Controllers...what are your pet peeves?

Oh yeah, if you're VFR, looking to pick up an IFR clearance for approaches, let the controller know.

Had a guy one time call up and ask for a LOC into the local uncontrolled airport. He simply requested a "practice approach." After getting radar ID, I gave him the usual "maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided." Which he came back with an attitude "well...doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose?" After a couple more exchanges, I finally got it out of him that he wanted an IFR clearance. He could have eliminated all confusion to begin with by just saying "N12345, requesting local IFR to XYZ for a practice localizer approach."
 
Velocity173 said:
...Had a guy one time call up and ask for a LOC into the local uncontrolled airport. He simply requested a "practice approach." After getting radar ID, I gave him the usual "maintain VFR, practice approach approved, no separation services provided." Which he came back with an attitude "well...doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose?" After a couple more exchanges, I finally got it out of him that he wanted an IFR clearance. He could have eliminated all confusion to begin with by just saying "N12345, requesting local IFR to XYZ for a practice localizer approach."
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Although I have heard before that controllers understand "practice approach" to mean that it's conducted under VFR unless otherwise specified, the Pilot/Controller Glossary doesn't define it that way. That might have been the source of the confusion.

"PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACH− An
instrument approach procedure conducted by a VFR
or an IFR aircraft for the purpose of pilot training or
proficiency demonstrations."​
 
Palmpilot said:
Although I have heard before that controllers understand "practice approach" to mean that it's conducted under VFR unless otherwise specified, the Pilot/Controller Glossary doesn't define it that way. That might have been the source of the confusion.

"PRACTICE INSTRUMENT APPROACH− An
instrument approach procedure conducted by a VFR
or an IFR aircraft for the purpose of pilot training or
proficiency demonstrations."​
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Yes, and as the definition states, it can be done done either for a VFR or IFR aircraft. This was a VFR aircraft. This pilot incorrectly assumed that since he requested an IAP, that automatically means he's requesting an IFR clearance. Plenty of VFR only pilots conducting practice approaches. It's about making your intentions clearly known from the get go.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yes, and as the definition states, it can be done done either for a VFR or IFR aircraft. This was a VFR aircraft. This pilot incorrectly assumed that since he requested an IAP, that automatically means he's requesting an IFR clearance. Plenty of VFR only pilots conducting practice approaches. It's about making your intentions clearly known from the get go.
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Good point. Since it's an "or," the person making the request should specify which is wanted.
 
luvflyin said:
Stepping on other transmissions when checking in after a frequency change. There is almost never a need to not listen for a bit before pushing the button.
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My instructor had to beat this one into my head. For whatever reason, I would change frequencies and almost immediately key the mic...once a 70 year old with twice as many years flying as you have living gets on your ass about it, it becomes ingrained pretty quickly
 
TRocket said:
My instructor had to beat this one into my head. For whatever reason, I would change frequencies and almost immediately key the mic...once a 70 year old with twice as many years flying as you have living gets on your ass about it, it becomes ingrained pretty quickly
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Hahahaha. I know that feeling. Not about the radio, but flying with a 75 year old 40,000 guy can be intimidating at times and glorious when nuggets of wisdom are offered.

Today was the first day where we flew with me in the right seat of the Seminole. Me pretending to teach him something is pretty weird for me. He's incredibly gracious about it and helps with tips.

Biggest tip today was, "I'm not saying to never trust your students, but... just keep from having stuff in your hands during critical times and slide your feet up onto the rudder pedals when you think you might need them there, but try not to be real obvious about it. Let them fly the plane, but don't trust them 100%..."

Which of course, I knew. But hearing it calmly and carefully reiterated by someone who's got more time teaching than I'll probably hit in a lifetime, changes the message ever so slightly. ;)
 
One that gets me is when a controller working multiple freqs gets ****y and gives a snide "listen up guys you stepping all over each other" sorry, but I can't hear people calling you on some other Freq.

Bob
 
CharlieFoxtrot said:
Listen before keying up. Also, when I talk to a pilot and as soon as I un-key another pilots calls up with something. Did you think the pilot I was talking to wasn't going to respond? Whether you can hear him or not (your frequency or another), he is responding. Pretend like you are responding, and wait the amount of time it would take you to respond to that, and then wait another 2 seconds and talk. Also, if all you are doing is checking in, and the controller is busy, just wait. When the controller has a second, he will reach out to you. Don't worry, he won't be mad you didn't talk. He knew he was busy! He is silently thanking you. If there is a decent gap, then try again but don't be impatient. It's just the altimeter and it's probably within a point or two of your last altimeter ;)
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Fantastic recommendation!
 
