Crash in Carrollton GA 2 airplanes down, 3 dead.

Checkout_my_Six said:
Doesn't your air field have NORDO traffic? Mine did before the tower. And we always looked out the final leg when turning base. Then again one last time before turning final.

Many time there were aircraft there not talking....no biggie we'd extend downwind.
Click to expand...

Are you for real? You always saw traffic that was above and behind you and not talking?
 
You could do everything right in an airplane but just like driving a car someone could do everything wrong and affect you!
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Why couldn't the flight instructor see the NORDO traffic?
Click to expand...

The DA20-C1 may have pretty good visibility but that is a pretty large blind spot from behind and above. Not sure there is any possible way the DA20 could have seen the Bo. The more relevant questions would be, why didn't the Bo see the Diamond which was broadcasting position reports all the way around the pattern?

14.jpg
 
midcap said:
If the Bo was on an extended down wind, how did he not see the Diamond?
Click to expand...

Could have been a lot of reasons. Might not have been really looking all that hard. Busy in the cockpit behind the airplane. Descending into the pattern instead of entering it already at TPA. Not checking the sky obscured by the cowl by doing a little S turning or a little slip to the left and then the right. See is the first step in see and avoid. Until they make see through cowls, you have to take 'action' to see what's out there.
 
It appears there were several links in the accident chain.
  • Bo entered the pattern on downwind (non standard pattern entry)
  • Bo descended into the pattern rather than entering at TPA
  • Bo was not broadcasting position reports or reacting to the DA20's position reports (possibly wrong freq or non working radio)
  • Bo failed to see and avoid the traffic in front of him
  • Also of note was the difference in speed between the two aircraft involved
 
luvflyin said:
Could have been a lot of reasons. Might not have been really looking all that hard. Busy in the cockpit behind the airplane. Descending into the pattern instead of entering it already at TPA. Not checking the sky obscured by the cowl by doing a little S turning or a little slip to the left and then the right. See is the first step in see and avoid. Until they make see through cowls, you have to take 'action' to see what's out there.
Click to expand...

As we age, our field of vision narrows, and we also have more difficulty dealing with multiple simultaneous streams of information. The Bonanza pilot was 79 years old, I wonder if that was a contributing factor.

I certainly wouldn't want to put a hard limit as to what age someone had to hang up his headset, but I do think it would be appropriate for older pilots (and motorists) to be periodically evaluated to ensure they're still capable pilots.
 
FloridaPilot said:
You could do everything right in an airplane but just like driving a car someone could do everything wrong and affect you!
Click to expand...
I agree, it's the other guy you have to watch out for. I think this accident will shed some lessons for everyone.
 
I have not been able to see traffic that I was alerted to, especially trying to pick out planes in the ground clutter or hazy sky. See and avoid just doesn't work.
 
Stingray Don said:
It appears there were several links in the accident chain.
  • Bo entered the pattern on downwind (non standard pattern entry)
  • Bo descended into the pattern rather than entering at TPA
  • Bo was not broadcasting position reports or reacting to the DA20's position reports (possibly wrong freq or non working radio)
  • Bo failed to see and avoid the traffic in front of him
  • Also of note was the difference in speed between the two aircraft involved
Click to expand...
I see whatcha did there.....:lol:
 
This one hit closer to home last night. Our EAA Chapter has an active youth program with young folks age 14 + up currently building an ultra-lite Pietenpol from scratch. We also have a summer camp in June. A young lady that was in our summer camp and also participates in our build program actually soloed this past summer with the CFI killed in this accident.

We had a dinner last night to acknowledge the parents of our youth programs and several of the youth did presentations for us and she was one of those. She had a slide at the end with pictures she had taken of Taylor Stone, including one of her having her shirt tail cut by Taylor.
 
