New to the forum here but got a burning question to ask. Please reference the KFAR loc or ILS 18 approach plate. The other day I was getting vectors for the approach. And the controller said, " tail# 14 miles from kenie cleared for the localizer rwy 18" we were at 4000 MSL it was a training flight so we were doing the non-precision approach. My question is when could I have descended down to 2500 MSL? The approach plate only gives that altitude within 1 minute of Kenie. I know it represents the 1 min holding pattern there. But that far out I wasn't sure if it would be okay to descend to 2500. I interpret that like the remain w/in 10nm on other approaches. If I'm cleared for the approach within 10 NM I can descend to the altitude. However, in this case that is not charted. Would I just start my descent when I felt I was 1 min from kenie? Seems like that would be a steep descent rate for a minutes time. I verified with the controller if I could descend to 2500 and he said I could but was wondering if there was something I missed in my IFR training. Thank you for your time.
Cleared for the approach
- Thread starter Iflythe72
- Start date
-
- Tags
- ifr training
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Technically, since I don't see any NoPT routes for this approach, I'd say when you're outbound in the procedure turn hold.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Did you leave out any other information?
Shawn
En-Route
Absent vectors that would descend you to 2500 and straight in prior, the PT would be necessary as it is a descending hold that would get you down from 4000' to 2500'.
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,180
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
Was this a practice approach under VFR?
It was on an IFR flight plan
You maintain your last altitude assignment until you're established on the approach course. If your last altitude assignment was 4000, you should query the controller, because normally on a vector they give you an appropriate altitude to maintain until intercepting the approach course.
Right, if I wanted the approach to start at kenie I would be expected to do the pt and descend in the hold. Unless I got cleared straight in approach.
That's why I asked the controller. Wasn't sure if I was forgetting something. Thanks.
Shawn
En-Route
If your last altitude was 4000 and yet you got cleared straight in...those two instructions would be at odds and would warrant a query to ATC.
Right, would've been a different situation and most likely handled differently by ATC. Or I'd hope so at least.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
If what you said is the whole story then that is an illegal approach clearance. If you are not established on a published route containing altitude information they are required to give you an altitude to maintain until established on a published route with an altitude. If they don't, you are required to maintain your last assigned until established. I kinda wonder if you were really being vectored when you got the clearance. Did you happen to have been vectored to join the GFK 156r and then got the clearance?
No, we were already established on the localizer when we got the clearance. Initially, we got a turn and descent to 4000 and reported established flying inbound a few minutes later. Next transmission was "tail#, 14 miles from the final approach fix cleared for the approach." At this point I questioned ATC if I could descend to 2500 or if they wanted us to stay at 4000.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
my guess is they were just going to get you a little closer and then give the descent clearance. At more than 10 miles from the FAF, you probably just jumped the gun a little bit.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
The one minute hold has nothing to do with your vectored approach. Intercept and then down to 2500. The controller was utilizing a minimum vectoring altitude for the area not published on the chart.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...al_products/mva_mia/pdf/FAR_MVA_FUS5_2015.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...al_products/mva_mia/pdf/FAR_MVA_FUS5_2015.pdf
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,626
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
The whole "established" part would have been important to add in your initial description.
Since you're established on the localizer, no, the controller won't issue an altitude to maintain. Yes, you can descend on the approach.
Does that go for any approach? If you're established inbound, an altitude for a holding fix doesn't apply? Like the RNAV 18 in KFAR. If I was getting vectors for the approach and was established inbound and cleared the 3500 wouldn't apply even if I was prior to Mulee? I could be prior to that fix and just go down to 2600?
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,180
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
Just because he was established on the localizer does not mean he was established on a published segment of the approach. He wasn't. So how is he supposed to determine the correct altitude?
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,626
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Correct, I thought he was between the IAF and the FAF. In this case he isn't on a segment of the approach, a crossing altitude should have been given at KENIE. Preferably at or above 2,500 ft.
Thanks for the responses, sounds like the controller just left out an altitude clearance or was waiting until I got a little bit closer than 14nm's out.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,626
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Yeah, I'm sure they meant to allow you to descend on the LOC, but without the crossing restriction, its best just to ask.
It's always good to be careful about our assumptions about altitude, especially when intercepting final outside published approach segments. I think it was somewhere near Washington, DC that an airliner had a premature meeting with terra firma due to making the wrong assumption in that type of situation, resulting in some procedural changes in how approach clearances are stated, IIRC.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good job. Questioning is exactly what you should have done
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
TWA514.
It wasn't on a segment or published portion of the approach. If you reference the approach plate you might get a better idea of the scenario.
champ driver
Line Up and Wait
OK, here's a few things to think about.
Look at the MSA sector, it's 4200' NW of the LOC and 2700" on the NE side. You and I both know there's no terrain around Fargo, so it has to be towers. But in reality it really doesn't matter which it is.
The holding pattern is one minute legs. Not all planes fly it at the same speed, a jet may fly it at 180 kts, that stretches it out to over 3 miles from the fix. So there's some latitude in distance for protection. But that distance doesn't go on forever either. You were out 14 nm from Kenie, were you protected at 2500' at that distance? What if you were at 16, or 18 from Kenie?