Timbeck2 said:
As a controller, one of my pet peeves is when someone starts a thread called, "controllers...what are your pet peeves?" and it morphs into a bunch of pilots talking about their pet peeves.
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I had the same thought, and I'm not even a controller!
 
unsafervguy said:
One that gets me is when a controller working multiple freqs gets ****y and gives a snide "listen up guys you stepping all over each other" sorry, but I can't hear people calling you on some other Freq.

Bob
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The controller in that case isn't complaining about multiple aircraft on different frequencies. Getting "stepped on," or "blocked" is when two or more aircraft transmit over the same frequency. That's what they're complaining about.
 
Timbeck2 said:
As a controller, one of my pet peeves is when someone starts a thread called, "controllers...what are your pet peeves?" and it morphs into a bunch of pilots talking about their pet peeves.
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You're far too controlling. I bet you don't go to uncontrolled airports. :)
 
I like controlled airports especially when I know the first and last names of most of the people I'm talking to. I wouldn't exactly say that I get special privileges but, I get special privileges. :)
 
I am pretty sure atc is grateful and appreciative when pilots 'help' them with their arduous task of moving and spacing aircraft. You know, pilot has ads-b or tcas and can see the 'exact same thing' as on the controller's scope. So he notices a 'better way' of working the flow, eg: "Approach, why don't you let me turn in now, and go ahead of that slower twin on the 15mi final, it might be a lot more efficient". Thoughtful and helpful, right?
 
Oh, a flight following one. Set it up with atc; frequency, squawk code, type and destination blah blah. Then, turn the radio down low, or turn up the tunes and zone out, have a mini-nap or start an involved conversation. Center will clear a path for you, right? If they can't get you after 3 or 4 tries, you are still good - they will move everyone else. You know where the sector line is and can set your timer to wake you up and catch your handoff!

Edited to include this is a post intended to be sarcastic humor. (I had read about this a few years ago and was impressed by the writer (controller's) angst over the event. )
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
I am pretty sure atc is grateful and appreciative when pilots 'help' them with their arduous task of moving and spacing aircraft. You know, pilot has ads-b or tcas and can see the 'exact same thing' as on the controller's scope. So he notices a 'better way' of working the flow, eg: "Approach, why don't you let me turn in now, and go ahead of that slower twin on the 15mi final, it might be a lot more efficient". Thoughtful and helpful, right?
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Depends. They have a plan for you from the outset and may be limited by LoA or other rules you can't see. And no, pilots do NOT always have the same view on their traffic system the controller sees. So your "helpful idea" may just be radio blather they don't need. Or it might actually be helpful.

I definitely wouldn't add wording like "it might be more efficient" to an idea transmission like that. I'd just say, "we could accept a heading of XXX to intercept early if that helps" -- they already have the picture and know what will work and what won't, and have been doing their job a lot longer than I have!

I'd be interested to see what controllers think of "helpful" pilots and how often it's really helpful and how often it's just extra noise.

Stuff where it has "worked" or the controller seemed to like it was things like you mentioned, a quick "we can do it slightly non-standard to help you out" and stuff where it seemed not to be a big deal was stuff like ...

"Cessna XXX radar contact lost, we'll pick you up again in about 30 minutes. Remain this frequency."

"Okay thanks. We could accept higher if you like."

"No need. Radar is spotty there at your altitude but it's not a problem."

"Roger, Cessna XXX".

The other time being "helpful" seems to work is if they forget a Bravo clearance or something and it's too busy to get a word in edgewise so you legally and properly descend...

"Cessna XXX I see you now at 8500 descending, cleared into the Bravo airspace, maintain 8500." I knew they just forgot the request, no big deal.

And the constant bane of the non-GPS driver given a direct clearance...

"Unable to accept direct, we are slant alpha equipped but we can accept a vector until receiving YYY and heading 320 looks good."

Never had a controller not take me up on that offer, yet. Haha. If it's quieter I'll change that to "but we are vector qualified!" for a chuckle.

The one I've never ever had a TRACON controller take me up on is the offer to descend below a Bravo and continue on course when we've had to deviate a significant distance off course. You can offer to get out of their hair and below the controlled airspace all day long and they'll never take you up on it around here, anyway.

If you were really way off course and being vectored all over hell and gone, you could honestly force the issue and just say you're doing it, but I usually don't. "We will descend to XXXX and then cancel flight following" isn't really necessary, but I sometimes want to when they've needed to give me a tour of some lovely place, 20 miles off course.

"Negative, just stay with me and I'll have direct for you in X miles."

LOL. Controllers want to control. I can't blame em. It's what they do. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Depends. They have a plan for you from the outset and may be limited by LoA or other rules you can't see. And no, pilots do NOT always have the same view on their traffic system the controller sees. So your "helpful idea" may just be radio blather they don't need. Or it might actually be helpful.

