowered pattern.

 

[Martin Pauly]

The only time I am aware of it being any more than than has been at at busy times at towered airports with substantial jet traffic. It seems to have become such an SOP that I have had towers ask me to make that turn pretty close to 400 AGL to get me out of the way. I've heard them do it to VFR traffic as well . So, I'll do it then. Otherwise, while I won't take forever because I also know I'm not the only airplane in the IFR world, I don't rush it, especially when it's at least marginally VFR and there are other aircraft in a nontowered pattern.

Thanks, Mark.

Yes, what you wrote matches my experience. A prompt turn sometimes seems to be expected by ATC at those busier places.

- Martin

 

[Larry in TN]

If specific actions are required immediately after takeoff, those actions will be specified in your departure clearance or your release.

When all you get is "Cleared as filed" and "released" then ATC is protecting the airspace necessary for you to depart safely, maintain terrain clearance, and proceed on course.

The Red Board had a thread many years ago started by a Bonanza pilot who got in trouble departing IFR from the Grand Canyon (KGCN). He had a route filed from KGCN to GCN (on field) then via an airway. His clearance was "cleared as filed". GCN Tower told him "Runway 3, Cleared for takeoff" then transferred him to ABQ Center.

He had trained in the Midwest and had expected to receive vectors on departure. He didn't know what to do so he flew runway heading and called ABQ. They didn't have radar contact with him so just "rogered" his check on. He continued flying runway heading right into SFAR 50-2 airspace and right through a flight free zone.

Interestingly, the SID at the airport was N/A for runway 3 departures because remaining out of the flight free zone required turning within about 4nm of the airport. That would have to be a visual maneuver.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Let's say you pick up your IFR clearance from center on the ground at an uncontrolled airport.

You then get to the takeoff runway and are subsequently release for departure without any additional instructions (no "fly heading XXX," "fly runway heading, " "proceed on course," nor "turn left/right direct XXXXX," ect., what do yall do?

Just fly straight out until your initial check in with ATC in the air OR should you start proceeding onto your cleared route that's from your clearance?

What was your filed flight plan? Were you "cleared as filed"? Absent instructions to the contrary, follow your flight plan. If you were cleared for something else, follow that. As for what to do to get from takeoff to the flight plan, see if the airport has an obstacle departure procedure for your departure runway and follow it, otherwise do the standard turn at 400 AGL.

ATC isn't there to tell you what to do, they're there to keep you from hitting other planes. We do get spoiled because most of the time, especially in more populated areas of the country, they tell you what to do because they have to (to keep you from hitting stuff). But remember, you are the PIC. Go where you said you were going to, or where you were cleared to. And remember that ATC is made up of humans too, and sometimes they make mistakes, so be responsible for yourself AND communicate to ensure that you and ATC are on the same page.

 

[AvNavCom]

It seems to have become such an SOP...

I seem to recall the Opposing Bases guys discussing that the standard IFR clearance verbiage of "Expect *altitude* ten minutes after departure" is because that's the example which happens to be given in the ATC training. There's not actually any formal guidance to that effect, it seems, just a pure example of the law of primacy.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I seem to recall the Opposing Bases guys discussing that the standard IFR clearance verbiage of "Expect *altitude* ten minutes after departure" is because that's the example which happens to be given in the ATC training. There's not actually any formal guidance to that effect, it seems, just a pure example of the law of primacy.

I remember that one. That was about lost comm. You might get a "standard" clearance that starts of with "maintain 2000, expect filed altitude 10 minutes after departure." You lose comm shortly after departure. If you follow 91.185 exactly and wait those 10 minutes to climb out of 2,000 msl, you may very well be in a very bad place when you CFIT. They're just parroting 10 minutes and have no idea where you will be in 10 minutes, and could not care less about the regulatory rules of lost comm.

