Dealing with the marshalers

kimberlyanne546 said:
Yes, because we all know the reason for learning geometry is to improve your pool (billiards) game.
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IIRC that was trig, but I consider that a subset of geometry so, yeah. Helps well in navigation as well. I never could get calculus until one charter with a bunch of astrophysics from JPL where a realy sharp dude explained it to me using beer bottle caps and planetary interactions to understand the relationships.:rofl: he was funny as hell.
 
Henning said:
IIRC that was trig, but I consider that a subset of geometry so, yeah. Helps well in navigation as well. I never could get calculus until one charter with a bunch of astrophysics from JPL where a realy sharp dude explained it to me using beer bottle caps and planetary interactions to understand the relationships.:rofl: he was funny as hell.
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Well I never took trig. In fact, I don't even have a degree. So I may be the dumbest one on here then.
 
weilke said:
Do they have a beacon in addition to strobes ?
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No, but if you look at the reg regarding aircraft lights at night(91.209(b), the pilot can leave them off when he deems that because of "operating conditions", it would be in the interest of safety to leave them on. I would call preserving a fellow pilots night vision to be safety related.
 
GCA319 said:
No, but if you look at the reg regarding aircraft lights at night(91.209(b), the pilot can leave them off when he deems that because of "operating conditions", it would be in the interest of safety to leave them on. I would call preserving a fellow pilots night vision to be safety related.
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(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.

The chief counsel has commented on this in the letter to Murphy last year:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2011/Murphy.pdf

She stated that for an aircraft with beacon and strobes, both have to be on if one is on, unless the PIC determines that they dont........

(really a non-answer, can't believe Ms Mc Pherson actually draws a salary for the non-work she does).

Still leaves me scratching my head what to do with a 'strobes only' plane.

I guess I can cruise around the non-movement area with the dim 5W positiion lights only. Now it comes down to weighing the risk of maybe temporarily reducing somebody elses night vision vs. the risk of permanently chopping someone who rides his golf cart on the ramp to little pieces.
 
You'd think there might be some pilots at FAA who she should ask for opinions as to the conventions and norms. Then if the law was inappropriate to those, she could actually fix them. :mad2: :dunno:
 
weilke said:

(b) Operate an aircraft that is equipped with an anticollision light system, unless it has lighted anticollision lights. However, the anticollision lights need not be lighted when the pilot-in-command determines that, because of operating conditions, it would be in the interest of safety to turn the lights off.

The chief counsel has commented on this in the letter to Murphy last year:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2011/Murphy.pdf

She stated that for an aircraft with beacon and strobes, both have to be on if one is on, unless the PIC determines that they dont........

(really a non-answer, can't believe Ms Mc Pherson actually draws a salary for the non-work she does).

Still leaves me scratching my head what to do with a 'strobes only' plane.

I guess I can cruise around the non-movement area with the dim 5W positiion lights only. Now it comes down to weighing the risk of maybe temporarily reducing somebody elses night vision vs. the risk of permanently chopping someone who rides his golf cart on the ramp to little pieces.
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My take is the FAA wants them on, but they don't care enough to challenge a pilot over it and hand out citations or letters. It's "turn them on unless you don't want to".

Would you rather another rule you could be violated with?
 
Captain said:
My take is the FAA wants them on, but they don't care enough to challenge a pilot over it and hand out citations or letters. It's "turn them on unless you don't want to".

Would you rather another rule you could be violated with?
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If I have strobes, I don't turn them on until I take the runway for departure.
 
GCA319 said:
If I have strobes, I don't turn them on until I take the runway for departure.
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So you're one of those guys that takes the runway! What are the rest of us supposed to use?

:D
 
Meh, I usually hold my fingers up like I'm jingling keys before I push a single that is occupied. Beats yelling and most folks get it.

Twins IDGAF as I'm not in the prop arc anyway.
 
Henning said:
How long have you been waiting to use that?:rolleyes:
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Hey, I'm reviewing joint-interest billing, haven't done anything more boring in the past 20 or 30 years. Give me a break!
 
Skylane81E said:
Meh, I usually hold my fingers up like I'm jingling keys before I push a single that is occupied. Beats yelling and most folks get it.

Twins IDGAF as I'm not in the prop arc anyway.
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There you go, ask the question in a polite and competent manner, and you get a polite and competent response. That's why I'm a Hannibal Lecter fan, he chooses to eat the rude.
 