I definitely wouldn't add wording like "it might be more efficient" to an idea transmission like that. I'd just say, "we could accept a heading of XXX to intercept early if that helps" -- they already have the picture and know what will work and what won't, and have been doing their job a lot longer than I have!
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I think you might have missed Let'sgoflying!'s sarcasm. I'd be willing to bet that 99% of 'helpful' pilots are doing more harm than good.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I am pretty sure atc is grateful and appreciative when pilots 'help' them with their arduous task of moving and spacing aircraft. You know, pilot has ads-b or tcas and can see the 'exact same thing' as on the controller's scope. So he notices a 'better way' of working the flow, eg: "Approach, why don't you let me turn in now, and go ahead of that slower twin on the 15mi final, it might be a lot more efficient". Thoughtful and helpful, right?
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Um, no. You might get a "why don't you just fly your airplane let me worry about the pattern." answer.

I've done a LOT of training over the past 23 years as a controller. When a pilot "controls" himself or the pattern with suggestions (some of them good ideas) the trainee gets told "you may as well unplug if you're going to let the pilots make their own sequence."
 
Well....don't ever do that again! :mad:

;) <---closest smiley we have to indicate sarcasm. We need a straight-faced smiley.
 
Straight-faced smiley? Is this another Oxymoron thread?
 
They're ALL smilies as per the little red box. Even the mad guy is a smiley.
 
Most of this applies to the big boys and not so much GA...

-When you are rattling off clearances without any dead air on the frequency during a busy arrival push and someone takes 20 seconds to slowly read-back everything with pauses in between each word.
-When the 30 previous planes in the same spot at the same altitude report the field in sight but this particular plane "is looking", and everyone after them reports it immediately.
-When every other plane complies with the speed you're giving and everyone else on the freq realizes you are giving appropriate slowing to the marker in a line up and you get the one that takes time to ask to slow, "unable unless you need a vector off the final for re-sequencing"..."ah we're okay".

With my minor rants over, 99+% of pilots do a great job in my opinion and those GA that are obviously struggling for whatever reason, I always slow things down and help out in any way possible.
 
Heard a Comair pilot ***** about a speed assignment going into KATL once. Capt says to arrival "do you know what speed this plane stalls at?", controller comes right back and says "no but your FO probably does". Classic.
 
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mscard88 said:
Heard a Comair pilot ***** about a speed assignment going into KATL once. Capt says to arrival "do you know what this plane stalls at?", controller comes right back and says "no but your FO probably does". Classic.
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I had a beauty a few years back. We'd just gotten rid of speed reductions in the STARS 2 weeks prior. traffic is just now starting to build so im busy....ish about to get very busy soon, just not yet.

Airliner x (airbus) was slowed to 250 at 11,000 at the boundary by center. Normal check in except pilot requests centers and my number. Get back to you sir. Make some transmissions then airliner x reduced speed to 210. CA erupts. What are we following? A TBM 8 ahead. Pause....


CA we can beat him in
Me (im losing my normal relaxed attitude) ok fine maintain 10,000 and 550 knots and expect that till a 5 mile final.
CA I can't do that
Me Roger expect to follow the TBM.
CA turn him out
Me hes a medevac turn right (away from the airport) x degrees right youre going to be following a 737 now advise when ready to copy the numbers as requested
CA Its ok. Why is there so much traffic here anyway?
Me world series game 7...
 
Timbeck2 said:
You might get a "why don't you just fly your airplane let me worry about the pattern." answer.
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This just happened at LGA last night, and I immediately thought of your post from awhile back. LGA ground was getting busy with both inbounds and outbounds, and Endeavor gummed up the works by having to do a cross bleed start. There were several of us waiting on him to taxi out of the way once he was done. And sure enough, some whiny ass pilot had to make himself heard (he only gave his flight number, so I dunno what airline). In typical New Yorker fashion, the ground controller had a great response. You can hear it here:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/klga/KLGA-Gnd-Dec-14-2016-2200Z.mp3

Scroll to 15:20 to hear the good stuff (although the situation had been brewing for a bit). In the long pause after the first exchange, I wanted to key up with a "Waaaaaaaah!", but decided against it. After the second pilot chimed in the controller finally had enough. Friggin' Awesome. :)
 
roncachamp said:
Methinks you meant 250.
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Methinks you don't understand not so subtle hints.

Try not being super pedantic. Allow me to elaborate further. 550 may not have been the speed required to build a hole in front of the LN and fit the slot in front, however any speed required to do so would have been unachievable to fly to a 5 mile final. Maybe 323 knots was required, the end result is the same and no im not type rated in an a319, but I didn't have the time or will to produce the POH or place a phone call to Toulouse.