I fkng HATE NORDO. Hate it. Forget adsb mandate, enforce having a handheld at the bare minimum. I am not going to argue back and forth "waahh but I don't have electrical waahh see and avoid waahh but u can have a radio and be on the wrong frequency waahh". Get a fkng radio. P!sses me off to no end.*

*im not saying this is or isn't what happened in this case, I'm just saying get a fkng radio.
 
eman1200 said:
I fkng HATE NORDO. Hate it. Forget adsb mandate, enforce having a handheld at the bare minimum. I am not going to argue back and forth "waahh but I don't have electrical waahh see and avoid waahh but u can have a radio and be on the wrong frequency waahh". Get a fkng radio. P!sses me off to no end.*

*im not saying this is or isn't what happened in this case, I'm just saying get a fkng radio.
Click to expand...


Any other traffic please advise...... when ever I hear that and there is no response, I am pretty sure that person is head down and no longer looking for traffic.

Stick to open control towers and you will not have a problem.

What bothers me most if private pilot types that give their life story on the radio, several times and not giving others a chance to reply...
 
Zeldman said:
What bothers me most if private pilot types that give their life story on the radio, several times and not giving others a chance to reply...
Click to expand...

What ****es me off more is when I'm going into an unfamiliar field and two locals are having a conversation on the CTAF frequency! And continue even after you start talking.
 
ya....the tower will save you....maybe on the ground, but not in the air. :lol:
 
eman1200 said:
I fkng HATE NORDO. Hate it. Forget adsb mandate, enforce having a handheld at the bare minimum. I am not going to argue back and forth "waahh but I don't have electrical waahh see and avoid waahh but u can have a radio and be on the wrong frequency waahh". Get a fkng radio. P!sses me off to no end.*

*im not saying this is or isn't what happened in this case, I'm just saying get a fkng radio.
Click to expand...
I completely agree. I'm pretty sure you can find a handheld on ebay for $100.
 
Cavorter said:
What ****es me off more is when I'm going into an unfamiliar field and two locals are having a conversation on the CTAF frequency! And continue even after you start talking.
Click to expand...
My cfi used to just intentionally step on their transmissions and cut out the middle of their sentences. They usually gave up pretty quick.
 
Zeldman said:
Any other traffic please advise...... when ever I hear that and there is no response, I am pretty sure that person is head down and no longer looking for traffic.

Stick to open control towers and you will not have a problem.

What bothers me most if private pilot types that give their life story on the radio, several times and not giving others a chance to reply...
Click to expand...
Yeah, and stay away from Brown or Frederick or any of the other towered fields and controlled airspace where midairs have occurred. Talking on the radio will not save you. At best, it will give you hints where to look, but you can't assume you'll be looking in the right place, and in the pattern, you already know where you should be looking. See and Avoid.
 
Lindberg said:
Yeah, and stay away from Brown or Frederick or any of the other towered fields and controlled airspace where midairs have occurred. Talking on the radio will not save you. At best, it will give you hints where to look, but you can't assume you'll be looking in the right place, and in the pattern, you already know where you should be looking. See and Avoid.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm going to install rear view mirrors on my Mooney because radios just don't work. :rolleyes:
 
Criitter7 said:
I did this by accident a few weeks ago. This is how I found out the radio was dead in the plane i was flying. I changed radios and caught the tail end of an arrow pilot chewing my ass out lol
Click to expand...

i don't get angry so much anymore unless it's intentional, better safe, we all make mistakes
 
Last edited:
eman1200 said:
I fkng HATE NORDO. Hate it. Forget adsb mandate, enforce having a handheld at the bare minimum. I am not going to argue back and forth "waahh but I don't have electrical waahh see and avoid waahh but u can have a radio and be on the wrong frequency waahh". Get a fkng radio. P!sses me off to no end.*

*im not saying this is or isn't what happened in this case, I'm just saying get a fkng radio.
Click to expand...
Sorry. It will not help. Why are you so upset? Both aircraft had radios?? Making someone carry a handheld in their j-3 helps what??? How and why are no radio aircraft even part of the discussion ?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
How and why are no radio aircraft even part of the discussion ?
Click to expand...

Because the other traffic in the pattern said that the Bo made no calls. True? Who knows. But that's what they say.

It goes without saying that Eman is arguing the USE of radios, not simply having one.
 
Last edited:
timwinters said:
Because the other traffic in the pattern said that the Bo made no calls. True? Who knows. But that's what they say.

