Controllers...what are your pet peeves?

Timbeck2 said:
As I said on page 2:

As a controller, one of my pet peeves is when someone starts a thread called, "controllers...what are your pet peeves?" and it morphs into a bunch of pilots talking about their pet peeves.
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Alas such is the danger of creating a thread on controller peeves on *pilots* of America ;)


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Timbeck2 said:
As I said on page 2:

As a controller, one of my pet peeves is when someone starts a thread called, "controllers...what are your pet peeves?" and it morphs into a bunch of pilots talking about their pet peeves.
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So, this is one of your pet peeves, then? :)

Just checking... heh heh.
 
This is not a peeve really, just an opportunity for me to learn how atc works.
A lot of my flying is on the fringes of the NAS with little traffic it seems, and I often key up to talk to a center controller who has turned off his mic for my part of his sector. So he hears me, but I cannot hear him or the other pilots he is talking to.
(Be assured I always listen in for a lengthy period to ensure I am not talking over someone.)

So I call up center and immediately, atc switches on their mic for my sector - I can hear a pause, followed by part of his instruction to another a/c. (I cannot hear the other pilot as all that is taking place on another frequency.)

The main issue is that I don't want to be walking on anyone, least of all atc.

So, in my mind, if he left his mic on for my part of his sector, I would hear him talking to other pilots even if they are on another frequency, and would not fill his ears at an inopportune time.

Why does that mic get turned off? I'm sure there is a good reason.
 
Controller peeves, not your questions thread! Geez start your own thread, or post under one that deals with ATC questions/inquiries/complaints etc! ;)

Timbeck made me say this BTW. :D
 
Well done Mark, well done.

Dave, could it be that instead of "turning off his mike" the controller is just talking to military guys on UHF frequencies?
 
I can't be sure but these seem to be carriers. As soon as he flips the mic switch on I can hear him and it sounds like the usual day to day stuff that carriers get and it happens so often - I know the types of instructions they give to mil and it is not that often so I pretty sure it is not them. Around here they are down lower, often in flights of 2+, asking for blocks, or popups back to Del Rio. I have ABQ ctr's number, I should just call them.
 
They can select different transmitters for a certain freq based on the location of an aircraft. They also have different VHF freqs up at once and like Tim said, they have UHF up for military as well. No way of getting around transmitting while there's another aircraft transmitting on another freq.
 
Some controllers don't like to simulcast on different frequencies. Myself, I don't care to do all the push button gymnastics it requires therefore I blast away on all of them. It could also be policy that whomever the controller is talking to, is on a discreet frequency and the controller is required to come off transmit on non-discreet frequencies. Who knows, you said you had ABQ's number, ask them.
 
Velocity173 said:
No way of getting around transmitting while there's another aircraft transmitting on another freq.
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Yes, I cannot hear the other a/c if they are on another freq so that is going to happen.
But my question is about stepping on the controller. Go back up.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Yes, I cannot hear the other a/c if they are on another freq so that is going to happen.
But my question is about stepping on the controller. Go back up.
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If they've selected a different transmitter site for that freq (high vs low), most likely you're not in the same area and not talking over that controller.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
This is not a peeve really, just an opportunity for me to learn how atc works.
A lot of my flying is on the fringes of the NAS with little traffic it seems, and I often key up to talk to a center controller who has turned off his mic for my part of his sector. So he hears me, but I cannot hear him or the other pilots he is talking to.
(Be assured I always listen in for a lengthy period to ensure I am not talking over someone.)

So I call up center and immediately, atc switches on their mic for my sector - I can hear a pause, followed by part of his instruction to another a/c. (I cannot hear the other pilot as all that is taking place on another frequency.)

The main issue is that I don't want to be walking on anyone, least of all atc.

So, in my mind, if he left his mic on for my part of his sector, I would hear him talking to other pilots even if they are on another frequency, and would not fill his ears at an inopportune time.

