clearance limit

BigBadLou said:
Which leads me to ask: is there no FAA interpretation letter on this problem so far? (I am not good at Googling such stuff, I'll have somebody here do it for me :) )
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Every possible situation can't be anticipated and defined in the regulations. When the controller needs to give further instructions he will give them. There is nothing preventing that as there would be in a situation with a loss of communication.

Velocity173 said:
I'd say it's poor phraseology by not saying "cleared to" but I'd still call it a clearance limit.
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It is not a clearance limit; that remains the destination airport. Entering a hold at that fix in busy airspace is the last thing that a controller will be expecting or want. In most cases, you'll be turn right into the path of the aircraft that is behind you in the sequence for the approach.
 
I've had a few similar situations, and in some of them, when I finally got a word in edgewise, the controller said I should just turn at the fix onto the final approach course, without descending, until he clears me for the approach. I think some controllers expect that as default behavior, while others may not. Hard to know, so it's important to get their attention (a bit aggressively if need be) before getting to the fix.
 
Larry in TN said:
Every possible situation can't be anticipated and defined in the regulations. When the controller needs to give further instructions he will give them. There is nothing preventing that as there would be in a situation with a loss of communication.


It is not a clearance limit; that remains the destination airport. Entering a hold at that fix in busy airspace is the last thing that a controller will be expecting or want. In most cases, you'll be turn right into the path of the aircraft that is behind you in the sequence for the approach.
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An airport clearance limit doesn't give a pilot the authority to execute an IAP. You expect the OP to proceed inbound to CDW at 2,500? What then?
 
You know guys, you fly in a system. When the system breaks down you have to be PIC and do what you think is best. But I sure can't see where doing a 180 is the answer.
 
Velocity173 said:
An airport clearance limit doesn't give a pilot the authority to execute an IAP. You expect the OP to proceed inbound to CDW at 2,500? What then?
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My understanding of the expectations of some controllers (see my post above) is that in this case you'd fly to the airport at 2,500' and hold over it. Of course they'd very likely get to you long before that, hopefully in time to shoot the approach, but that's what they are thinking in case you go nordo. I am sure other controllers think very differently, however.
 
RotorDude said:
My understanding of the expectations of some controllers (see my post above) is that in this case you'd fly to the airport at 2,500' and hold over it. Of course they'd very likely get to you long before that, hopefully in time to shoot the approach, but that's what they are thinking in case you go nordo. I am sure other controllers think very differently, however.
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The problem is, in the OP's case, they left nothing after DOWDY. If we're calling it a route amendment then he should've gotten some sort of route after DOWDY. "Cleared direct DOWDY, track inbound on the localizer." Or "cleared direct DOWDY direct Essex County." Or "Cleared direct DOWDY, rest of route remains unchanged." In the absence of any instructions after the fix, I'm going to go with the paragraph I attached out of the .65. To me, that makes the most sense. You haven't gotten clearance for an approach and you haven't been issued a route beyond DOWDY.
 
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Velocity173 said:
The problem is, in the OP's case, they left nothing after DOWDY. If we're calling it a route amendment then he should've gotten some sort of route after DOWDY. "Cleared direct DOWDY, track inbound on the localizer." Or "cleared direct DOWDY direct Essex County." Or "Cleared direct DOWDY, rest of route remains unchanged. (If it was in his route)." In the absence of any instructions after the fix, I'm going to go with the paragraph I attached out of the .65. To me, that makes the most sense. You haven't gotten clearance for an approach and you haven't been issued a route beyond DOWDY.
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Except he was told to expect the localizer 22. He wasn't told to expect to hold for traffic or any other reason, and he was cleared to a fix on the approach he was told to expect.

Were it me, and the airspace was so busy that the controller wasn't able to give me the approach clearance prior to the fix and I couldn't get a clarification prior to it, I think it'd be much better for everyone involved if I did I was told to expect, and not surprise the controller by entering a hold when I was told to expect the approach.

If those are the two choices:

1) The approach is what I was told to expect AND gets me on the ground and out of everyone's way. If I can't get a word in edgewise, pull up Tower on #2 and verify nobody's in front of me on the approach and come on in. Done.

2) The hold is likely going to be a surprise to the controller AND is going to be putting me potentially in the way of the next airplane inbound, or someone going to another field, and is going to cause the controller to spend time he probably doesn't have issuing new instructions.

I think the better choice is pretty obvious here. Now, if I wasn't told to expect the approach and I was up at 4-5000 feet still where there might be someone below/in front of me on the approach (or already holding at the FAF), and if there was a significant amount of time remaining until my expected arrival time, then maybe I'd hold. But, none of that was the case here.
 
Not sure if this applies. I know the rule for when you are vectoring, but have not been clear for the approach you are supposed to stay on course and call ATC.

