Crash in Carrollton GA 2 airplanes down, 3 dead.

A little late to this thread and I'm not interested in speculating or laying blame but I'm honestly surprised this does not happen more often. I fly out of a very busy non-towered airport where, my experience tells me, everyone is great about using the radio. The radio is helpful but, it's simply really hard to locate other aircraft visually during the workload of a landing or the workload of the traffic pattern. It's exceptionally hard to find other planes when, often, even when using the good intentions of radioing in there positions, pilots use absurd position reports like "entering the downwind" and then expect everyone to just magically know where they are entering. Another absurd position report I hear all the time is, " on the 45." Great! Are you 10 miles away on the 45 or about to turn downwind??? The truth is, these phrases we are all taught are absurdly antiquated in today's day and age. People have GPS's on board that tell you to the tenth of a nautical mile, with great accuracy mind you, exactly where you are in position to the airfield! The best calls I ever hear at the non-towered field I fly from is the guy who says, "I'm 3 miles NE of the airport planning to cross mid field over the runway to enter the left down wind for runway 33." Then he says "I'm crossing over mid field now at 1,600." My point here is, let's all help each other out and be as specific as possible when reporting positions.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Yeah, makes me think about all those laws making it illegal to use a cellphone while driving. Oh crap, I just posted this from my car on the 405! :eek::D

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 7 mere seconds from self-immolation
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Yeah, but texting from the 405 is like texting while in the parking lot. Just don't do it while actually moving. ;):cool:
 
We do assume that had they been communicating they could easily have avoided dying. In another instance the MU2 was on a long final,in bound from palm beach. The Cessna 150 was making a normal pattern and had just touched down when the MU2 pilot spotted him on the runway, tried to throttle up, too late, stalled went inverted crashed killing all three on board. Himself, two women, one who owned the plane. They were not communicating. Easton, Maryland, late 70s.
 
Mid size Mixed use airports are harder then pure small GA fields, at least in my area due to the jet traffic that is always on straight in approaches.

Two instances related to radio use, one old, one recent.
- as a kid I flew down to an uncontrolled field in central MA, and announced my intentions on the way in, and around the pattern. About the time I was either turning base or final some old crumegdon came on the freq. and said "we don't make blind announcements at xxxx field". My first thought was I had done something wrong, but later I wondered, so how does anyone know where anyone is??? I was too young to go in the building and ask WTF?
- second time was flying a rental cub, from an airport that used 3 different ones. All of them have external antennas wired in to plug their handheld into. Except on this occasion the guy handed me both a handheld and a flexible handheld antenna. "Assuming" it was as a backup, I proceeded to fly in and out of multiple airports over the course of the next 4 hours with the aircraft antenna connected as usual. A few times I wondered about the lack of response from queries and overall traffic, but once I was over the larger field with ASOS and I could hear it, I felt reassured it was working fine.
....except at day's end when I mentioned how the radio was pretty quiet, and how I had returned the portable antenna as well, the guy said "oh, didn't I tell you the installed antenna isn't working in that one?"

Question, ask, and verify. Because you can hear yourself means nothing.

Pb
 
Dav8or said:
Well there you go. Seven pages of this pointless typing and it just comes down to sheet happens sometimes. Don't want to die in a plane crash? Don't get in a plane. There is nothing that can be done to prevent mid air collisions.
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Yes, that is correct. There is nothing that can be done to prevent all midair collisions. In fact, there were several in the past year at towered fields where everyone was talking to everyone and the tower and still managed to run into each other.
 
Lindberg said:
Yes, that is correct. There is nothing that can be done to prevent all midair collisions. In fact, there were several in the past year at towered fields where everyone was talking to everyone and the tower and still managed to run into each other.
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Because airplanes are flown by people. But even when they are flown by computers instead, there will still be accidents. How often does your computer at home/work crash and need to be rebooted?
 
Hank S said:
Because airplanes are flown by people. But even when they are flown by computers instead, there will still be accidents.
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Has anyone suggested different? My point is that talking on the radio, or looking at a scope is not going to solve the problem.
 
Lindberg said:
Has anyone suggested different? My point is that talking on the radio, or looking at a scope is not going to solve the problem.
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Nope. I was agreeing with you. There will always be things that don't go right.
 
