Dealing with the marshalers

BrianR

BrianR

Pre-takeoff checklist
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BrianR
So I flew into a class D field the other day to pick up a friend from the FBO. When we went out to the plane to depart, we were accompanied by two line guys (guess one was bored). After pulling the chocks, one guy proceeded to the front of the plane and stood there with his arms raised, obviously to marshal us out of parking (which was completely unnecessary, but must be FBO policy).

However, it took me a while to brief the passenger, secure the cabin, start up, set up the GPS and radios, call for clearance, etc...probably on the order of 10 minutes. During that time, the poor guy just stood there -- finally lowering his arms until we were ready to taxi! I got the distinct impression he expected me to just start up and taxi out of the parking area as soon as we closed up the plane.

I typically fly out of an FBO based at a class C airport, where the linemen just pull the plane out of the hangar and disappear. The whole marshaling thing is something I have very little experience with.

Given that as far as I can tell on the (class D field) airport diagram, there are no designated non-movement areas, my understanding is that I shouldn't be moving the plane from parking at all without receiving taxi clearance.

So what's the usual protocol in this situation? Let the dude (or dudette) stand there forever twiddling his/her thumbs until I am all set up and ready to go? Or immediately call for taxi clearance, taxi out of the parking area so the marshaler can go away, then stop and set up everything prior to or at the time of runup? Something else?
 
If I thought it was going to take an abnormal amount of time to get rolling I'd tell the guy before-hand that it could be awhile. If I wasn't able to do that I'd let the guy stand there.
 
If he's standing there and I have a lengthy routine to go through, I'll indicate by pointing to my wrist and flashing fingers for minutes.
 
The time I would make him wait would be directly proportional to the landing/facility fee I just paid the FBO.
 
AirDC said:
The time I would make him wait would be directly proportional to the landing/facility fee I just paid the FBO.
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You need to work on your shmoozing and begging technique dude lol, I never pay those, they're always negotiable as are fuel prices; especially if you buy quantity.
 
The guys are probably going to get yelled at if they don't do it, so I try to be courteous. Let them know if you'll be a while, then wave a thank-you as you leave.
 
AirDC said:
The time I would make him wait would be directly proportional to the landing/facility fee I just paid the FBO.
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Yeah, good point. The FBO (MillionAir - wonder how they got that name) charges me $25, which I've not been able to negotiate away either time I've been there. And since my club plane is based only 26 nm away, I have no need or room for fuel. And their cookies aren't even very good. So maybe I won't feel so guilty about making the guy stand there.

Unfortunately, they're the only game in town at that airport, and there's no GA transient ramp, so you're stuck. I just don't go there any oftener than I have to.
 
If they've worked doing marshaling for any length of time they know that there are going to be times when an airplane will take a while to be ready to go. Don't worry about it. FYI for people who don't know, you signal you are ready by flashing the taxi/landing light.
 
AirDC said:
The time I would make him wait would be directly proportional to the landing/facility fee I just paid the FBO.
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You're taking it out on the wrong people. Your issue is with the FBO's management, not the folks they hire and pay minimum wage to help you out. ;)
 
I actually kinda like marshallers. I do the same thing Henning does if its going to be awhile - point at my wrist and indicate how many minutes. Usually they will walk off.
 
Henning said:
You need to work on your shmoozing and begging technique dude lol, I never pay those, they're always negotiable as are fuel prices; especially if you buy quantity.
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Good call there. I've gotten the fuel purchase waived by letting them know we purchased fuel during the previous visit...and we were near gross weight because of the passengers we picked up. My gf at the time didn't like me flirting to get landing and handling fees waived!

I have never tried to get a discount on fuel prices if I bought bulk....
 
Great thread. This reminds me of my cross country, where I parked my 150 at an FBO for 4 days while on vacation.

When I was picking up the plane on the fourth day, the ramp guy saw me open the doors (field was clearing, but still MVFR, so I was doing a pre-flight before sitting around and waiting for the morning fog to go away)....

He drove his golf cart over to me and asked if I was leaving. I said "no" not yet. He asked if I would be ok to taxi myself out of that spot (very close to a building). I told him I didn't understand the question. He said some pilots WANT to be marshalled out of the parking area for fear of hitting other planes or buildings. I laughed and told him where I fly I park my own plane, by myself, fill up my own gas, by myself, and nobody even touches my aircraft. I said "I'm cool, thanks" and could tell he was glad he would not have to return to marshall me out.
 
DavidWhite said:
I actually kinda like marshallers.
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I dont like anybody whose qualifications I know nothing about to wander around my plane while the engine is either running or about to be started up.