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Velocity173 said:
An airport clearance limit doesn't give a pilot the authority to execute an IAP. You expect the OP to proceed inbound to CDW at 2,500? What then?
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Gee, in the case of lost comm, 91.185 says it does. Why make this any more difficult that it is.

The only question now arises is "can't get a word in edgewise" constitutes lost comm. Frankly, I would suspect, especially with competent IFR pilots, that it rarely happens. If I''m barrelling down on the point I'd expect to be cleared for the approach, I'm going to be rattling the controller's cage rather than blasting through the IAF or whatever it is hoping that something fortuitous is going to happen.
 
flyingron said:
Gee, in the case of lost comm, 91.185 says it does. Why make this any more difficult that it is.

The only question now arises is "can't get a word in edgewise" constitutes lost comm. Frankly, I would suspect, especially with competent IFR pilots, that it rarely happens. If I''m barrelling down on the point I'd expect to be cleared for the approach, I'm going to be rattling the controller's cage rather than blasting through the IAF or whatever it is hoping that something fortuitous is going to happen.
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Ok, we're calling this lost comms then.
 
So the clearance limit is still the airport, not the IF or 2500 feet above the airport. The instructions include an "expect" for the localizer, with nothing about expecting a hold.

The only thing that would make proceeding on the approach a bad idea would be the previous airplane on the approach being too close in front of me. If my situational awareness is so bad that I don't have a clue about his whereabouts, I shouldn't be flying.
 
Dang, good points, both ways! Approach Controllers, real world, what's the best move? You want a surprise hold? Fly direct to the airport, no descent, and hold? Start the approach?
 
MauleSkinner said:
BigBadLou said:
I queried several controllers and was very surprised to hear not only different answers but also personal preferences.
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Why would this surprise you? Controllers are just like pilots...they don't have a command of every obscure corner of operations.
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Good question. I think because this seems like a common-enough problem that there should be some standard ops and procedures already developed for it. I agree that if it was a rare corner case, nobody would care. But from the discussion here, as you can see, this seems to be a little bigger.
And I assume that's why the exact same question was asked at a recent safety event we held with our local TRACON guys and local pilots.

Velocity173 said:
If they were tower controllers with no approach background, odds are they won't know it.
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True. These were TRACON guys we queried. And the different answers even between them was what surprised me. That's when I realized that this scenario is not exactly in any books or training materials.

I am sure the same question will pop up during our next controller-pilot meet. :)
 
I would not squawk 7600 or ident. I would turn to intercept the localizer and start the approach. Possible outcomes in that scenario:

1. They expected you to hold for traffic in front of you: Proximity alert on the radar screen and they work you into their busy frequency
2. They expected you to hold in general: They will notice you aren't holding and bring it up
3. They expected you to fly to the airport at 2,500 and hold: They will tell you to "say altitude"
4. They were just about to clear you for the approach and were a few seconds behind (by far the most likely of these outcomes): They will clear you for the approach

Holding below MSA without instructions to hold is potentially dangerous. Flying a localizer and holding above the airport without so much as a handoff to the tower controller for the airport is potentially dangerous and definitely going to annoy someone, be it you or the controller. And those are the only other options that make even a little bit of sense, other than just flying the approach. Since this does seem to be a corner case without a clear regulation telling you what to do (as this is not lost comms and the fix on the approach was not your clearance limit), I am going to do what makes the most sense until told otherwise, and that is flying the approach.
 
drotto said:
Was this issue this past Tuesday the 23rd? We took off from CDW about 2 PM on 28, but VFR. The controllers were very busy at the time. They even called my tail number to confirm they had not forgotten me.
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No this was Monday evening, around 10:45pm. I find this happens often in this area. I've had it happen several times before where I'm told to change frequencies and for several minutes there is literally zero downtime on the frequency. The controller transmits, the other planes responds, and the controller immediately goes to the next plane. Several minutes later the controller asks if I'm on the frequency. If it weren't for their checking for me, I wouldn't get a chance to transmit.
 
Thanks for all the replies guys. It's interesting to see that we can't find a clear cut answer. I was looking at JO 7110.65W 5-6-2(b) and it seems that the controller should have told me what to expect after reaching DOWDY. If I knew what to expect then I would at least know what he doesn't want me to do, but it still raises the question of what you're legally allowed to do.
 
Velocity173 said:
I'd say it's poor phraseology by not saying "cleared to" but I'd still call it a clearance limit. The controller didn't issue a revised route after DOWDY. The controller also told the OP what approach to expect. There has been no clearance for the approach beyond DOWDY. In the absence of a clearance, he should hold at DOWDY on the intercept side.
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I think you are spot on Velocity173. Hold on the inbound course, standard holding pattern - right turns, one minute legs. No approach clearance, do not approach. The 2500 foot altitude in a 3000 foot MSA sector is no problem, as there is a Minimum Vectoring Altitude, which often is below the MSA (check the MVA chart). The minimum vectoring altitude in each sector provides 1000 feet above the highest obstruction in non-mountainous areas and 2000 feet above the highest obstacle in designated mountainous areas. In the busy parts of the country, controllers are extremely efficient, and as one of you said it beautifully - they prioritize traffic, and you came right up as you were approaching DOWDY, and he called you. Way to do it in busy airspace. I see this quite often, but the younger pilots start getting anxious. So in the end did you receive clearance for that approach? and landed as intended at Caldwell?
 