If he had reported a straight in plus reporting he was intending to land there earlier, I feel sure that she, an instructor, would have been tuned in and heard him as she should have been trying to instill proper radio procedure to the student. The fact that he was a former FAA employee and that he was very very safety minded mean nothing. ( the pilot for Colgan who killed 56 people in buffalo was said to be " deeply religious and a nice guy".In this case he was very careless if the report is true, killed himself and two other people. To state that a radio in not important is immature and absurd., important to remember that there was a pilot above them that heard and saw the whole senseless accident.
 
Preliminary report indicates the Beech entered the pattern behind the Diamond on downwind and was not making radio calls. The Diamond would not have been able to see the Beech and without a radio call would have had no idea the Beech was even there.

Initial radar data provided by air traffic control indicated that the pilot of Beech entered an extended downwind from the north, above and directly behind the Diamond, which was also on downwind leg of the traffic pattern. The ground speed of the Beech was about 50 knots greater than the Diamond. The last radar returns, were about 2,000 feet above mean sea level, or about 850 feet above the ground. The locations of the last radar returns were in an area on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern, approaching the base leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160907X21532&key=1
 
tawood said:
Sorry...
I used to be a traffic cop. I remember taking so many cases where a person's only concern was whether or not they were "right" within the law, regardless of the consequences...
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Well that and the fact that he's not right! FAA-H-8083A "When entering the traffic pattern at an airport without an operating control tower, inbound pilots are expected to observe other aircraft already in the pattern and to conform to the traffic pattern in use."

You can do a straight-in approach, but when doing so, you must not impede and aircraft in a standard pattern. Some people take this statement to mean they're on final and have the right-of-way: "As stipulated in 14 CFR part 91, aircraft while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface." However, it also clarifies by saying, "The final approach leg is a descending flightpath starting from the completion of the base-to-final turn and extending to the point of touchdown." A 10-mile straight-in approach doesn't mean you're on final.
 
Nice AOPA article about a couple of incidents. It mentions an Alaska Airlines pilot who was suspended for 20 days. “Aircraft making valid straight-in approaches at uncontrolled airports would, nevertheless, be deemed in violation of FAR 91.89(a) [now 91.126 and 91.127] if they interfered with other aircraft operating in the standard left-hand pattern.”
 
Stingray Don said:
Preliminary report indicates the Beech entered the pattern behind the Diamond on downwind and was not making radio calls. The Diamond would not have been able to see the Beech and without a radio call would have had no idea the Beech was even there.

Initial radar data provided by air traffic control indicated that the pilot of Beech entered an extended downwind from the north, above and directly behind the Diamond, which was also on downwind leg of the traffic pattern. The ground speed of the Beech was about 50 knots greater than the Diamond. The last radar returns, were about 2,000 feet above mean sea level, or about 850 feet above the ground. The locations of the last radar returns were in an area on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern, approaching the base leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160907X21532&key=1
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If the Bo was on an extended down wind, how did he not see the Diamond?

Or did I read that wrong, it doesn't sounds like the Bo was doing a straight in.
 
Mike Smith said:
So was the Bo above TPA or the Diamond below?
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Sounds like at least the Bonanza was pretty close to pattern altitude. If he was at 1K in the downwind and pulled power, showing 850 near base, would that be slightly high at that point?
"The last radar returns, were about 2,000 feet above mean sea level, or about 850 feet above the ground. The locations of the last radar returns were in an area on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern, approaching the base leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35."
 
Mike Smith said:
So was the Bo above TPA or the Diamond below?
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It sounds to me like the Bo descended into the downwind leg of the traffic pattern. Also of note is that the Bo was 50 knots faster so he would have closed on the Diamond rather quickly.

Initial radar data provided by air traffic control indicated that the pilot of Beech entered an extended downwind from the north, above and directly behind the Diamond, which was also on downwind leg of the traffic pattern. The ground speed of the Beech was about 50 knots greater than the Diamond. The last radar returns, were about 2,000 feet above mean sea level, or about 850 feet above the ground. The locations of the last radar returns were in an area on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern, approaching the base leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35.
 
I spoke with someone at the airport the other day, his friend is a first responder in Carrollton, I know this is third hand gossip, but apparently both occupants of the Diamond were decapitated. Very sad ending for two young lives.

