Clearance

izzydogg

izzydogg

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Display name:
izzydogg
Scenario....It's severe clear and you are on the ground ready to depart. Would you receive your clearance on the ground, or in the air after departure?
Thx,
Iz
 
Depends. Generally, I'd ask for it on the ground if that's an option. If I was worried about getting a long ground delay due to competition for IFR departure slots, I might get up and ask for it en route.

If it's really severe clear and I'm worried about a long ground delay, I might not file IFR to begin with. If destination weather is iffy, there's always the option to file with FSS en route or ask ATC for a pop-up.
 
Depends. If I am at an airport with CD then I will probably just call them. If I am at a county airport and ground radio is not a great option, get it in the air.
 
flyingmoose said:
Depends. If I am at an airport with CD then I will probably just call them. If I am at a county airport and ground radio is not a great option, get it in the air.
Click to expand...

+1 which ever is fastest.
 
Yup, "depends". Mostly on how convenient is it to pick it up on the ground and what's the overlaying airspace. Generally speaking if I'm departing someplace with good radar coverage that can handle multiple IFRs in the terminal area or even some little airport situated under the class "B" overhang I'll pick it up on the ground if possible. OTOH, out in the boondocks in a non-radar enviroment where it's "one-in/one out" it's likely handier to just depart VFR and pick it up airborne.
 
Inside the SFRA, I'd call first :)

If it were easy to get the clearance on the ground, I'd get it. Otherwise in the air.
Easy means either direct to ATC radio link (CD, ground control, RCO or just being able to raise the approach/center frequency not the ground, but not one of those blasted GCOs) or by cell phone call to the ATC facility (rather than Flight Circus).
 
My rule on this is never depart VFR unless I'm reasonably certain I can safely complete the flight under VFR. So, if I'm filing IFR solely for convenience, and not for either weather, airspace, security, or ATC considerations, then I might launch VFR if there's going to be a significant delay waiting for my clearance on the ground. Other than that, I'll get it on the ground. And for an example of how badly it can go wrong if you get impatient and launch VFR to pick up your IFR in the air, read this.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Question the OP asked specified "severe clear".
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Even in "severe clear", other factors such as airspace or TFR's could box you in, and the fact that it's "severe clear" at your departure point doesn't guarantee it's "severe clear" for the entire planned flight. If you're going to do this, make darn sure you have a Plan B, and maybe Plans C and D, too.
 
Allow me to give further info which prompted my question. This was my first flight after my checkride. I want to fly in the system as much as possible to become comfortable with communications. During training I never picked up my clearance in the air. The scenarios were always pretending that I was launching with low ceilings. The mission for this flight was to get my clearance to a nearby airport and canx a few miles out. Then I planned on flying a couple approaches without the hood "obviously" to get a feel for the power settings on the 182 as I've been flying our 172. When clearance delivery asked if I wanted to pick up my clearance in the air I declined because of the extra workload of writing it down while flying, the fact that I haven't flown the 182 for a couple months and the arrival airport was a short 16 minute flight. So I think I made the right decision for the situation. But it did raise the question of if it is exceptable to get it in air to save some Hobbs time if your departing with severe clear on a longer flight.
Thx for the replies thus far, I learn so much following this forum!!!!
Iz
 
izzydogg said:
But it did raise the question of if it is exceptable to get it in air to save some Hobbs time if your departing with severe clear on a longer flight.
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That's fine, when I'm departing a particular airport where they would like you to get your clearance on the phone (TRACON) and ready to depart immediately, it's easier if the weather allows to get it in the air just because of the hassle of trying to hear with the engine running.
 
izzydogg said:
Allow me to give further info which prompted my question. This was my first flight after my checkride. I want to fly in the system as much as possible to become comfortable with communications. During training I never picked up my clearance in the air.
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That's a failing on your instructor's part. All my IR trainees get to pick up IFR clearances on the ground at both towered and non-towered airports as well as in the air, and we simulate that if we're not flying IFR on any one training flight.

The scenarios were always pretending that I was launching with low ceilings. The mission for this flight was to get my clearance to a nearby airport and canx a few miles out. Then I planned on flying a couple approaches without the hood "obviously" to get a feel for the power settings on the 182 as I've been flying our 172. When clearance delivery asked if I wanted to pick up my clearance in the air I declined because of the extra workload of writing it down while flying, the fact that I haven't flown the 182 for a couple months and the arrival airport was a short 16 minute flight. So I think I made the right decision for the situation.
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I agree.