Yes, arguably, 91.185 does cover this since altitude is "the highest of" but I see it as another example of the disconnect between 91.185 and navigating in the NAS in the 21st century. We need to have good situational awareness and follow my favorite passage in the AIM - the guidance contained in very first paragraph of the AIM guidance on lost comm. (Paragraph 6-4-1 if you want to look)

 

[Martin Pauly]

I seem to recall the Opposing Bases guys discussing that the standard IFR clearance verbiage of "Expect *altitude* ten minutes after departure" is because that's the example which happens to be given in the ATC training. There's not actually any formal guidance to that effect, it seems, just a pure example of the law of primacy.

From the 7110.65:

4-3-2 DEPARTURE CLEARANCES
e. Altitude
3. Assign an altitude, as near as possible to the altitude requested by the pilot, and
(a) Inform the pilot when to expect clearance to the requested altitude unless instructions are contained in the specified SID, or
(b) If the requested altitude is not expected to be available, inform the pilot what altitude can be expected and when/where to expect it.

EXAMPLE-
“Cleared to Johnston Airport, Scott One departure, Jonez transition, Q One Forty-five, Climb Via SID except maintain flight level one eight zero, expect flight level three five zero one zero minutes after departure.”

Looks like pretty clear guidance for the controllers, though I admit I don't know how long the quoted items have been around in the .65.

- Martin

 

[Velocity173]

I seem to recall the Opposing Bases guys discussing that the standard IFR clearance verbiage of "Expect *altitude* ten minutes after departure" is because that's the example which happens to be given in the ATC training. There's not actually any formal guidance to that effect, it seems, just a pure example of the law of primacy.

Well it’s the phraseology example in the .65 forever so most facilities adopted it as standard. I think it was actually listed in our SOP just so everyone was on the same page. Everywhere I was stationed we used 10 minutes. While an arbitrary number and ATC most likely won’t care if you climb early, you’re still suppose to comply with it for lost comms.

Same with departure heading “when entering controlled airspace…” Even though the .65 states “if necessary” most facilities use it as a standard. Still gotta protect for traffic vertically but it does position the aircraft in a more predicable spot when they pop up on radar. We used heading for one particular non towered airport (ARW) in order to better protect our Class D.

 

[Velocity173]

From the 7110.65:

4-3-2 DEPARTURE CLEARANCES
e. Altitude
3. Assign an altitude, as near as possible to the altitude requested by the pilot, and
(a) Inform the pilot when to expect clearance to the requested altitude unless instructions are contained in the specified SID, or
(b) If the requested altitude is not expected to be available, inform the pilot what altitude can be expected and when/where to expect it.

EXAMPLE-
“Cleared to Johnston Airport, Scott One departure, Jonez transition, Q One Forty-five, Climb Via SID except maintain flight level one eight zero, expect flight level three five zero one zero minutes after departure.”

Looks like pretty clear guidance for the controllers, though I admit I don't know how long the quoted items have been around in the .65.

- Martin

Been in the .65 for at least 30 years I can tell you that. It’s not mandatory though because it’s phraseology listed as an EXAMPLE. That means suggested words or phrases. Now if the paragraph (b) proceeding that specified an actual time limit, that would be mandatory.

 

[AvNavCom]

Well it’s the phraseology example in the .65 forever so most facilities adopted it as standard. I think it was actually listed in our SOP just so everyone was on the same page.

Just makes you wonder if the guy writing the example had randomly chosen five minutes instead of ten, that's what we would all be doing too. Amazing how little things like that can create such a widespread effect.

 

[M20K]

I'm glad to see that some of the later posts had an answer. But also really surprised at some of the early post saying something along the lines of just turn or at 400 ft you're fine.

I hope those guys read the later posts about ODPs and no, you can't "just turn" if you want to stay alive. Sure, if you're in the flatlands, no problem... except for maybe that big radio tower off to the left. If you're in the mountains, all bets are off on which way you can turn. Or maybe even what runway to use regardless of the winds.

