Crash in Carrollton GA 2 airplanes down, 3 dead.
- Thread starter N747JB
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Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Perhaps a better answer IMO is to simply continue to make standard pattern calls when the ATITPPA guy calls up rather than specifically addressing or ignoring the call.
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
I'm saying he did announce his position, but asking for my position doesn't help him at all. Say he's 10 to the NW, entering on a 45 for left downwind 35. I'm already on downwind, I just made that call probably before he switched to the frequency and announced. I know he's 10 miles out and I'm already on downwind, he doesn't need to know where I'm at, I'm no factor for him. I'll just make my call when I turn base.
I know people have argued this before, but in Central Texas 122.8 is an overcrowded frequency. Adding calls we don't need can put others at risk. If you make your first call at 10 miles out and listen for others, you should have plenty of time to hear where other planes are without asking specifically.
RotorDude
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GliderDude
This. That's what I do.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Have to disagree. I know handhelds are much better now but see and avoid is important too. If I owned a Cub I probably wouldn't bother w/ a radio. Hey maybe that's why Cubs are all yellow!
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
Again, the FAA says you should NEVER make this call. Stop making the call and then telling others how we should respond. I don't need to be courteous to someone who doesn't know what they're doing and is not following the rules. Me telling him where I am in the scenario I gave gives him no useful data. If I'm on crosswind, turning downwind, that call may mean something to my safety and his and I'll make my normal call. It's called using judgement and I guess I have a different opinion than you do. I have a low tolerance for people wasting time on the radio when we are talked over on almost every call. Make the correct calls and think about what you're going to say first so you don't stumble through it.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Isn't that from the AIM Jack? If so it's recommended but not mandatory either. I'm just a believer if you have a radio why not use it? Not saying you have to respond to that plane either. OTH, although maybe safer, if I'm in a Cub I don't want a radio (handheld). See, I'm all over the place.
TexDeuce
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One thing I don't understand: everytime this is brought up people say "see and avoid is important" as if people with radios don't do see and avoid. Of course you do. And you should also be on the radio. Having a radio is MUCH better and safer than just relying on see and avoid.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't disagree with any of what you wrote. You are correct.
folks, many of these mid-airs occur with ATC directing the circus....and everyone "is" talking.
Yep, like the one at your home drone last year. That one still haunts me. I was thinking about it the other week when I was flying into a busy Class D and I was getting instructions that didn't make much since. I followed until I realized that he was calling my tail number thinking I was another plane. Once I told him you could tell he was really confused until he figured it out...scary.
I am getting more and more paranoid about the pattern which I guess is a good thing as it makes me try to be more aware of what I see and hear.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
Uh dude, you do realize that I am strongly opposed to the ATITPPA call, right?
Just want you make sure since you quoted me and then went off in a rant.
I'm NOT the one making that stupid call.
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Lindberg
Final Approach
Maybe some anti-authority attitude and some looking around outside would solve more problems.folks, many of these mid-airs occur with ATC directing the circus....and everyone "is" talking.
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
LOL, misread that one! I see now you were saying to keep making standard radio calls, which is what I'm doing too. I just read the part where you said "specifically ignoring the call". I'm not ignoring them, but not specifically answering them either!
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
I don't know why I didn't think of another accident before now. In 2004, in Georgetown, TX (KGTU) we had a collision of two landing planes. Everyone survived as it was on short final, but it was scary. Both pilots claimed to be on CTAF and broadcasting their positions, but neither heard the other. One witness who was taxiing heard no calls, one heard one plane say "short final" but wasn't sure which plane. Both radios were set to CTAF 123.00 when the NTSB checked them. One plane was a Diamond making a standard pattern, the other was a Giles 202 doing a landing style a lot of aerobatic pilots use, a slipping 180 from downwind. He landed on top of the Diamond NTSB: FTW04LA123A We lost the pilot of the Giles last year when his tail came off of a another Giles.
sferguson524
Pattern Altitude
I understand your open tower comment was most likely sarcasm, however, we've got some low timers here.
A CFI I flew with and a student were killed in a midair at CRQ with an open and operating ATCT. Open tower does not preclude midairs.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...f05b73-6a89-464c-8f40-a519fcf84d66&pgsize=200
FastEddieB
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Fast Eddie B
My nearest midair was at Opa Locka, a towered airport.