But it did raise the question of if it is exceptable to get it in air to save some Hobbs time if your departing with severe clear on a longer flight.
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I'm sure there are situations where that is fine as long as you have good options if for any reason you can't pick it up once airborne.
 
Ron Levy said:
My rule on this is never depart VFR unless I'm reasonably certain I can safely complete the flight under VFR. So, if I'm filing IFR solely for convenience, and not for either weather, airspace, security, or ATC considerations, then I might launch VFR if there's going to be a significant delay waiting for my clearance on the ground. Other than that, I'll get it on the ground. And for an example of how badly it can go wrong if you get impatient and launch VFR to pick up your IFR in the air, read this.
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Really? You plan to depart ARB with SKC and unlimited vis headed to JAX, and there's a wall of non-convective stuff from DFW to ATL to BWI about 50 miles deep, and you won't leave ARB VFR until you get an IFR clearance?

Wow.
 
cirrusmx said:
in those conditions, launch vfr and then open on the air or even continue vfr.
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The wall is above the service ceiling of said aircraft, and under isn't an option due to terrain, so at some point IFR will be required. I will absolutely launch VFR and pick it up enroute. In 3.5-4.0 hours, I find it impossible that they can't work me in.
 
EdFred said:
Really? You plan to depart ARB with SKC and unlimited vis headed to JAX, and there's a wall of non-convective stuff from DFW to ATL to BWI about 50 miles deep, and you won't leave ARB VFR until you get an IFR clearance?
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Not unless I'm prepared to land short of that weather and pick up my clearance on the ground at that location short of where I want to go. Since in my Tiger I would need to land partway for fuel anyway (710 nm is a bit far for my Tiger's fuel tanks, not to mention my bladder), it's no big deal coming out of A-squared, but for the second leg into that weather? Not launching without the clearance.
 
EdFred said:
The wall is above the service ceiling of said aircraft, and under isn't an option due to terrain, so at some point IFR will be required. I will absolutely launch VFR and pick it up enroute. In 3.5-4.0 hours, I find it impossible that they can't work me in.
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I've seen it happen. Like I said, if you're willing to have to land short of your destination due to weather and inability to get a clearance, be my guest. If not, wait on the ground for your clearance.
 
flyingron said:
Inside the SFRA, I'd call first :)

If it were easy to get the clearance on the ground, I'd get it. Otherwise in the air.
Easy means either direct to ATC radio link (CD, ground control, RCO or just being able to raise the approach/center frequency not the ground, but not one of those blasted GCOs) or by cell phone call to the ATC facility (rather than Flight Circus).
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I fly out of the FRZ, inside the SFRA, and I don't pick up my IFR clearance until I am in the air!

Of course I do talk to Potomac before leaving for my squawk code and routing.

izzydogg said:
Allow me to give further info which prompted my question. This was my first flight after my checkride. I want to fly in the system as much as possible to become comfortable with communications. During training I never picked up my clearance in the air. The scenarios were always pretending that I was launching with low ceilings. The mission for this flight was to get my clearance to a nearby airport and canx a few miles out. Then I planned on flying a couple approaches without the hood "obviously" to get a feel for the power settings on the 182 as I've been flying our 172. When clearance delivery asked if I wanted to pick up my clearance in the air I declined because of the extra workload of writing it down while flying, the fact that I haven't flown the 182 for a couple months and the arrival airport was a short 16 minute flight. So I think I made the right decision for the situation. But it did raise the question of if it is exceptable to get it in air to save some Hobbs time if your departing with severe clear on a longer flight.
Thx for the replies thus far, I learn so much following this forum!!!!
Iz
Click to expand...

Picking up airborne is often a good alternative, particularily at a busy VFR airport where you're not pressured to pull out onto the runway to outrun a void time. It's often easier for the controller as he doesn't have to carve out a bunch of airspace for you for your release. You could also save yourself a bunch of time if you have to wait for IFR arrivals to your non-towered field.
 
Practically all of my flying is for travel, I own the plane and I file and fly just about every leg IFR.