So if you live in the flatlands, or still just think you can turn at will, I hope you start getting in the habit to become familiar with the terrain and look to see if there's an ODP. You may not need it for most of your flying, but someday you'll be at an airport and start to read and have an Ah Ha moment when you realize there's a big rock between you and your on course turn. And no radar to save you since you are down below the mountain tops.

And a quick note on how to use an ODP... ATC will not assign it, but they like to know if you're going to fly one. Just tell them in the comments or tell them on the phone you're flying the ODP. (Be sure to name the ODP if there is more than one for that Airport.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just makes you wonder if the guy writing the example had randomly chosen five minutes instead of ten, that's what we would all be doing too. Amazing how little things like that can create such a widespread effect.

I’ve heard “5 minutes” so some do buck the trend.

 

[RussR]

I’ve heard “5 minutes” so some do buck the trend.

I have as well. Not often, but I'm pretty sure every time I've heard it has been at the same airport. Of course, I don't remember which airport that was!

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

I remember a couple of things departing uncontrolled airports under IFR. "Can you maintain obstacle clearance until entering controlled airspace?" And, "Upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading xxx."

 

[Larry in TN]

Just makes you wonder if the guy writing the example had randomly chosen five minutes instead of ten, that's what we would all be doing too. Amazing how little things like that can create such a widespread effect.

10 is common but at some airports, usually with nearby high terrain, use less. I've heard 5 and 2 with some regularity. At least one city, SEA I think, uses a distance instead of a time. (Maybe it's SLC?)

 

[Velocity173]

I remember a couple of things departing uncontrolled airports under IFR. "Can you maintain obstacle clearance until entering controlled airspace?" And, "Upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading xxx."

Well the first one they’re actually asking if you can maintain your own terrain / obstruction clearance until reaching a certain altitude (MIA, MVA, MEA). At my facility class E started at either 700 or 1,200 but our MVA was 1,500. Example airborne call looking to pick up an IFR - “Cessna 345 are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance until reaching 1,500 ft?” If in the affirmative then “Cessna 345 cleared to…”

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Well the first one they’re actually asking if you can maintain your own terrain / obstruction clearance until reaching a certain altitude (MIA, MVA, MEA). At my facility class E started at either 700 or 1,200 but our MVA was 1,500. Example airborne call looking to pick up an IFR - “Cessna 345 are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance until reaching 1,500 ft?” If in the affirmative then “Cessna 345 cleared to…”

Right. I was at Three Rivers (KHAI) just south of Kalamazoo and needed a local IFR clearance to get home to KAZO. It's all flat country there, so no problem. The other one, "upon entering controlled airspace..." was a takeoff in low IFR from OC5, Canadian Lakes, a grass strip. Again, no obstacles, just lousy weather.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I remember a couple of things departing uncontrolled airports under IFR. "Can you maintain obstacle clearance until entering controlled airspace?" And, "Upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading xxx."

The first one is standard for when you pick up your clearance in the air and it’s actually, “until reaching [altitude]”, typically their MVA. A “yes” gets “cleared to…”; a “no” gets “say intentions.” But controllers have been known to ask it on the ground.

The second is standard for clearances given on the ground at Class G surface airports. Main reason? Controllers have no authority to tell you what to do in uncontrolled airspace.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'm glad to see that some of the later posts had an answer. But also really surprised at some of the early post saying something along the lines of just turn or at 400 ft you're fine.

I hope those guys read the later posts about ODPs and no, you can't "just turn" if you want to stay alive. Sure, if you're in the flatlands, no problem... except for maybe that big radio tower off to the left. If you're in the mountains, all bets are off on which way you can turn. Or maybe even what runway to use regardless of the winds.

