Dale Jr. Crash

Kenny Phillips said:
Correct. But for a given Vref, landing at a higher altitude may give you a higher ground speed, and thus more energy to expend.
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The question was, "Wonder what the vref speed was with an almost 5k density altitude?". Vref is indicated airspeed so Vref is the same at any altitude for a given weight.
 
Larry in TN said:
The question was, "Wonder what the vref speed was with an almost 5k density altitude?". Vref is indicated airspeed so Vref is the same at any altitude for a given weight.
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Yes. I was pointing out to the questioner that something does change.
 
NTSB press brief indicates a hard landing and bounce followed by a gear collapse. Will be interesting to see if there was some sort of equipment malfunction or just lapse in piloting.
 
I wonder if on a 70nm (direct) flight in a jet if the arrival happens so soon after departure that the crew just isn't ready for it and things were just happening too fast for them. From the flight track on flightradar24 it looks like they were possibly tracking the Holston Mountain VOR and then dived for the valley leading to 0A9 when the picked it up visually. Just a SWAG.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I wonder if on a 70nm (direct) flight in a jet if the arrival happens so soon after departure that the crew just isn't ready for it and things were just happening too fast for them.
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I highly doubt that. They’d be a pretty incompetent crew if that’s the case.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Like I said, just a SWAG. I'm not a jet pilot. Perhaps your experiences and knowledge of jets leads you to a better conclusion. I'm good with that.
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I don’t have enough data to draw any kind of conclusion.
 
Really sorry to see this but glad no one was hurt. Btw KTRI is actually closer to Bristol speedway than 0A9, and has 8000 ft runway. Maybe there are less nascar fans at 0A9 to deal with, or traffic, not sure why they chose that airport. 5000ft should have been enough normally, except when it isn’t.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Like I said, just a SWAG. I'm not a jet pilot. Perhaps your experiences and knowledge of jets leads you to a better conclusion. I'm good with that.
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If you're not used to doing a 70 mile flight in a jet, things happen quick. If it's common, like at my air carrier, its no big deal.
 
Although, going slow into the dirt while braking is usually better (and in this case successful as far as souls on board still alive) than getting into the air with more energy and still wiping out that fence.
 
Was this a Sovereign or a Latitude?
I believe both are the same types.

I have a couple thousand hours and typed in the C680, but zero in the Latitude.
Not sure how similar they are, but could offer some info if it’s a Sovereign.
 
Elizabethton to the Speedway is about 25 minutes, and Tri Cities AirPort to the Speedway is about 20 minutes. Although Tri Cities has commercial traffic, it's relatively quiet as airports go.
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Kritchlow said:
Not sure how similar they are, but could offer some info if it’s a Sovereign.
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Same wing as the Sovereign as I understand it. Reminds me of what Cessna did with the Excel - took the tail and wing off the V and attached them to a different tube.

I never flew the Sovereign, but we had one on the certificate. Impressive short field performance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d think 5000’ should be pretty trivial with that wing.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
If you're not used to doing a 70 mile flight in a jet, things happen quick. If it's common, like at my air carrier, its no big deal.
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And that was sort of my point. I also know that when I first began flying, I hated doing pattern work first thing after takeoff. I would rather takeoff, do some flying around and then head back to the pattern. Even after not flying for awhile, I do it that way or fly to another airport for my pattern work and do some airwork on the way. My worst landings have been either on immediate pattern work or a very short hop to another field. Now, I realize that the jet guys are much better pilots than I am and have drilled countless times in simulators but I can't help but think they may be subject to the same human foibles as I am.
 
kayoh190 said:
Same wing as the Sovereign as I understand it. Reminds me of what Cessna did with the Excel - took the tail and wing off the V and attached them to a different tube.

I never flew the Sovereign, but we had one on the certificate. Impressive short field performance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d think 5000’ should be pretty trivial with that wing.
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Excel info from the V. Yes on the wing, no on the tail. Totally different tail.
 
Could be parking availability. The ramps at nearby airports get pretty full up on race weekends. Martinsville put in a new bigger ramp to deal with that problem a few years back.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Maybe the fees were less at Elizabethton. :cool:
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They are for piston. Plus while 0A9 is harder to get into and out of, especially in bad weather or at night, it is a nicer place in my view. 0A9 also has frequent helicopter operations, and I believe drivers have been ferried to the track from 0A9 by helicopter. Typically banner towers for the race operate out of 0A9.
 
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SkyDog58 said:
I wonder if on a 70nm (direct) flight in a jet if the arrival happens so soon after departure that the crew just isn't ready for it and things were just happening too fast for them. From the flight track on flightradar24 it looks like they were possibly tracking the Holston Mountain VOR and then dived for the valley leading to 0A9 when the picked it up visually. Just a SWAG.
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Those are the fun flights! I did a whole 4 Day airline schedule and never left the state of North Carolina.