Henning said:
There you go, ask the question in a polite and competent manner, and you get a polite and competent response. That's why I'm a Hannibal Lecter fan, he chooses to eat the rude.
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You are what you eat.:yikes:
 
Clark1961 said:
Hey, I'm reviewing joint-interest billing, haven't done anything more boring in the past 20 or 30 years. Give me a break!
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Kit%20Kat%20logo.jpg


A nice BIG beak
 
Thanks, now I need a new monitor after attempting to "tear here"
 
Clark1961 said:
So you're one of those guys that takes the runway! What are the rest of us supposed to use?

:D
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NO Runway for you!

I don't say it on the radio. I usually call "Departing rwy_direction bound", but it doesn't bother me when people do...It's that whole "taking the active" thing at uncontrolled airports that bothers me.
 
GCA319 said:
It's that whole "taking the active" thing at uncontrolled airports that bothers me.
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As a pilot in training at an uncontrolled airport can you elaborate on that sentence? Are you saying it's frustrating when people just say "Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 Taking the active for departure"? I agree that saying that is poor judgement for everyone else listening.
 
numl0ck said:
As a pilot in training at an uncontrolled airport can you elaborate on that sentence? Are you saying it's frustrating when people just say "Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 Taking the active for departure"? I agree that saying that is poor judgement for everyone else listening.
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It doesn't discriminate as to which direction. At an uncontrolled airport the pilot decides which is active so you could be going a minimum of 2 directions. "Podunk traffic, red twin Cessna taking 36 for a northwest departure, Podunk."
 
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numl0ck said:
As a pilot in training at an uncontrolled airport can you elaborate on that sentence? Are you saying it's frustrating when people just say "Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 Taking the active for departure"? I agree that saying that is poor judgement for everyone else listening.
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I always went with -
"Podunk traffic, cessna 1234 POSITIONING on runway 36 for straight out departure Podunk"
 
Everskyward said:
Keep in mind that some FBOs want to marshal you even if you are a small airplane, especially if their ramp is congested and busy. I don't know if that was the case with the OP.
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Thanks for the tip! I'm getting a lot more help in this plane and never thought to flash the light. I sometimes do the on the way in to let the ground handler know I see him/her. Let me know when you're here again. The KA is flying again.

I'll use the wrist and five also. It sometimes takes me quite awhile to get pacs settled, get the clearance, plan the departure and taxi before leaving the ramp. Some of these places are really busy and I really need a ground guide. I also can't keep up with all ground activity when doing all the departure stuff. I might not see someone walking up from the side or rear and have had it happen.

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Thanks for the tip! I'm getting a lot more help in this plane and never thought to flash the light. I sometimes do the on the way in to let the ground handler know I see him/her. Let me know when you're here again. The KA is flying again.
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I didn't know about the light either until I started flying bigger airplanes which got marshaled more often. The other thing about the taxi light is that when we taxi in at night I turn it off once we are on a well-lit ramp, and especially before we turn to face the marshaller, in order not to blind them.

We seem to be making quite a few trips down there although we don't usually stay overnight. The next overnight is not going to be me, unfortunately. I'll let you know, though.
 
numl0ck said:
As a pilot in training at an uncontrolled airport can you elaborate on that sentence? Are you saying it's frustrating when people just say "Podunk traffic Cessna 1234 Taking the active for departure"? I agree that saying that is poor judgement for everyone else listening.
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'Taking the active' is lazy and defeats the system of self-announced traffic calls.
 
jaybee said:
I always went with -
"Podunk traffic, cessna 1234 POSITIONING on runway 36 for straight out departure Podunk"
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No need to introduce anything beyond the recommended phraseology:

AIM Chapter 4

FREDERICK TRAFFIC CESSNA EIGHT ZERO ONE TANGO FOXTROT DEPARTING RUNWAY ONE NINER. “REMAINING IN THE PATTERN” OR “DEPARTING THE PATTERN TO THE ” FREDERICK.

On a busy frequency shared between many airports, you should even shorten that verbiage to:

FREDERICK TRAFFIC CESSNA ONE TANGO FOXTROT DEPARTING RUNWAY ONE NINER. “CLOSED TRAFFIC” OR “DEPARTING EASTBOUND” FREDERICK.

Well, Frederick is getting a Tower next month anyway, but the idea is the same.

If you announce that you are departing runway X, it means you will be 'entering onto' 'positioning' or 'taking' that runway.
 
