Dealing with the marshalers

[weilke]

Reference ?

( not arguing, just curious)

if there is an argument to be made, then my argument would be at an uncontrolled field you state your intention - I think positioning is pretty clear about my intentions. :wink2:

I quoted the standard phraseology from the AIM.

I guess there is no law that prohibits you saying 'position', but in ICAO compliant usage, ATC has eliminated that word from their vocabulary when it comes to runway operations. 'position and hold' has has been replaced with 'line up and wait' to reduce interpretation errors.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Funny how I was cleared to land the other day: wasn't told there was one lined up and waiting (g).

Dave

 

[TMetzinger]

Finally a helpful explanation of why we give tail numbers... (I've wondered this because it seems like saying the color and type would be good enough). This is a good answer.

So Jesse, I typically just say the tail number, should I be saying "Skyhawk" and then the tail number? And that way you'll know what type of aircraft I'm flying?

Chiming in, what you want to communicate is an idea of the type of aircraft you are, and enough of your tail number to make you unique.

If I hear:
Skyhawk 32B
Cessna 6BA
Seminole 2PW
Trinidad 3GT

Then I know I have four different airplanes, and can reasonably guess that there are two high-wings, a twin, and a fast low-wing retract.

If all I hear are tail numbers, I don't know what to look for. If all I get is "white cessna" and "red piper", I can't tell if the two voices I hear for "white cessna" are you and your instructor in the same airplane or two different airplanes.

Combining the type of airplane with a bit of the tail number conveys the maximum amount of data in the minimum amount of bandwidth.

 

[jaybee]

I quoted the standard phraseology from the AIM.

I guess there is no law that prohibits you saying 'position', but in ICAO compliant usage, ATC has eliminated that word from their vocabulary when it comes to runway operations. 'position and hold' has has been replaced with 'line up and wait' to reduce interpretation errors.

I wasn't talking about communicating with ATC I was talking about stating intentions at an uncontrolled field

I wouldn't be making position reports unless asked by ATC.

Anyhow... six of one half dozen of another in my book. As other people stated if I roll on the airstrip while someone is still doing a touch and go or rolling to the next taxiway, at the very least positioning lets them know that I'm not going to run them over or conflict with them. At the field I fly at it might urge someone to appropriately join the 45 on the downwind instead of straight in from 2 miles where I can't see them and have them land on top of me while I triple check my passenger's safety belts, confirm magnetic heading on compass, etc, etc, "last chance to bail out" routine. I don't know, that's how the old fogey I flew with trained me, final chance to pull my head out of my butt and notice if something is wrong before I take off (even if run-up checklist was accomplished, stuff still happens). YMMV

While most things are pretty good in the AIM definetly don't agree with "departing to the east" since you should only depart per the AIM straight out or on the 45 then you should state straight out or 45 IMHO. No accidents or incidents yet on my part :fingers crossed:

So since position is not in the PC/G and also the AIM also states to say whatever you need to say to make your intentions known (4-2-1(b)) "Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across" I think I'll stick with it for now.

 

[weilke]

I wasn't talking about communicating with ATC I was talking about stating intentions at an uncontrolled field

The reason I mentioned ATC is that they eliminated 'position' when it comes to runway operations for good reason. A position is something specific geographic as in 'how the aircraft is located relative to a navigational feature' (and a 'hold' is something you do in the air, not on the runway)

At the field I fly at it might urge someone to appropriately join the 45 on the downwind instead of straight in from 2 miles where I can't see them and have them land on top of me while I triple check my passenger's safety belts, confirm magnetic heading on compass, etc, etc,

So you just plant yourself on the end of the runway to run through your checklists while others are trying to land ? Not terribly polite imnho, also you deprive yourself of the view of final when you 'position' yourself. When you are ready-ready, you enter the runway and take off, all the checks you mentioned except for confirming runway alignment should be finished before you make your call and nudge the throttle forward.

While most things are pretty good in the AIM definetly don't agree with "departing to the east" since you should only depart per the AIM straight out or on the 45 then you should state straight out or 45

If I say 'departing to the east', the guy approaching from the east knows instantly that I am heading heading his way. If you talk about 'something 45' he needs to start doing geometry in his head. Why?

 

[jaybee]

The reason I mentioned ATC is that they eliminated 'position' when it comes to runway operations for good reason. A position is something specific geographic as in 'how the aircraft is located relative to a navigational feature' (and a 'hold' is something you do in the air, not on the runway)

So the aircraft parked on the end of a runway is not a specific geographic position in relation to a navaid? You seem to miss important details : 1 uncontrolled 2 - never said position and hold only position.



So you just plant yourself on the end of the runway to run through your checklists while others are trying to land ? Not terribly polite imnho, also you deprive yourself of the view of final when you 'position' yourself. When you are ready-ready, you enter the runway and take off, all the checks you mentioned except for confirming runway alignment should be finished before you make your call and nudge the throttle forward.

Don't put words in my mouth. I do not run through my checklist while parked on the runway. I do one last look over everything before heading out. TRIPLE checked like I already said, 15 secs tops.


If I say 'departing to the east', the guy approaching from the east knows instantly that I am heading heading his way. If you talk about 'something 45' he needs to start doing geometry in his head. Why?

Because as I've already said one time already... the AIM only recomends departing a runway in two fashions - straight out and 45. Defining which recommendation you are using is prudent.

In other words a straight out departure would be to the east and a left 45 departure would be to the north east. If I'm approaching for a left 45 approach to downwind then a left 45 departure would definitely be more of a factor. Simply departing to the east makes no distinction of how much of a factor that traffic may be.

If that don't make sense to you then don't do it that way, its that simple. If I say departing on the left 45 zero nine and you have trouble figuring out where I'm going you might want to have some remedial training done with your local CFI