Dont let the meaning and intent get in the way of factiods to nit pick. I'll help you out with another pedantic nit pick, 550 in the bravo is a violation of the FARS that im not authorised to wave.

I imagine you don't deal well with sarcasm either.
 
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Radar Contact said:
-When the 30 previous planes in the same spot at the same altitude report the field in sight but this particular plane "is looking", and everyone after them reports it immediately.
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I've seen conditions in haze and/or low sun angles where folks are just flat lying to you guys that they see jack... haha...

They're just keeping your flow going and following the magenta line until they DO see the airport. Haha. They'll lie through their teeth not to annoy you. :)
 
denverpilot said:
I've seen conditions in haze and/or low sun angles where folks are just flat lying to you guys that they see jack... haha...

They're just keeping your flow going and following the magenta line until they DO see the airport. Haha. They'll lie through their teeth not to annoy you. :)
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I know they do sometimes (and I'm thankful). ;)

I'm also cognizant of the setting sun and/or changing wx conditions. There, for whatever reason, happens to be a certain group that can't quite see an airport as well as all the others but I'm not going to blast anyone on here. Unfortunately the rules required to make airports with multiple parallel runways legal require the out boards to be on visual's to run efficiently at max capacity. Triple simultaneous ILS's have long downwinds and the final controller has to switch frequencies to a final monitor early so fine tuning the final is lost.

Blah, blah, blah, more than you guys care to hear I'm sure. Your point is valid.
 
Radar Contact said:
I know they do sometimes (and I'm thankful). ;)

I'm also cognizant of the setting sun and/or changing wx conditions. There, for whatever reason, happens to be a certain group that can't quite see an airport as well as all the others but I'm not going to blast anyone on here. Unfortunately the rules required to make airports with multiple parallel runways legal require the out boards to be on visual's to run efficiently at max capacity. Triple simultaneous ILS's have long downwinds and the final controller has to switch frequencies to a final monitor early so fine tuning the final is lost.

Blah, blah, blah, more than you guys care to hear I'm sure. Your point is valid.
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On the contrary, hearing the inside ATC stuff is interesting!
 
Timbeck2 said:
Um, no. You might get a "why don't you just fly your airplane let me worry about the pattern." answer.

I've done a LOT of training over the past 23 years as a controller. When a pilot "controls" himself or the pattern with suggestions (some of them good ideas) the trainee gets told "you may as well unplug if you're going to let the pilots make their own sequence."
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In the past I would ask the controller if they wanted me to extend my down wind to let a faster plane land. I don't do that know, I figure they (the controller) have a plan and no sense cluttering the radio. In the summer when Juneau is real busy I will ask for a "short approach / long landing" to get on and off the runway as soon as possible...
 
denverpilot said:
I've seen conditions in haze and/or low sun angles where folks are just flat lying to you guys that they see jack... haha...

They're just keeping your flow going and following the magenta line until they DO see the airport. Haha. They'll lie through their teeth not to annoy you. :)
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After twenty-five years of flying out of a small urban airport that's hard to see from a distance even when it's severe clear, I've finally come to the conclusion that I might as well call it in sight as soon as I can positively identify its immediate neighborhood.
 
Approach_controller said:
Methinks you don't understand not so subtle hints.

Try not being super pedantic. Allow me to elaborate further. 550 may not have been the speed required to build a hole in front of the LN and fit the slot in front, however any speed required to do so would have been unachievable to fly to a 5 mile final. Maybe 323 knots was required, the end result is the same and no im not type rated in an a319, but I didn't have the time or will to produce the POH or place a phone call to Toulouse.

Dont let the meaning and intent get in the way of factiods to nit pick. I'll help you out with another pedantic nit pick, 550 in the bravo is a violation of the FARS that im not authorised to wave.

I imagine you don't deal well with sarcasm either.
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I get it now, you were being unprofessional.
 
Palmpilot said:
After twenty-five years of flying out of a small urban airport that's hard to see from a distance even when it's severe clear, I've finally come to the conclusion that I might as well call it in sight as soon as I can positively identify its immediate neighborhood.
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Spotting the airfield is tough from across the bay at twilight, but spotting several distinctive nearby landmarks, especially the amphitheater, is considerably easier. I'll call the field in sight if I can positively identify landmarks around it under VFR. IFR, the field is much easier to spot from the IAP, especially if the REIL and beacon are lit.

For Reid, it's a lot easier to spot the lake than the field, but most of us just follow highways in, as they form the SJC Class C boundary.
 
Hmm thought this was supposed to be controller's pet peeves....
 
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