Cleared for the approach

Clip4 said:
Then you have been violating the regs on about every approach you have done with a vector to final because you descend before the IAF.
Click to expand...

A vector which includes an altitude assignment at or above the minimum vectoring altitude. This is not part of the published approach.
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
Then you have been violating the regs on about every approach you have done with a vector to final because you descend before the IAF.
Click to expand...
Apples and oranges. On a segment of an approach, once the pilot has received an approach clearance, he is authorized to descend on his own initiative to the published minimum altitude for that segment. On a vector, the pilot must fly the altitude that has been assigned by ATC, per 91.123, until he is cleared for the approach and is established on a segment of the approach.
 
Palmpilot said:
What makes you think so?
Click to expand...

Because 2500 is also the published altitude for initial segment for the approach, just like any other approach where a procedure turn is published. You guys are getting all twisted because the approach has a hold in lieu of a PT.

I suppose it is possible that the controller got lazy on a VMC day and issued the the clearance improperly, but I think not.
 
Clip4 said:
Because 2500 is also the published altitude for initial segment for the approach, just like any other approach where a procedure turn is published. You guys are getting all twisted because the approach has a hold in lieu of a PT.

I suppose it is possible that the controller got lazy on a VMC day and issued the the clearance improperly, but I think not.
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with the HILPT. If the OP was sent direct the HILPT we've have a different conversation but he wasn't.

He's established on the LOC outside of a segment. The controller is REQUIRED to issue an altitude to maintain until established on a segment of the approach. Most likely, the altitude assigned will be the same as the IAF (KENIE). Could be considered redundant but doesn't remove the requirement from the controller to issue it.
 
No, the initial segment stated at the IAF and extended north. The hold was the airspace provided for a PT.
 
In order to be established on the initial segment, wouldn't you have to be established in the hold?
 
TommyG said:
As soon as they cleared you for the approach you could have started to the minimum altitude for that segment.
Click to expand...
This is not accurate because it assumes that the clearance for the approach only occurs after you are established on a segment of the approach. They can clear you before that, in which case you maintain your assigned altitude until you get to a published segment.

95.175(I) provided in part:

When operating on an unpublished route or while being radar vectored, the pilot, when an approach clearance is received, shall, in addition to complying with Sec. 91.177, maintain the last altitude assigned to that pilot until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. Upon reaching the final approach course or fix, the pilot may either complete the instrument approach in accordance with a procedure approved for the facility or continue a surveillance or precision radar approach to a landing.
​
The controller can (and seems that he did) clear the aircraft for the approach outside of the protected space for this approach. I think the OP did exactly the right thing in requesting lower before descending, and showed good awareness to realize that he was going to be high if he tried to descend after the FAF on this vector to final.
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
No, the initial segment stated at the IAF and extended north. The hold was the airspace provided for a PT.
Click to expand...
I think this confuses merely being within the protect space with being on a segment of the published route or approach procedure. But the procedure doesn't start until you hit the IAF. I agree that once you get close enough to the IAF that you are within the protect space, it would be safe to descend as far as ground obstacles go. But that doesn't mean that you are cleared to descend. I am not sure what all of the ATC rules are, but it seems possible that ATC may have traffic below that would conflict if you just automatically descend without express clearance to do so.
 
Clip4 said:
If 2500 and 14 miles is an altitude a controller can authorize, yes.
Click to expand...
A controller can authorize any altitude at or above the MVA, whether you're on a segment of an approach or not, so the former does not imply the latter.
 
The holding pattern is specified as 1-minute. Max holding speed is 200KIAS below 6,000'. 1-minute at 200KIAS is 3-1/3nm.

Of course, the easiest solution is to 'request 2,500' until established' when the altitude to maintain is omitted from the approach clearance.
 
Maybe the OP should call the folks at FAR approach and see what they tell him.
 
Clip4 said:
If 2500 and 14 miles is an altitude a controller can authorize, yes.
Click to expand...
Yup. But he can't just say "cleared for the approach." He must include the altitude with the clearance and have it apply until KENIE.
 
PPC1052 said:
I think this confuses merely being within the protect space with being on a segment of the published route or approach procedure. But the procedure doesn't start until you hit the IAF. I agree that once you get close enough to the IAF that you are within the protect space, it would be safe to descend as far as ground obstacles go. But that doesn't mean that you are cleared to descend. I am not sure what all of the ATC rules are, but it seems possible that ATC may have traffic below that would conflict if you just automatically descend without express clearance to do so.
Click to expand...
The controllers rules are an altitude to maintain until KENIE must be given. The inbound leg of a PT or HILPT doesn't count as a "segement." It gets done though. If you're within 10 miles on a "remain within 10 miles" PT it's kinda a no harm no foul thing. An HILPT with DME legs is a no brainer. Doing a quick calculation of how far out 1 minute is on a one minute HILPT isn't to difficult. But the rule is an altitude to maintain until a "segement" is required.
 
Velocity173 said:
The whole "established" part would have been important to add in your initial description.

Since you're established on the localizer, no, the controller won't issue an altitude to maintain. Yes, you can descend on the approach.
Click to expand...
Established on the localizer "beyond" published segements of the Approach doesn't allow just saying cleared for the Approach.
 
TommyG said:
As soon as they cleared you for the approach you could have started to the minimum altitude for that segment.
Click to expand...
Yeah. But he was not on a segement. He was established on the localizer "beyond" published segements
 
luvflyin said:
Established on the localizer "beyond" published segements of the Approach doesn't allow just saying cleared for the Approach.
Click to expand...

Yes, as I said above.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top