Not long after that there was one there involving a Coast Guard helicopter.
Towers provide a benefit, but far from any guarantees.
Not long after that there was one there involving a Coast Guard helicopter.
Towers provide a benefit, but far from any guarantees.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
For those on IFR, sometimes we don't get turned loose until well within 10 miles, I try to listen on 2nd radio, but multitasking radios is not easy when they're busy.
This thread provides food for thought. What I get from it is fly the correct pattern, look out the window, announce where you are, listen for other traffic, and hope for the best. It's some comfort that midairs are rare.
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/speeches/EWeener/Documents/weener_20150425.pdf
Perhaps not suprisingly, midairs show up more often on instructional flights. The pattern isn't the safest place for airplanes.
http://www.ntsb.gov/news/speeches/EWeener/Documents/weener_20150425.pdf
Perhaps not suprisingly, midairs show up more often on instructional flights. The pattern isn't the safest place for airplanes.
N659HB
En-Route
Having a tower is no guarantee of separation, and most D's have no radar, IIRC. There was a well-publicized mid-air in Chicago a few years back, over the lake, and both planes were communicating with ATC. Anyone recall this?
Tarheelpilot
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Not saying it's the best choice but when I'm monitoring CTAF and hear lots of traffic at the airport I'll cancel early if it's good vfr or tell the controller I have to switch if it's too much to effectively work two com's at once. To me it's more important to work myself into the traffic flow than to stay with the controller.
Wonder if the proximity of their airframes and antenna positions "shaped" the propogation of their signals, or they had the weird bad luck to step on each other's call simultaneousky, maybe two or three times? VHF is odd - after being taught vegetation was RF transparent, I watched a single tree, swaying in a strong wind, at Andrews AFB, positioned between me and the VOR. The CDI was moving in sync with the tree's movement. . .
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
People buzzing around without ADSB in & out...
People buzzing around without TCAS...
People buzzing around without an air-to-air radar...
People buzzing around without NCTR...
Where does it end?
Nauga,
just a workman with tools
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
This summer is the first time I flew planes with ADS-B in & out. Even in Alaska I am surprised at how many planes are within 10 miles of me that I would not have seen otherwise. Up here most planes fly village to village on very common routes, and it is nice to see another plane 10 miles before we have a visual on each other, especially when the visibility is..... uh.... lets say at minimums.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Pull up any thread here by someone troubleshooting an audio panel (incorrectly) or a radio problem (incorrectly), and tell me everyone's radios always work. LOL.
Just tossing that hand grenade for fun...
Just tossing that hand grenade for fun...
TexDeuce
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TexDeuce
I'm not real concerned about where it ends, but it sure as hell should start with a radio. Buzzing around the pattern without a radio is foolish and inconsiderate to everyone in aviation.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Who didn't have a radio?
I don't think so, not foolish or inconsiderate. Higher risk? Sure, concur. . . Might be guys who accept that risk, and are neither foolish or inconsiderate in their own eyes. And it's a risk you have to accept, as well, if you want to play, since it's within the rules. Your alternative is to stick with towered airports, or take up oragami or spoon collecting. . . or lobby for a rules change.
I hear you, and I use the radio. Just like to leave some room for NORDO
folks, or other, "unconventional" types
Hank S
En-Route
My one ATITPPA experience was quite simple: departing in Runway 8 at dusk, with my CFII on an Instrument training flight. I'd made taxiing and back-taxiing calls, made my departure call, and just as I was rotating some genius calls "Lawrence Co. traffic, Cessna XXXX one mile east, ATITPPA please advise." I answered "Traffic calling Lawrence Co., Mooney XXXX is departing Runway 8, just coming over the trees! Hope you're not in front of me!" He was about 1/2 mile to my left as I cleaned up and pulled over the trees, well under traffic pattern and well inside the standard #8 downwind (easy to tell, he wasn't behind the ridge). Made me madder'n a wet hen, and with any luck scared the bejeebers outa him. It may be a sleepy airport, but you cain't ever count on having the whole pattern to yourself to do whatever you feel like. He was a First Class Asshat!
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
It didn’t take long for me to experience someone giving bad radio putting me at increased risk at a pilot controlled field.
I don’t know any experienced pilots that don’t have at least a few such stories.