Thanks guys, just wanted to confirm. Next week we'll head over to a Class Delta for the first time, should be fun. :)
 
weilke said:
No need to introduce anything beyond the recommended phraseology:

AIM Chapter 4

FREDERICK TRAFFIC CESSNA EIGHT ZERO ONE TANGO FOXTROT DEPARTING RUNWAY ONE NINER. “REMAINING IN THE PATTERN” OR “DEPARTING THE PATTERN TO THE ” FREDERICK.

On a busy frequency shared between many airports, you should even shorten that verbiage to:

FREDERICK TRAFFIC CESSNA ONE TANGO FOXTROT DEPARTING RUNWAY ONE NINER. “CLOSED TRAFFIC” OR “DEPARTING EASTBOUND” FREDERICK.

Well, Frederick is getting a Tower next month anyway, but the idea is the same.

If you announce that you are departing runway X, it means you will be 'entering onto' 'positioning' or 'taking' that runway.
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Actually, I take some issue with the standard phraseology. The tail number to give is ok, but not really very useful since nobody without ATC radar can distinguish between traffic using that information. "Red 172" "Blue Arrow" does a much more effective job at giving pilots the information to distinguish with.
 
Henning said:
Actually, I take some issue with the standard phraseology. The tail number to give is ok, but not really very useful since nobody without ATC radar can distinguish between traffic using that information. "Red 172" "Blue Arrow" does a much more effective job at giving pilots the information to distinguish with.
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Or that.
 
The only time I'll say that I'm "positioning" on a runway at an uncontrolled field is to avoid scaring the heck out of the guy that just touched down and is rolling out ahead of me.
 
Henning said:
Actually, I take some issue with the standard phraseology. The tail number to give is ok, but not really very useful since nobody without ATC radar can distinguish between traffic using that information. "Red 172" "Blue Arrow" does a much more effective job at giving pilots the information to distinguish with.
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The tail number is pretty useful because you can store it in your head and keep track of the position of all the incoming airplanes based on their reports (which are often poor). I generally know the likely speed of the type that called up and based on all that I can develop a virtual radar scope in my head. If everyone just said "White 172" (which is most of them) it'd be pretty impossible to build a good picture in your head.
 
pericynthion said:
The only time I'll say that I'm "positioning" on a runway at an uncontrolled field is to avoid scaring the heck out of the guy that just touched down and is rolling out ahead of me.
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Yesterday I had a Cessna announce that he was departing 17 just a few seconds after I had touched down and still had a long taxi to get to the mid field turn off (I landed long, but not that long). I ooched over to one edge of the runway and just kept chugging on my way. :dunno:
 
jesse said:
The tail number is pretty useful because you can store it in your head and keep track of the position of all the incoming airplanes based on their reports (which are often poor). I generally know the likely speed of the type that called up and based on all that I can develop a virtual radar scope in my head. If everyone just said "White 172" (which is most of them) it'd be pretty impossible to build a good picture in your head.
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As I said,I'm not against the tail number, but in close where the info counts the most, it lacks discrimination. As for color, from what I've witnessed from people who feel the same and myself is to use the second most prevalent color after white unless they only have small stripes.
 
weilke said:
If you announce that you are departing runway X, it means you will be 'entering onto' 'positioning' or 'taking' that runway.
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Reference ? :)

( not arguing, just curious)

if there is an argument to be made, then my argument would be at an uncontrolled field you state your intention - I think positioning is pretty clear about my intentions. :wink2:
 
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jesse said:
The tail number is pretty useful because you can store it in your head and keep track of the position of all the incoming airplanes based on their reports (which are often poor). I generally know the likely speed of the type that called up and based on all that I can develop a virtual radar scope in my head. If everyone just said "White 172" (which is most of them) it'd be pretty impossible to build a good picture in your head.
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Finally a helpful explanation of why we give tail numbers... (I've wondered this because it seems like saying the color and type would be good enough). This is a good answer.

So Jesse, I typically just say the tail number, should I be saying "Skyhawk" and then the tail number? And that way you'll know what type of aircraft I'm flying?
 
The main reason we give tail numbers is 2 fold. First off, the FCC requires an identifier from the calling station, second off it keeps it the same as when we deal with ATC.
 
But if you fly to OSH, the FAA controllers who man the towers don't use tail numbers but only color and description. "Blue high-wing" etc.

Tracey said:
Finally a helpful explanation of why we give tail numbers... (I've wondered this because it seems like saying the color and type would be good enough). This is a good answer.

So Jesse, I typically just say the tail number, should I be saying "Skyhawk" and then the tail number? And that way you'll know what type of aircraft I'm flying?
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