Why does that mic get turned off? I'm sure there is a good reason.
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There are some center frequencies that have more than one transmitter site for the same frequency. This will happen in large sectors with line of sight from terrain issues. Even if the controller transmits on all of the frequencies for his sector simultaneously, he will have to flip a switch to select the transmitter site for that particular frequency. It is possible for you to step on the controller inadvertently if you are in an area where you don't hear him transmitting because he is not on the remote antennae site that covers the area where you are.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Why can that switch not be left 'on'. There must be some downside that is not being said.
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The switch is not an on/off switch. It's an antennaeA/antennaeB switch. I don't know the technical details of why, but it can't be transmitting at the same time, on the same frequency, from two different antennas. I suppose it could "wired" to do so but might sound awful. There are some people here that are experts on radio stuff. Maybe they'll jump in and give us some details.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Why can that switch not be left 'on'. There must be some downside that is not being said.
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He's talking about sectors where there's a transmitter on say, one side of a mountain on the same frequency as one on the other side.

For high altitude traffic, either one works. They can hear either transmitter site.

For low altitude traffic, anyone on one side of FB mountain won't hear transmissions made by the controller on that transmitter on the other side.

But the controller flips transmitter sites when they need to talk to you in the low level bugsmasher on the other side of the mountain.

They can't transmit on both at the same time because then all the high altitude traffic would hear is a heterodyne squeal because they'd hear both transmitter sites.

I've had weird times where I was both told I would be in and out of radar coverage down low and also could only hear very noisy transmissions from the controller in the desert southwest and then the controller comes on nice and clear with a call for me... that's the only way you can tell they're using multiple transmitter sites on the same frequency.

If the other transmitter is blocked enough by terrain or whatever -- you would just hear silence in your cockpit down low, but they might be working a ton of traffic on the "other side of the mountain".
 
Palmpilot said:
After twenty-five years of flying out of a small urban airport that's hard to see from a distance even when it's severe clear, I've finally come to the conclusion that I might as well call it in sight as soon as I can positively identify its immediate neighborhood.
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This sounds like Hawthorne. First time I went there I drove the controller nuts because I couldn't see it. I got the hint
 
Changing freqs before being told.

Translating the instruction "resume own navigation" to mean go to 1200, change freqs and stop listening.

Calling inbound 6 or 7 miles off the end of live departing runways.

Translating "make short approach" to mean nice, long, leisurely, turns to base.

Initial call-ups during overloaded times and spilling their guts with information before the controller says, go ahead!!!

These are a few of my favorite things.

tex
 
Dave S. said:
Initial call-ups during overloaded times and spilling their guts with information before the controller says, go ahead!!!
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I thought initial callup should be identity, location, and request. Is that what you are talking about or are they reciting their first 40 years of life on call up?
 
Joshuajayg said:
I thought initial callup should be identity, location, and request. Is that what you are talking about or are they reciting their first 40 years of life on call up?
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I'd say that is a perfect call up. All I would throw in is type and altitude.
 
Joshuajayg said:
I meant for type and altitude to be implied by identity and location.

Cherokee 12345 over the tanks at 4,500, inbound for landing.
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Forgot the ATIS. ;-)

"Cherokee 12355 over the tanks, 4500, landing, Quebec."

Ha. Always a way to do it better.

I will say that if you keep your Comm skills up and keep stuff as tight as that above, you'll get service from even the most overloaded controller, for the most part.

You aren't their distraction or their mental problem. You fit their "brain flow" if you aren't babbling on, etc.

It's a natural human reaction. If two people walk up to my desk and have IT problems and one can articulate their problem clearly, guess who gets service first? :)
 
Joshuajayg said:
I thought initial callup should be identity, location, and request.
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Radar Contact said:
I'd say that is a perfect call up. All I would throw in is type and altitude.
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A question, for clarification. Many times, I listen to ATC for 30-60 seconds before my initial call. If the workload seems to be substantial, I will initially give only my type / tail number, then when the controller comes back, I give him my position and intentions (e.g. 'landing ABC') or request. Do controllers generally prefer more info on the initial contact? I realize the answer is somewhat situation-dependent. Just curious.
 
Colliam7 said:
A question, for clarification. Many times, I listen to ATC for 30-60 seconds before my initial call. If the workload seems to be substantial, I will initially give only my type / tail number, then when the controller comes back, I give him my position and intentions (e.g. 'landing ABC') or request. Do controllers generally prefer more info on the initial contact? I realize the answer is somewhat situation-dependent. Just curious.
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I have heard approach controllers recommend the procedure you describe (at informational presentations), but not tower controllers.
 
That's a pretty good method Bill because if you just spout out everything at once, the controller will come back and ask to clarify something making it essentially what you suggest to begin with.
 