It goes without saying that Eman is arguing the USE of radios, not simply having one.
Click to expand...
I still don't see how mandating possession of and use of radios would help. I think the opposit would happen actually. Knowing there is the possibility of noradio traffic keeps most sane people vigilant with eyes outside. Know that everyone has to be talking would change things in my opinion. Not for the better either
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I still don't see how mandating possession of and use of radios would help.
Click to expand...
It won't.

You'll still have the anti-authority types who will won't get the message and or refuse to use the radio and you will still have cases where the wrong freq gets dialed in and two well intentioned pilots can be talking all day long and not hear each other.

As far as this particular accident goes, I would be very interested to see if the NTSB is able to determine if the Bo's radio was dialed into the correct freq. Unfortunately, being that this is a GA accident, they might not even bother to dig that deep.
 
folks, many of these mid-airs occur with ATC directing the circus....and everyone "is" talking. :eek:
 
eman i would bet that bonanza had at least 2 coms .and might have been knobdicking one of his fancy electronic wonders in his panel and NOT LOOKING outside for other aircraft. but haters got to hate.
 
hotprops said:
eman i would bet that bonanza had at least 2 coms .and might have been knobdicking one of his fancy electronic wonders in his panel and NOT LOOKING outside for other aircraft. but haters got to hate.
Click to expand...

again, I'm not going to argue back and forth about it and I'm NOT saying forcing everyone to have a radio is going to fix everything. I'm just saying all too often people say "well, he didn't have a radio, nothing you can do". boolsheet. get a fkng radio and use it. if someone has a radio and is on the wrong frequency, well that obviously sux but human error is gonna happen. "fk it, I don't have to have/use a radio" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.
 
Zeldman said:
Any other traffic please advise...... when ever I hear that and there is no response, I am pretty sure that person is head down and no longer looking for traffic.
Click to expand...

Not when I don't answer. I'm listening and I'm making my radios calls, I just don't respond to this stupid request. Make your call and listen... most of the time other traffic will advise when they hear a new plane calling in... of course we've had this discussion on POA before. You're just wasting time making long radio calls on an already busy frequency.

AIM 4-1-9(g). "Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF . . . Pilots stating 'Traffic in the area please advise' is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition."
 
Lowflynjack said:
Not when I don't answer. I'm listening and I'm making my radios calls, I just don't respond to this stupid request.
Click to expand...

I can't think of any reason NOT to answer such a transmission. Seems like some sort of misplaced pride - or something - getting in the way of a position report that could help the guy or gal out - in spite of it being a "stupid request".
 
FormerHangie said:
As we age, our field of vision narrows, and we also have more difficulty dealing with multiple simultaneous streams of information. The Bonanza pilot was 79 years old, I wonder if that was a contributing factor.

I certainly wouldn't want to put a hard limit as to what age someone had to hang up his headset, but I do think it would be appropriate for older pilots (and motorists) to be periodically evaluated to ensure they're still capable pilots.
Click to expand...

We have an elderly gentleman at our field that is a good pilot until something goes awry, then it's a downward spiral. Unfortunately he puts himself into situations which lead to his problems.
 
FastEddieB said:
I can't think of any reason NOT to answer such a transmission. Seems like some sort of misplaced pride - or something - getting in the way of a position report that could help the guy or gal out - in spite of it being a "stupid request".
Click to expand...
If I'm on downwind about to turn base, and you're calling 10 miles West inbound, all traffic please advise, you're just tying up the radio. I will make my announcement when I turn base and I'll have been no factor to you. Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this is a good idea, and no it's not my pride... the FAA publication says not to ever use that transmission.
 
Lowflynjack said:
If I'm on downwind about to turn base, and you're calling 10 miles West inbound, all traffic please advise, you're just tying up the radio. I will make my announcement when I turn base and I'll have been no factor to you. Apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this is a good idea, and no it's not my pride... the FAA publication says not to ever use that transmission.
Click to expand...
Well at that point you know he is out there somewhere, you could ask him for his position that he didn't provide vs. waiting to reach your base turn. You could even ask it in a snide tone. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top