Assuming I can get the clearance on the ground using the radio, I get the clearance on the ground. If I'm in so much of a hurry that getting it on the ground is a hassle, I try to slap myself in the head, slow down, and stick with SOP. I might think differently if I had a Hobbs running but otherwise I look at the 'traveling in an airplane' task as one that benefits from SOPs and not hurrying.... and flying the fastest airplane I can afford and handle.
 
Bill Watson said:
Practically all of my flying is for travel, I own the plane and I file and fly just about every leg IFR.

Assuming I can get the clearance on the ground using the radio, I get the clearance on the ground. If I'm in so much of a hurry that getting it on the ground is a hassle, I try to slap myself in the head, slow down, and stick with SOP. I might think differently if I had a Hobbs running but otherwise I look at the 'traveling in an airplane' task as one that benefits from SOPs and not hurrying.... and flying the fastest airplane I can afford and handle.
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What about if you can't get a clearance by radio but you have a direct number to a CD via cell? (If you have a bluetooth headset connection it's no biggie, but suppose you don't?)
 
azure said:
What about if you can't get a clearance by radio but you have a direct number to a CD via cell?
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That's how it goes at the majority of nontowered airports, and it works fine. Beats the heck out of the old days when you had to call on the pay phone, then run to the plane, hop in, start, do the checks, and get in the air within the void time limit.

(If you have a bluetooth headset connection it's no biggie, but suppose you don't?)
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Then you either take off the headset or stick the phone under the earcup. Either way, it works reasonably well.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's how it goes at the majority of nontowered airports, and it works fine. Beats the heck out of the old days when you had to call on the pay phone, then run to the plane, hop in, start, do the checks, and get in the air within the void time limit.
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Yes, that's how it works at my home field.

Then you either take off the headset or stick the phone under the earcup. Either way, it works reasonably well.
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Your headset must have remarkably huge earcups then. Mine won't fit under the cup, not well enough to block out the engine noise anyway (iPhone, DC standard model, I forget the P/N). If I take off the headset and try to use the phone with the engine running, I *might* be able to hear ATC but there is no way they'll be able to understand me over the noise. The only solution is to shut down. If my engine is hot and I shut down, there's a risk of needing 15-20 minutes to restart (fuel injected), and even best case I need at least 3-4 minutes to go through all the avionics self-tests before I can enter the flight plan. And I DO do that, if I'm taking off in conditions where I'm going to need the clearance right away. If not, and there's doubt as to whether and when I will really need it, I take off VFR. Yes, they might not be able to work me in in short order. But since I'm VFR, I can always land somewhere if necessary, refile if necessary, and call for the clearance. I really don't understand why anyone would be afraid to take off VFR into severe clear conditions just because they MIGHT later on have to land to continue IFR. Maybe on the east coast things are different, but it would be VERY unusual here for ATC to be unable to accommodate an air pickup within (at most) 10-15 minutes. Usually MUCH sooner than that.
 
azure said:
Your headset must have remarkably huge earcups then. Mine won't fit under the cup, not well enough to block out the engine noise anyway (iPhone, DC standard model, I forget the P/N).
Click to expand...

If you don't have a newer headset with cell phone input (and I don't), I've read that the wired headsets with the mic inline on the wire actually work well. You put the earbud in one ear as normally worn, and tuck the mic inside the earcup on the same side. Only one wire comes out under the seal. Your intercom sidetone to the earcup is picked up by the cell phone mic. YMMV.
 
azure said:
What about if you can't get a clearance by radio but you have a direct number to a CD via cell? (If you have a bluetooth headset connection it's no biggie, but suppose you don't?)
Click to expand...
My home base falls in that category. I have the bluetooth setup and all.

In VFR conditions I pick it up in the air. But it's my home base, I know roughly what the initial parts of my clearance will be so no problem

In IFR or low VFR, I call up and get a void time clearance at the run-up area. But I program the G430 and FF on the iPad before takeoff.

If I'm at an unfamiliar airport, untowered with no CD, and near highly trafficked or ATC intense airspace, even in severe clear, I'll pick it up on the ground. But think about all the qualifiers - that rarely happens.

Good question, made me think, Thanks.
 
azure said:
Yes, that's how it works at my home field.