Palmpilot said:
I have heard approach controllers recommend the procedure you describe (at informational presentations), but not tower controllers.
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Tower controllers most likely will already have the information because it was provided from approach or ground control.
 
Colliam7 said:
A question, for clarification. Many times, I listen to ATC for 30-60 seconds before my initial call. If the workload seems to be substantial, I will initially give only my type / tail number, then when the controller comes back, I give him my position and intentions (e.g. 'landing ABC') or request. Do controllers generally prefer more info on the initial contact? I realize the answer is somewhat situation-dependent. Just curious.
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Like Tim, I like this method for a few reasons.

First, let's face it, not all controller's are created equal. You have rockstars that can have a complete transmission on on the strip as soon as you finish. Then you have students and slow controllers who will come back and say "say everything after xyz approach again."

Second, there are distractions during the call up that you don't know about even when it's not busy. Plenty of times the controller could be on a landline talking to another controller. If you call and give a quick "wake up", it automatically goes out over the speaker. They SHOULD have enough SA to write your ID on a strip while they're talking on the landline. Once done on the landline, "Cessna 12345, go ahead with your request." Anything long on your end and they probably won't get it. Also, a lot of facilities have military UHF freqs up at once. You could be calling with a long transmission for FF while simultaneously on another freq "XYZ approach, Tbolt11, flight of four, one zero thousand, alpha, for the overhead." The controller is going to go to the military aircraft and probably got only ID on you and little else.

Finally, I don't know how many times I've heard aircraft with a long initial call up and they're so far away or low that ATC can't hear them. Then, once ATC does hear them it's like "XYZ approach, Piper 345 has been calling you several times." Yeah, there's the whole LoS thing.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Tower controllers most likely will already have the information because it was provided from approach or ground control.
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Unless it was an airborne aircraft that was not previously in contact with ATC.
 
Colliam7 said:
A question, for clarification. Many times, I listen to ATC for 30-60 seconds before my initial call. If the workload seems to be substantial, I will initially give only my type / tail number, then when the controller comes back, I give him my position and intentions (e.g. 'landing ABC') or request. Do controllers generally prefer more info on the initial contact? I realize the answer is somewhat situation-dependent. Just curious.
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Assuming we are talking about initial call up to Approach or Center...I asked a SoCal Tracon about this as my CFII was a blurt it all out guy and I disagreed.

The controller giving the presentation said their preference without a doubt was get their attention THEN wait for a response with all the info when THEY are ready. That is consistent with the AIM recondition:

4-2-3. Contact Procedures

a. Initial Contact.

1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:

(a) Name of the facility being called;

(b) Your full aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed in
paragraph 4-2-4, Aircraft Call Signs;

(c) When operating on an airport surface, state your position.

(d) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short



My call ups now are "NorCal, Skylane 12345 departing Watsonville, Flight Following request"...then wait.

...or "NorCal, Skylane 12345 over Watsonville inbound Monterey with Zulu"

Short and sweet. Save the life story for when they are ready to copy.
 
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... or need to copy

I agree... short and sweet until the need the info.
 
I can tell you a pet peeve if I were still doing ATC today. Asking ATC about traffic that's on your ADS-B display and ATC hasn't called it out yet. Starting to hear that more and more these days. Heard the frustration in a JAX approach controller the other day in her description of traffic that was no factor.

If you're going to use FF, then use it and wait for ATC to issue traffic that may be a factor. If you see a target on your display and you're in no danger of hitting, then don't waste air time by querying the controller.
 
the sw fl sector atc are always too busy for everything, flight following a occasional pop up because of weather .I did most of my flying in the ny long island tri state area, now that's busy! a standby was always short and they would take the minimum info needed to get you in the system and get more as they find time .the atc people down here have NO idea what busy is . just saying. and just like everything there is good everywhere.
 
hotprops said:
the sw fl sector atc are always too busy for everything, flight following a occasional pop up because of weather .I did most of my flying in the ny long island tri state area, now that's busy! a standby was always short and they would take the minimum info needed to get you in the system and get more as they find time .the atc people down here have NO idea what busy is . just saying. and just like everything there is good everywhere.
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New York approach is the big leagues of ATC. Controllers in general don't have confidence issues but NY approach guys and gals have an extra swagger in their step.
 
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