Charlotte to Greensboro or Spartanburg is maybe 10 minutes. If it’s a clear day you can actually see CLT while climbing out of Spartanburg. Asheville is about 15 due to having to swing south to line up.
 
FORANE said:
They are for piston. Plus while 0A9 is harder to get into and out of, especially in bad weather, it is a nicer place in my view. 0A9 also has frequent helicopter operations, and I believe drivers have been ferried to the track from 0A9 by helicopter. Typically banner towers for the race operate out of 0A9.
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It is certainly a very nice airport and the FBO building is great. I forget what I paid for avgas there but it was reasonable and the parking fee whatever it may have been was waived. They also let me use a crew car for a couple of hours to check out the area and grab lunch. I landed on runway 6 and departed on 24 as the winds were calm and that seemed to be what the few other planes including one jet were doing as well. Easy peasy in a 172 even for a hack pilot such as myself.
 
NASCAR driver Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s plane bounced at least twice before "coming down hard" on the right main landing gear resulting in Thursday's fiery crash, officials said Friday.

Earnhardt, his wife and their 1-year-old daughter were on board with two pilots during the accident and they all escaped without serious injuries, officials said.

The Cessna 680A Citation Latitude took off from Statesville, North Carolina, for a 20-minute afternoon flight before it crashed while landing at Elizabethton Municipal Airport in Elizabethton, Tennessee, Ralph Hicks of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said at a news conference on Friday.

The crash was captured on surveillance video, Hicks said, which showed the plane bounce "at least twice before coming down hard on the right main landing gear."

"You can actually see the right main landing gear collapsing on the video," he said.

The plane then continued down the runway, went through a fence, and came to a stop on a highway, Hicks said.

The Earnhardts were able to evacuate before the plane erupted in flames, Hicks said, adding that the fire appeared to start after the crash.

Elizabethton Fire Chief Barry Carrier attributed the blaze to fuel from the aircraft.

The former race car driver was taken to Johnson City Medical Center with cuts and abrasions. He was the only person on board who was hospitalized, according to the sheriff.
 
kayoh190 said:
I never flew the Sovereign, but we had one on the certificate. Impressive short field performance. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’d think 5000’ should be pretty trivial with that wing.
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Someone on another forum says that runway is “do-able” for sure in that airplane but you want it down and planted on the numbers to make it comfortably.

If you’re bouncing at mid-field, you gotta go around. It won’t work.
 
Jet landing data is not predicated on “planting it on the numbers”. It’s predicated on touchdown in the landing zone. So if their landing data for that runway at the given landing weight, wind and temp says they have adequate length, that takes into account of landing in the touchdown zone.

Planting it on the numbers is just bad technique.
 
Landing on 24 one is not likely to plant much of anything with higher wing loading on the numbers due to terrain.

They removed the cockpit section from the road this afternoon.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Jet landing data is not predicated on “planting it on the numbers”. It’s predicated on touchdown in the landing zone. So if their landing data for that runway at the given landing weight, wind and temp says they have adequate length, that takes into account of landing in the touchdown zone.

Planting it on the numbers is just bad technique.
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Completely understood, and well known. Just passing along what other captains said who’ve been in there in various Citation versions.

Y’all want to go off the end and turn the jet into BBQ, do whatever ya like...
 
I just got back from the Bristol race. About once a year we look at Elizabethton (0A9) but decide it is too short. I also just talked to a pilot friend who happened to call Dale Jr Enterprises last month looking for a job. They were rude and said they had all the pilots they need.
 
Kurt Zierhut said:
I just got back from the Bristol race. About once a year we look at Elizabethton (0A9) but decide it is too short. I also just talked to a pilot friend who happened to call Dale Jr Enterprises last month looking for a job. They were rude and said they had all the pilots they need.
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'tudes in professional aviation? That's a shocker.....:D
 
I'll have an eyewitness account in a week or so. One of the people who saw the accident and pulled them from the wreckage is a pilot and the BIL of a co-worker...
 
Kurt Zierhut said:
I just got back from the Bristol race. About once a year we look at Elizabethton (0A9) but decide it is too short. I also just talked to a pilot friend who happened to call Dale Jr Enterprises last month looking for a job. They were rude and said they had all the pilots they need.
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He should try again. They might have some openings...
 
Kurt Zierhut said:
I just got back from the Bristol race. About once a year we look at Elizabethton (0A9) but decide it is too short. I also just talked to a pilot friend who happened to call Dale Jr Enterprises last month looking for a job. They were rude and said they had all the pilots they need.
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Seems like they didn’t have quite enough pilots. :)
 
denverpilot said:
And when burnt to a crisp too, true! LOL.
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I was asked today, for the umpteenth time, what kind of airplane I used to fly. I told her, something similar to the car driver's airplane that recently crashed, only the photos don't exactly show what it looked like whole...
 
There are Saabs that run back and forth all day from JQF on in/out days...These planes carry up to 40 or 50 people...there might be no need to own aircraft...
 
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