The controller has his minimum vectoring altitude, so he knew you were safe, but you don't have his chart at hand, so how do you know you're safe?
There has to be some limit from the fix, and off hand right now I don't remember what that is, for some reason I think it might normally be 10 nm.
Yes, I believe there was a slightly abbreviated clearance from the tower. Not getting a "maintain so and so altitude until established" clearance, I would have planned to start a normal descent so to arrive within the holding pattern airspace at 2500', but not before then. You have to be "established" and on a published segment to be at 2500', there is a limit to the distance of the published segment.
Look at the MSA sector, it's 4200' NW of the LOC and 2700" on the NE side. You and I both know there's no terrain around Fargo, so it has to be towers. But in reality it really doesn't matter which it is.
The holding pattern is one minute legs. Not all planes fly it at the same speed, a jet may fly it at 180 kts, that stretches it out to over 3 miles from the fix. So there's some latitude in distance for protection. But that distance doesn't go on forever either. You were out 14 nm from Kenie, were you protected at 2500' at that distance? What if you were at 16, or 18 from Kenie?
The controller has his minimum vectoring altitude, so he knew you were safe, but you don't have his chart at hand, so how do you know you're safe?
There has to be some limit from the fix, and off hand right now I don't remember what that is, for some reason I think it might normally be 10 nm.
Yes, I believe there was a slightly abbreviated clearance from the tower. Not getting a "maintain so and so altitude until established" clearance, I would have planned to start a normal descent so to arrive within the holding pattern airspace at 2500', but not before then. You have to be "established" and on a published segment to be at 2500', there is a limit to the distance of the published segment.
Last edited:
roncachamp
Final Approach
He was already established on the localizer when the approach clearance was issued. "Maintain so and so altitude until established" is rather meaningless in that case. Had I been the controller, assuming the MVA in that area is 2500 MSL or lower, the clearance would have been "Tail#, 14 miles from KENIE, cross KENIE at or above 2500, cleared localizer runway 18 approach."
whattauser
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2016
- Messages
- 147
- Display Name
Display name:
Whattauser
The hold segment is a published portion of the approach and includes the final approach course outside the hold fix. If you are within the hold protected airspace with a clearance and on the final approach course, you may descent to the altitude published for that segment.
champ driver
Line Up and Wait
In my meager attempt to communicate a question in my other post, and I think the OP was asking it too, I'll ask it more directly.
I was asking how far out is he protected from terrain at 2500' on the LOC?
He was 14 from Kenie, which put him 18.6 from the LOC, just beyond the 18 miles of reliable reception for a LOC. Is that still considered "on a segment"?
I was asking how far out is he protected from terrain at 2500' on the LOC?
He was 14 from Kenie, which put him 18.6 from the LOC, just beyond the 18 miles of reliable reception for a LOC. Is that still considered "on a segment"?
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yes, he was on a segment.
(i) Operations on unpublished routes and use of radar in instrument approach procedures. When radar is approved at certain locations for ATC purposes, it may be used not only for surveillance and precision radar approaches, as applicable, but also may be used in conjunction with instrument approach procedures predicated on other types of radio navigational aids. Radar vectors may be authorized to provide course guidance through the segments of an approach to the final course or fix. When operating on an unpublished route or while being radar vectored, the pilot, when an approach clearance is received, shall, in addition to complying with §91.177, maintain the last altitude assigned to that pilot until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. Upon reaching the final approach course or fix, the pilot may either complete the instrument approach in accordance with a procedure approved for the facility or continue a surveillance or precision radar approach to a landing.
(i) Operations on unpublished routes and use of radar in instrument approach procedures. When radar is approved at certain locations for ATC purposes, it may be used not only for surveillance and precision radar approaches, as applicable, but also may be used in conjunction with instrument approach procedures predicated on other types of radio navigational aids. Radar vectors may be authorized to provide course guidance through the segments of an approach to the final course or fix. When operating on an unpublished route or while being radar vectored, the pilot, when an approach clearance is received, shall, in addition to complying with §91.177, maintain the last altitude assigned to that pilot until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. Upon reaching the final approach course or fix, the pilot may either complete the instrument approach in accordance with a procedure approved for the facility or continue a surveillance or precision radar approach to a landing.
Last edited:
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,180
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
Segment of what?
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Segment of the ILS/LOC 18.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,626
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
No, he wasn't on a segment of the IAP or a published route. He was only established on the LOC. He was beyond the IAF so therefore the controller should have issued an altitude to maintain until established on a segment of the approach. In this case, "at or above 2,500 until KENIE."
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,180
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
Which segment?
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Initial.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
If he wasn't on a segment, where did you obtain the 2500 altitude for his position from? If outside Keene is not a segment, 2500 is invalid without a MVA. If a 2500 MVA is valid, an instruction to maintain is redundant.
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,180
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
The initial approach segment begins at the initial approach fix, not 14 miles before it.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Then you have been violating the regs on about every approach you have done with a vector to final because you descend before the IAF.