Stingray Don said:
It sounds to me like the Bo descended into the downwind leg of the traffic pattern. Also of note is that the Bo was 50 knots faster so he would have closed on the Diamond rather quickly.

Initial radar data provided by air traffic control indicated that the pilot of Beech entered an extended downwind from the north, above and directly behind the Diamond, which was also on downwind leg of the traffic pattern. The ground speed of the Beech was about 50 knots greater than the Diamond. The last radar returns, were about 2,000 feet above mean sea level, or about 850 feet above the ground. The locations of the last radar returns were in an area on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern, approaching the base leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35.
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Stingray Don said:
It sounds to me like the Bo descended into the downwind leg of the traffic pattern. Also of note is that the Bo was 50 knots faster so he would have closed on the Diamond rather quickly.

Initial radar data provided by air traffic control indicated that the pilot of Beech entered an extended downwind from the north, above and directly behind the Diamond, which was also on downwind leg of the traffic pattern. The ground speed of the Beech was about 50 knots greater than the Diamond. The last radar returns, were about 2,000 feet above mean sea level, or about 850 feet above the ground. The locations of the last radar returns were in an area on the downwind leg of the traffic pattern, approaching the base leg of the traffic pattern for runway 35.
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Damn, you would have thought the Bo pilot should have been scanning the pattern looking for someone being as there were 3 planes in the pattern. It sounds like he just ran up and on top that Diamond.
 
Third hand info I got was there were other instructors in the pattern also and they never heard the BO on the radio.
 
Those other aircraft were from the same flight school as the Diamond involved in the crash. I imagine the pilots/witnesses were friends with the deceased girl. You have to wonder about their objectivity.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Those other aircraft were from the same flight school as the Diamond involved in the crash. I imagine the pilots/witnesses were friends with the deceased girl. You have to wonder about their objectivity.
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You're saying they would make something up? You either hear calls from the BO or not. Distinct difference between "Diamond xxxx left or right downwind" vs "Bonanza xxxx left or right downwind"
 
SkyDog58 said:
Those other aircraft were from the same flight school as the Diamond involved in the crash. I imagine the pilots/witnesses were friends with the deceased girl. You have to wonder about their objectivity.
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Their story seems to match the radar data. I am sure the FAA is going to be able to bring up the last frequency on the Bo's radio to see if he was even tuned in properly.
 
Oh, I'm not saying that they made it up or didn't make it up. I just would be cautious to give full credence to anyone who might be biased. I would definitely use it for corroboration of other evidence or testimony. Now, if someone totally unconnected to either pilot were to provide such testimony, I would give it more credence on face value alone. That might come across as being a bit suspicious or cynical but I have a fair bit of experience in dealing with issues where the only witnesses come from one side of the argument. I'm just advocating caution in awarding belief.
 
midcap said:
Their story seems to match the radar data. I am sure the FAA is going to be able to bring up the last frequency on the Bo's radio to see if he was even tuned in properly.
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This is my hope, that they can figure out how his radios were tuned. Unicom there is 122.975 which is easy to imagine misreading or mistuning. It's something like 10 nm outside of the class B so maybe he was on with Atlanta Approach and didn't even bother to tune, didn't have time, or forgot. These are all mistakes on his part and they are all understandable mistakes to make. Combine one of them with the mistake of not seeing the traffic you are coming up behind at highway speeds in the pattern and you get a disaster.
 
N747JB said:
I spoke with someone at the airport the other day, his friend is a first responder in Carrollton, I know this is third hand gossip, but apparently both occupants of the Diamond were decapitated. Very sad ending for two young lives.
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I hope this is true. It means they died so fast that they really didn't know what happened and were spared the horrors of the ride to the ground. In this case, they are much closer to actually "dying doing what they love" then the vast majority of GA fatalities. No one loves being a witness to the end of their own life.
 
midcap said:
If the Bo was on an extended down wind, how did he not see the Diamond?

Or did I read that wrong, it doesn't sounds like the Bo was doing a straight in.
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The Bo was likely above the DA20 as he descended into the TP on the downwind and when they were turning the base to final that was when the Bo descended into the Diamond. That's what I gather anyway..
 
Doesn't your air field have NORDO traffic? Mine did before the tower. And we always looked out the final leg when turning base. Then again one last time before turning final.

Many time there were aircraft there not talking....no biggie we'd extend downwind.
 
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