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Sundancer said:
Dang, good points, both ways! Approach Controllers, real world, what's the best move? You want a surprise hold? Fly direct to the airport, no descent, and hold? Start the approach?
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This is one TRACON controllers opinion (for what it's worth). We do this exact thing regularly. We take an aircraft off his route by vector and then send him direct a fix on the approach. Typically in conjunction I will say intercept the final but if I'm busy I may not as I intend to clear you prior to reaching the fix. Which I've always done. If I didn't get back to you, I'd expect you to join the final approach course and start asking me if you're cleared prior to descending.

Again, just replying to your question. NOT backing up my answer with references about what the books say.

PS. I'd also do the same flying and if I can't get word in within a mile or two I'd squawk 7600 and start the approach and immediately switch to tower.
 
Piperboy said:
So in the end did you receive clearance for that approach? and landed as intended at Caldwell?
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Yes, I got the approach clearance right before hitting DOWDY.
 
Piperboy said:
So, nothing to it, business as usual.
:D
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This time. :)

I've been vectored before to KHPN to intercept the localizer and the controller got too busy and forgot me (by his own admission + it was busy) and I just kept flying on the assigned heading through the localizer and then had to be vectored back around to intercept. It's one thing if you have a heading vector, because you can just keep flying it, but a vector to an off route fix creates potential issues as I think this thread shows.
 
Ben E. said:
Yes, I got the approach clearance right before hitting DOWDY.
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So, business as usual. By carving out the rest of the route, the controller saved you a lot of dough, and time, so business better than usual. Enjoy.
:D
 
Sometimes they do genuinely forget a craft. I've flown through a localizer once in a while. Hey, that's life. Keep on trucking.
:D
 
Ben E. said:
Thanks for all the replies guys. It's interesting to see that we can't find a clear cut answer. I was looking at JO 7110.65W 5-6-2(b) and it seems that the controller should have told me what to expect after reaching DOWDY. If I knew what to expect then I would at least know what he doesn't want me to do, but it still raises the question of what you're legally allowed to do.
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4-6-2 (b). With the note that I attached earlier being the most applicable.
 
Ben E. said:
I was looking at JO 7110.65W 5-6-2(b) and it seems that the controller should have told me what to expect after reaching DOWDY. If I knew what to expect then I would at least know what he doesn't want me to do...
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Based on your OP, I'd say he told you exactly what to expect.
Ben E. said:
After reaching ESJAY we were vectored for a bit and told to expect the LOC 22 into KCDW.
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MauleSkinner said:
Based on your OP, I'd say he told you exactly what to expect.
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We were told to expect the LOC 22 after being given a heading vector and by a previous controller. Then 20 minutes later we were given a new vector (to DOWDY) from a new controller without being told what to expect. The ATC handbook says to give a vector and then to tell what to expect / explain why you are giving that vector. So I get what you're saying, but I think there should have been an explanation for the vector to DOWDY considering it wasn't part of my original clearance, without me having to assume that the "expect the LOC 22" from a previous controller was the explanation for my new vector. And even if the expect LOC 22 statement was the explanation for the later vector, I don't think I'm legally able to join the localizer after hitting DOWDY without further instructions.
 
Ben E. said:
We were told to expect the LOC 22 after being given a heading vector and by a previous controller. Then 20 minutes later we were given a new vector (to DOWDY) from a new controller without being told what to expect. The ATC handbook says to give a vector and then to tell what to expect / explain why you are giving that vector. So I get what you're saying, but I think there should have been an explanation for the vector to DOWDY considering it wasn't part of my original clearance, without me having to assume that the "expect the LOC 22" from a previous controller was the explanation for my new vector. And even if the expect LOC 22 statement was the explanation for the later vector, I don't think I'm legally able to join the localizer after hitting DOWDY without further instructions.
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Wasn't it obvious why you got the vector for DOWDY when the previous controlled had told you to expect LOC22?
 
"Expect" means very little. In this case, it's required by the controller to be issued for "approach information." It's just a standard transmission and not an approach clearance. You're given expect for altitude as well but that doesn't mean you go to it just because the controller is busy.