One of those guys scared me to death maybe two years ago. I walked out to the plane without a marshaller, finished my preflight and pulled the forward chock. After I started the engine, I see from the corner of my eye someone darting around the wing heading for the front of the plane, pulled the mixture and cut the ignition at the same time. I asked the guy what #_* ^@@_ he is doing, he thought I still had the plane chocked and wanted to 'help' :eek: .

Add to that the line-man who walked into the prop of a PC-12 while placing the nosewheel chock, I am very weary of anyone around the plane. I have a parking brake, there is no emergency to either put chocks in front of my nosewheel or removing them.
 
Keep in mind that some FBOs want to marshal you even if you are a small airplane, especially if their ramp is congested and busy. I don't know if that was the case with the OP.
 
weilke said:
I dont like anybody whose qualifications I know nothing about to wander around my plane while the engine is either running or about to be started up.

One of those guys scared me to death maybe two years ago. I walked out to the plane without a marshaller, finished my preflight and pulled the forward chock. After I started the engine, I see from the corner of my eye someone darting around the wing heading for the front of the plane, pulled the mixture and cut the ignition at the same time. I asked the guy what #_* ^@@_ he is doing, he thought I still had the plane chocked and wanted to 'help' :eek: .

Add to that the line-man who walked into the prop of a PC-12 while placing the nosewheel chock, I am very weary of anyone around the plane. I have a parking brake, there is no emergency to either put chocks in front of my nosewheel or removing them.
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Gotta agree with you on not really liking people around the aircraft when it's noisy. Mixture pulled then keys on the glare shield in short order. (I know, real airplanes don't have keys). That's okay, I want folks to know I've done my best to ensure cold mags and no starter engagement.
 
A couple of times I've had a couple of marshallers, after I've shut down, ask "Let me see the keys!" before they approach.
 
I also usually indicate time or tell them before hand. Nice to do, but it caught me off guard my first time as well.
 
Matthew said:
A couple of times I've had a couple of marshallers, after I've shut down, ask "Let me see the keys!" before they approach.
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They don't have to do that with me. Key off, it's on the dash. Big orange keyring too.
 
The only times I've been marshaled have been when I was wanted to park in a specific area, or if I was taxing around more expensive aircraft and there were no center lines to follow.
 
weilke said:
I dont like anybody whose qualifications I know nothing about to wander around my plane while the engine is either running or about to be started up.
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Are you kidding? If you prop strike a marshaller the FBO buys you a prop and engine and compensates you for emotional trauma lol. Hell, any of those dudes can walk into my props any time they want, I need the money.:yesnod:
 
Matthew said:
A couple of times I've had a couple of marshallers, after I've shut down, ask "Let me see the keys!" before they approach.
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I'd tell them they were idiots and not to be near my plane unsupervised.
 
Henning said:
I'd tell them they were idiots and not to be near my plane unsupervised.
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The first thing they say as the approach my plane is to ask if I need any fuel. They are asking to "see the keys" as in to visually verify they have been removed from the mag switch, not "see the keys" as in "hand them over".
 
Matthew said:
The first thing they say as the approach my plane is to ask if I need any fuel. They are asking to "see the keys" as in to visually verify they have been removed from the mag switch, not "see the keys" as in "hand them over".
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Plenty of airplanes without keys.
 
The Cessnas and Warriors I fly have keys. I'm not familiar with any others.
 
Matthew said:
The first thing they say as the approach my plane is to ask if I need any fuel. They are asking to "see the keys" as in to visually verify they have been removed from the mag switch, not "see the keys" as in "hand them over".
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It means he's an inexperienced blow hard who is typically a hazard to my equipment. If he doesn't know enough about my plane to know it doesn't have a key, it has a gang bar that covers 4 mag switches, he does not know enough to be near my plane unsupervised.
 
Matthew said:
The Cessnas and Warriors I fly have keys. I'm not familiar with any others.
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Not sure about Hennings 310, but the early model I flew had a starter button. Along with alot of other straight tail Cessnas.
 
One of the 150s I fly has a starter button, but still has a key switch on the mags.
 
Matthew said:
The Cessnas and Warriors I fly have keys. I'm not familiar with any others.
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'65 Twin Comanche has four switches for the mags and a toggle switch for the starters. No key whatsoever.

Given the troubles and ADs on later models with key switches, I think that that is a pretty good design.
 
Matthew said:
The Cessnas and Warriors I fly have keys. I'm not familiar with any others.
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Exactly, so you wouldn't be qualified to make that demand, plus it means your a rude punk. If you're a line boy, check your boss on this. If I was your boss, and I've been in customer service industry since 1976, I would tell you the only words to use to fulfill this mission would be two posed as a polite question, " Mags cold?" "Show me your keys!" says the same thing to me as "Hey, I don't trust your word or your skills you lying prick idiot", it's downright rude.