Your headset must have remarkably huge earcups then. Mine won't fit under the cup, not well enough to block out the engine noise anyway (iPhone, DC standard model, I forget the P/N).
Click to expand...
If you are regularly flying IFR, need to pick up clearances by phone, and don't have/want a phone-to-headset interface, invest $5 for some earbuds with a microphone and keep it in your flight bag.
 
azure said:
Your headset must have remarkably huge earcups then. Mine won't fit under the cup, not well enough to block out the engine noise anyway (iPhone, DC standard model, I forget the P/N). If I take off the headset and try to use the phone with the engine running, I *might* be able to hear ATC but there is no way they'll be able to understand me over the noise.
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I've yet to be a modern light single (say, anything built in the last 50 years) where that was a significant problem at idle. But if it's really that bad in your plane, I strongly suggest upgrading to a top-of-the-line ANR headset with Bluetooth like a Lightspeed Zulu.2 or Bose A20.
 
I use a cell phone inside the ear cup each time I fly. Dial the number, put it just inside the ear cup and cup the mic with your hand. Works great even at idle in a noisy helicopter.
 
DJTorrente said:
If you don't have a newer headset with cell phone input (and I don't), I've read that the wired headsets with the mic inline on the wire actually work well. You put the earbud in one ear as normally worn, and tuck the mic inside the earcup on the same side. Only one wire comes out under the seal. Your intercom sidetone to the earcup is picked up by the cell phone mic. YMMV.
Click to expand...

This.

I've got a wired earpiece/mic for the phone that has a mute button for the mic. Works very well as described.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've yet to be a modern light single (say, anything built in the last 50 years) where that was a significant problem at idle. But if it's really that bad in your plane, I strongly suggest upgrading to a top-of-the-line ANR headset with Bluetooth like a Lightspeed Zulu.2 or Bose A20.
Click to expand...
Given that there are a bunch of headsets with phone interfaces (more than a few of which could be considered top of the line) and even a few secondary-market add-on interfaces, almost sounds like you're getting a kickback for mentioning only two of them.


:D:D:D:D

Former user of a Telex 50-D and current user of a DCPro-X
 
midlifeflyer said:
Given that there are a bunch of headsets with phone interfaces (more than a few of which could be considered top of the line) and even a few secondary-market add-on interfaces, almost sounds like you're getting a kickback for mentioning only two of them.


:D:D:D:D
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No kickbacks (and Lightspeed didn't cut me any special deal on my Zulu.2), just mentioning the two I know that I think are top-of-the-line and have Bluetooth.

Former user of a Telex 50-D and current user of a DCPro-X
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Haven't tried either, but happy to do so next time a client has one, and if I think it's as good as the two I mentioned, I'll mention it along with them in the future. :wink2:
 
DJTorrente said:
If you don't have a newer headset with cell phone input (and I don't), I've read that the wired headsets with the mic inline on the wire actually work well. You put the earbud in one ear as normally worn, and tuck the mic inside the earcup on the same side. Only one wire comes out under the seal. Your intercom sidetone to the earcup is picked up by the cell phone mic. YMMV.
Click to expand...
That might actually do the trick if I could find a bud with a mic and/or interface to the phone that has decent audio quality. Maybe I've just had rotten luck with earbuds. The last one I bought was something like $30 and it was completely useless, no one could understand what I was saying. Then 18 months ago I bought a car with a bluetooth setup, and I haven't tried using an earbud since.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/av/headsetx_adapters_cell_znon/cellphoneadapter.php

Get the Amplified model.
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That looks exactly like what my first CFII used. At first I really wanted to get one and planned to spring for it as soon as I passed my checkride. But I remember at least twice that we wasted at least 10 minutes (of MY money) while he jiggled the cables trying to get the thing to work. That cured me of that idea.

For the few times that I would REALLY need it (landed somewhere in Podunkville, hot engine, don't need fuel just a clearance), it doesn't seem like it's worth $157. For my solo proficiency flights, I'm okay with taxiing from the hangar to the runup pad and shutting down there to call CD... anyway the earbud solution is a lot cheaper if it works.
 
azure said:
That looks exactly like what my first CFII used. At first I really wanted to get one and planned to spring for it as soon as I passed my checkride. But I remember at least twice that we wasted at least 10 minutes (of MY money) while he jiggled the cables trying to get the thing to work. That cured me of that idea.
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Sounds like he must'a had a loose connection or maybe a faulty plug receptacle or something? Anyway, mine's been working fine. If you do decide to get one don't waste your money on the $90 standard model, I tried one of those first and I couldn't hear the cell phone over the sound of even the idling engine. The $157 amplified model is much more satisfactory in a typical GA single piston engine cockpit.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Azure- Why are you having such trouble with hot starts? I read about them during my study of a certain airframe but also learned that it could be technique as the culprit (POHs fail here).