You have to look at this based on why the controller didn't issue the clearance in the first place. Why not "Cleared direct DOWDY maintain 2,500 until established, cleared localizer runway 22 approach." It's not hard to throw in an approach clearance with a clearance direct a fix. I assume the controller had either an arrival in front of the OP or had a crossing departure off another runway and was waiting to issue the clearance. While the example is a towered field, it's common at uncontrolled fields to be sent direct a fix awaiting a cancelation of a previous aircraft. Or even awaiting a departure that is running late. In these cases the controller should at least tell the pilot to track inbound on the approach and when to expect the clearance. I always did.
 
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"Why not "Cleared direct DOWDY maintain 2,500 until established, cleared localizer runway 22 approach."

Because the controller is not looking that far into the flight. Gives you direct DOWDY. Now you're off his back, so he can attend to his other traffic. Also there might be another airplane in consideration for the same approach before he can clear you.

You're one ship. He's got a lot of them, and he has the 'big picture' which we don't, even with TCAS.
 
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mtuomi said:
Wasn't it obvious why you got the vector for DOWDY when the previous controlled had told you to expect LOC22?
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Yes, it was obvious that we would be doing the LOC 22. But as Velocity173 points out in #70, there could be someone else on the approach (there was), and I don't want to go on assumptions when I'm in the clouds and close to other traffic and obstructions. This is really a what if question since it ended up not being an issue for me, but in the future it could be so I think it's good to have a clear idea of what to do. Even though it's not the textbook answer, and probably not the legal answer, it seems most people would have joined the localizer, which is what I would have done too if I didn't get my clearance before DOWDY.
 
Expect localizer 22 is not a clearance to join it.

This gives you thumbs up what to expect after DOWDY, so you can prepare for the approach.

I would never join a localizer or any other approach without the express clearance from the approach control.

I see this situation quite often, as I fly into some of the busiest airports.

:D
 
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Ok...so you were told what approach to expect, you were vectored to a fix that you knew was on that approach, and you assumed plans had changed simply because you changed frequencies?
 
Piperboy said:
Expect localizer 22 is not a clearance to join it.

This gives you thumbs up what to expect after DOWDY, so you can prepare for the approach.

I would never join a localizer or any other approach without the express clearance from the approach control.

I see this situation quite often, as I fly into some of the busiest airports.

:D
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So what would you do? So far there's do the Approach. Go into holding at DOWDY which would involve joining the localizer and there's been go direct to the airport which would be the same as joining the localizer even if you didn't follow the needle to do it.
 
I would not hold at DOWDY, especially in the busy airspace around NY. Good chance the have someone behind you.

After DOWDY you have 3.9nm until you should be at 2000 feet for the FAF. Assuming a ground speed of 120K that gives you 2.4nm, 1 minute 12 seconds to get the approach clearance before you need to start down.

If by DOWDY you do not have clearance call the tower. If you do not get the tower either now you are no radio, shoot the approach.
 
Plano Pilot said:
I would not hold at DOWDY, especially in the busy airspace around NY. Good chance the have someone behind you.

After DOWDY you have 3.9nm until you should be at 2000 feet for the FAF. Assuming a ground speed of 120K that gives you 2.4nm, 1 minute 12 seconds to get the approach clearance before you need to start down.

If by DOWDY you do not have clearance call the tower. If you do not get the tower either now you are no radio, shoot the approach.
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Wouldn't hurt to slow down too...


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MauleSkinner said:
Ok...so you were told what approach to expect, you were vectored to a fix that you knew was on that approach, and you assumed plans had changed simply because you changed frequencies?
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That's not what I said. My original question was what should I have done if I reached DOWDY with no further clearance. People here have different opinions. There does not seem to be a consensus on what the text book answer is. Some people said they would do what the controller was expecting. Some pointed out that the controller may not have stated what to do after reaching DOWDY because of other traffic in the vicinity, like the one that was actually on the approach but had switched to tower, so the controller was waiting to see what he wanted me to do. So since I might not be able to start the approach due to traffic, I can't say with certainty what the controller is expecting that minute. And since I can't see and other planes are nearby, I don't want to make assumptions.

Yes, I do think it's safe to assume that things could have changed in 20 minutes in NYC airspace in low level IMC (a lot of missed approaches that night, including one for me on an ILS nearby) and when I'm talking to a different controller than one that simply told me what approach to expect. I did in fact think that the controller would want me to join the localizer. I didn't get that clearance so it doesn't matter that I was expecting it or that I was told 20 minutes earlier to expect the LOC 22.
 
luvflyin said:
Try AIM 6-4-1 for a textbook answer. Be sure and read a., then the rest. LOC22 is what you were told to expect. If I was coming up on DOWDY and unable to communicate I'd squawk 7600 and broadcast at the next break on the frequency that I was commencing the Approach. If no reply from Approach I'd go to Tower right away and tell them.
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That would be good strategy. At least the tower controller would know if another aircraft was on the approach ahead of you and conceivable approve your use of the approach. Safety is the primary issue.
 
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