You could even use a bit of communication ingenuity, look me in the eye, hold up four fingers palm towards me and sweep them down rotating your wrist, sweeping then dropping your arm. I will recognize this as the motion I use to shut down my switches and I'm gonna look down and give you a thumbs up. Now I'm gonna think you're a sharp kid. If you are friendly when I get out of the plane, you can likely log 5.6 hrs of multi or whatever on my next leg if you can find your way home. I even took one kid for 3 days since I was coming back through, all he had to pay was his room and board.

It pays to be polite and on the ball.
 
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Henning said:
Exactly, so you wouldn't be qualified to make that demand, plus it means your a rude punk. If you're a line boy, check your boss on this. If I was your boss, and I've been in customer service industry since 1976, I would tell you the only words to use to fulfill this mission would be two posed as a polite question, " Mags cold?" "Show me your keys!" says the same thing to me as "Hey, I don't trust your word or your skills you lying prick idiot", it's downright rude.

You could even use a bit of communication ingenuity, look me in the eye, hold up four fingers palm towards me and sweep them down rotating your wrist, sweeping then dropping your arm. I will recognize this as the motion I use to shut down my switches and I'm gonna look down and give you a thumbs up. Now I'm gonna think you're a sharp kid. If you are friendly when I get out of the plane, you can likely log 5.6 hrs of multi or whatever on my next leg if you can find your way home. I even took one kid for 3 days since I was coming back through, all he had to pay was his room and board.

It pays to be polite and on the ball.
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I know some on here may find it hard to believe you are polite. Oh, wait, you were talking about the line boy . . . nevermind!!!

:)
 
Henning said:
Exactly, so you wouldn't be qualified to make that demand, plus it means your a rude punk. If you're a line boy, check your boss on this. If I was your boss, and I've been in customer service industry since 1976, I would tell you the only words to use to fulfill this mission would be two posed as a polite question, " Mags cold?" "Show me your keys!" says the same thing to me as "Hey, I don't trust your word or your skills you lying prick idiot", it's downright rude.
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I guess I didn't see it as rude, or a question of my qualifications. I just figured it was the line guy wanting to verify the keys were out. He wasn't a kid, so maybe he's seen something in the past that made him skittish, maybe. I'm pretty sure that other marshallers at the same FBO have wanted to see the keys, too, so maybe it's an FBO thing.

But I see your point - demanding to see the keys is not the same as asking for verification the mags are cold.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I know some on here may find it hard to believe you are polite. Oh, wait, you were talking about the line boy . . . nevermind!!!

:)
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I am very polite. In person people don't take offense to what I say, and I'm straight forward in person too lol. It's mostly because I'm smiling a genuine smile and they know I'm not being judgmental.
 
Million Air was founded Richard Rogers (Mary Kay CEO) and others ~30 years ago. They came up with the name during a brain-storming session. They have since sold the franchising rights and retain only the KADS operation.

Line guys are stationed in front of the planes to provide a measure of control traffic and safe operations on the ramp. When you flash the landing light that you are ready to taxi, pay careful attention to him. If he's holding up a "stop" or "brakes set" hand signal, it might mean that another airplane that you can't see is already moving and that you should hold your position. It's not unusual for a pilot to forget to hold the brakes during engine start, so most of them have some unanticipated excitement on a regular basis.

Other than singles and a few light twins, airplanes don't have keys other for the doors and bag compartments.

Most pro pilots do the prelimary stuff and have the airplane ready to go (checklists complete down to engine start, GPS programmed, etc.) when the passengers are boarded. As a result, the line guys stand there for a much shorter time than for the PPL's who start from scratch. PPL's could save themselves a lot of time (and sweat) by emulating the pros.
 
Henning said:
I am very polite, in person people don't take offense to what I say, and I'm straight forward in person to lol. It's mostly because I'm smiling a genuine smile.
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Dude I know . . . ! I remember how nice you were.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Dude I know . . . ! I remember how nice you were.
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When you can make someone laugh over their mistakes, it makes it much easier to accept and correct.;) We live, learn and laugh, and we all f-up. If we live, we should laugh and learn.
 
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9 times out of 10 the line guy at a small county airport has never had any training from an FBO. If the guy is a pilot he might have enough recall of AIM 4-XX to remember the AIM suggestedd hand signs.

Usually, during the shutdown unti just after the props stop, I make the attached signal, to acknowedge the shutdown request.

It generally works. and it's above the glareshield so the line guy can actually see it.

See attachment.
 

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If they demonstrate obvious deficiencies in knowledge of their job, it they are polite I'll usually educate them. No sense being abusive about it but no sense in letting a bad manager get in the way of his doing his job well and safely. It's part of your duty to aviation as a pilot. If they are rude or otherwise demonstrate basic idiocy, I just smile and nod, exchange a pleasantry and walk on by; not worth my time.
 
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