Try this
http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9646-hot-starts-io-360-now-as-easy-as-cold-starts/
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Which technique? The one in #8 is what I use, and it usually works, but when it doesn't, I fall back to the POH hot start procedure, which more often than not leads to flooding. I have yet to find a flooded start procedure that works reliably.

This happened once at PAC in PTK (flooded), where after I gave up, the A&P-IA ATP old salt owner tried what he said was a sure-fire method. No joy. I ended up waiting the usual 45 minutes anyway.

I'd be willing to try the technique in #1, but as others in that thread said, I don't understand why it SHOULD make any difference to push and pull the throttle and mixture without doing anything else. Using the boost pump, as someone suggested, when there is already fuel vapor in the lines sounds likely to flood the engine. The crank while advancing the mixture technique in #12 sounds like it might be worth flying past an A&P.
 
azure said:
Which technique? The one in #8 is what I use, and it usually works, but when it doesn't, I fall back to the POH hot start procedure, which more often than not leads to flooding. I have yet to find a flooded start procedure that works reliably.

This happened once at PAC in PTK (flooded), where after I gave up, the A&P-IA ATP old salt owner tried what he said was a sure-fire method. No joy. I ended up waiting the usual 45 minutes anyway.

I'd be willing to try the technique in #1, but as others in that thread said, I don't understand why it SHOULD make any difference to push and pull the throttle and mixture without doing anything else. Using the boost pump, as someone suggested, when there is already fuel vapor in the lines sounds likely to flood the engine. The crank while advancing the mixture technique in #12 sounds like it might be worth flying past an A&P.
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My WAG is that by opening and rapidly closing the throttle body allows the gasses and vapor to depressurize the system in a manner that causes a vacuum of cooling air to be ingested into the intake plenum. If it works reliably, I have learned to become less concerned about WHY it works that the fact that it does. And yes, there is science in that.
 
azure said:
I'd be willing to try the technique in #1, but as others in that thread said, I don't understand why it SHOULD make any difference to push and pull the throttle and mixture without doing anything else.
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I agree completely. I'm no engine guru (not by a long shot) but I can't think of a single reason why it should work. And I'm a pretty strong proponent of using POH starting procedures.

Except that it does. I started flying a Mooney J last year. On my first cross country solo flight (a personal standard for new-to-me aircraft), it was a warm March day. I stopped for a quick lunch at the airport restaurant, and when I returned, could not start the airplane using the POH procedures. So I waited until it cooled off more.

On a later cross country flight, on a warmer day, but after the MooneySpace thread I returned to the airplane and figured, what the heck, and gave it a try. Started immediately on that flight.

And the next one... and the next one... and the...

Beats me.
 
Interesting. I'd really like to hear an explanation from an engineer or engine guru. I'm nowhere close to being an engine expert but I do teach physics, and usually prefer to have some idea of how something is supposed to work before trying it out. This sounds harmless enough though, so worth a try regardless.

midlifeflyer said:
I agree completely. I'm no engine guru (not by a long shot) but I can't think of a single reason why it should work. And I'm a pretty strong proponent of using POH starting procedures.

Except that it does. I started flying a Mooney J last year. On my first cross country solo flight (a personal standard for new-to-me aircraft), it was a warm March day. I stopped for a quick lunch at the airport restaurant, and when I returned, could not start the airplane using the POH procedures. So I waited until it cooled off more.

On a later cross country flight, on a warmer day, but after the MooneySpace thread I returned to the airplane and figured, what the heck, and gave it a try. Started immediately on that flight.

And the next one... and the next one... and the...

Beats me.
Click to expand...
 
azure said:
Interesting. I'd really like to hear an explanation from an engineer or engine guru. I'm nowhere close to being an engine expert but I do teach physics, and usually prefer to have some idea of how something is supposed to work before trying it out. This sounds harmless enough though, so worth a try regardless.
Click to expand...

That's unscientific:D
 
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