The more flying experience I get the more juvenile the argument appears that good radio doesn’t prevent all midair collisions or that see and avoid is enough.
Helping all the people in the pattern achieve better situational awareness seems like a good thing to me.
Surviving not giving good radio calls does not indicate to me that it is a good idea; it only suggests to me there are a lot of better pilots out there with some luck that are able to avoid people who don’t take their flying seriously.
I don’t know any experienced pilots that don’t have at least a few such stories.
The more flying experience I get the more juvenile the argument appears that good radio doesn’t prevent all midair collisions or that see and avoid is enough.
Helping all the people in the pattern achieve better situational awareness seems like a good thing to me.
Surviving not giving good radio calls does not indicate to me that it is a good idea; it only suggests to me there are a lot of better pilots out there with some luck that are able to avoid people who don’t take their flying seriously.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
My closest encounter to an actual midair was with my daughter and an Angel Flight patient, inbound to Corpus Christi in a Mooney, IFR in VFR.
Houston Approach wouldn't let me go to tower despite airport in sight. Just "stay with me for a minute, please." No traffic callouts.
I was listening to Tower on #2... it was busy. Keeping my eyes outside, mentally trying to place traffic.
Finally, inside of five miles, a rapid fire "211 Sierra Charlie, contact tower 119.4, good day." Again no calls about traffic.
I switch, but before I can key up I have a face full of Bonanza climbing on a left crosswind departure right at me, closing fast. I push hard, we go weightless, and he goes right over the top of me less than 100' away.
He saw me too: he keyed up and yelled at the Tower, I checked in with Tower and was cleared to land. Nobody offered an explanation. Can't believe Approach didn't call the traffic. But he sure seemed hurry to get rid of me at the end.
My daughter and passenger were ok. I was a little rattled, but not horribly. But I was apparently mentally shaken a little, as it took me 15 minutes into the night flight home to realize my gear was still down. And here I thought the headwinds were stronger than forecast and causing my slow ground speed.
Nope.
So, point of that story is: you can be talking to all the right people and doing things "by the book" and human or surveillance errors can compound to create an incident.
strangebird
Pre-takeoff checklist
Not to reopen this thread but yesterday morning was CAVU here in the ATL area , I headed over to KCTJ to see a buddy and buy some cheap gas where this accident happened, I am on the unicom frequency listening for traffic as I am about to enter the traffic pattern, now KCTJ shares the same unicom frequency as Lagrange GA KLGC, which is the South.
I here this Diamond calling but the pilot is talking faster than a NY approach controller, all I could make out was that it was Diamond, but not at what airport or his position, with this recent accident fresh in my mind I circle outside the pattern to try and figure just where this aircraft is.
Now there is a flight school at Coweta County about 25 miles Southeast that has a fleet of Diamonds used to train a lot of foreign pilots and some are Chinese, and they use both KCTJ and KLGC for training. A Diamond was involved in this accident.
After listening to three calls by this Diamond I finally figured out they were at Lagrange, I finally said to the Diamond" no one can understand a word you are saying and slow down when you speak on the radio," of course no reply. The next call was the same rapid fire and totally incomprehensible.
I am hoping that someone from that flight school is on here, and all I am saying is that with the recent tragedy that you would tell (demand) your foreign students with thick accents to enunciate clearly in English and talk slowly when making position reports so the rest of us can understand y'all!! and we know where you are flying, and not have to play guessing games.
I here this Diamond calling but the pilot is talking faster than a NY approach controller, all I could make out was that it was Diamond, but not at what airport or his position, with this recent accident fresh in my mind I circle outside the pattern to try and figure just where this aircraft is.
Now there is a flight school at Coweta County about 25 miles Southeast that has a fleet of Diamonds used to train a lot of foreign pilots and some are Chinese, and they use both KCTJ and KLGC for training. A Diamond was involved in this accident.
After listening to three calls by this Diamond I finally figured out they were at Lagrange, I finally said to the Diamond" no one can understand a word you are saying and slow down when you speak on the radio," of course no reply. The next call was the same rapid fire and totally incomprehensible.
I am hoping that someone from that flight school is on here, and all I am saying is that with the recent tragedy that you would tell (demand) your foreign students with thick accents to enunciate clearly in English and talk slowly when making position reports so the rest of us can understand y'all!! and we know where you are flying, and not have to play guessing games.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Very true.