So if you live in the flatlands, or still just think you can turn at will, I hope you start getting in the habit to become familiar with the terrain and look to see if there's an ODP. You may not need it for most of your flying, but someday you'll be at an airport and start to read and have an Ah Ha moment when you realize there's a big rock between you and your on course turn. And no radar to save you since you are down below the mountain tops.

And a quick note on how to use an ODP... ATC will not assign it, but they like to know if you're going to fly one. Just tell them in the comments or tell them on the phone you're flying the ODP. (Be sure to name the ODP if there is more than one for that Airport.)

Or maybe they read the earlier posts more closely than you did.

 

[Velocity173]

I'm glad to see that some of the later posts had an answer. But also really surprised at some of the early post saying something along the lines of just turn or at 400 ft you're fine.

I hope those guys read the later posts about ODPs and no, you can't "just turn" if you want to stay alive. Sure, if you're in the flatlands, no problem... except for maybe that big radio tower off to the left. If you're in the mountains, all bets are off on which way you can turn. Or maybe even what runway to use regardless of the winds.

So if you live in the flatlands, or still just think you can turn at will, I hope you start getting in the habit to become familiar with the terrain and look to see if there's an ODP. You may not need it for most of your flying, but someday you'll be at an airport and start to read and have an Ah Ha moment when you realize there's a big rock between you and your on course turn. And no radar to save you since you are down below the mountain tops.

And a quick note on how to use an ODP... ATC will not assign it, but they like to know if you're going to fly one. Just tell them in the comments or tell them on the phone you're flying the ODP. (Be sure to name the ODP if there is more than one for that Airport.)

I wouldn’t say ATC will not assign an ODP. They could assign one as needed for traffic separation.

 

[tsts4]

I wouldn’t say ATC will not assign an ODP. They could assign one as needed for traffic separation.

Flying out of Gatlinburg, TN (which sits in a valley of the Smokey Mountains) a couple years ago I was assigned the ODP on departure. I don't recall the verbiage, but they definitely assigned it to me vs me telling them I was going fly in order to get on course.

 

[Palmpilot]

From the AIM chapter on Pilot/Controller Roles and Responsibilities:

5−5−14. Instrument Departures

a. Pilot.​

1. Prior to departure considers the type of terrain and other obstructions on or in the vicinity of the departure airport.​

​

2. Determines if obstruction avoidance can be maintained visually or that the departure procedure should be followed.​

​

3. Determines whether an obstacle departure procedure (ODP) and/or DP is available for obstruction avoidance. One option may be a Visual Climb Over Airport (VCOA). Pilots must advise ATC as early as possible of the intent to fly the VCOA prior to departure.​

​

4. At airports where IAPs have not been published, hence no published departure procedure, determines what action will be necessary and takes such action that will assure a safe departure.​

[Emphasis added]

 

[midlifeflyer]

I wouldn’t say ATC will not assign an ODP. They could assign one as needed for traffic separation.

And they do. The HICKORY FOUR out of HKY in North Carolina "graduated" to a charted procedure, but it's still listed as an obstacle one. It's been assigned for years because it's really about CLT traffic. Flying out of Grosse Isle, Michigan(ONZ), I've been assigned the ODP. Looking at the Sectional tells us it's about that tower less than 2 miles away, but it's probably assigned because DTW wants to be able to "see" you before you turn toward the center of the Bravo.

 

[mandm]

This is where your judgment will be critical. On a recent IFR flight in low vis conditions at a non towered airport, I called for an IFR clearance, was given the altitudes and entire route to my destination, so everything was basically planned should there be a comms failure. Also, it was immediately IMC on departure. ATC asked which runway I would depart and I opted to depart with a slight tailwind to avoid an immediate climbing turn in IMC. The runway was long enough although I did have a noticeable decrease in performance, much more than I thought I would and now a personal limitation was created.

I do think that when you are flying in IMC that you are given more options from ATC (should you request them) and you really need to take control of the situation (aviate navigate communicate) to fly the airplane safely. You don’t want to get behind the airplane while in IMC.