clearance limit

[Velocity173]

As the OP said before, he had an expected clearance beyond the fix. He just didn't understand that. Your references DONT address that.

That doesn't matter. He wasn't cleared for the approach. The type of approach to expect is given regardless of direct a fix on the approach or a radar vector for the approach. Either way, no authorization is given to proceed inbound on the approach.

 

[gsengle]

That doesn't matter. He wasn't cleared for the approach. The type of approach to expect is given regardless of direct a fix on the approach or a radar vector for the approach. Either way, no authorization is given to proceed inbound on the approach.

You're ignoring what I wrote. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was pointing out how a vector behaves differently. Feel free to tell me again I'm wrong about something I wasn't commenting on.


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[Velocity173]

You're ignoring what I wrote. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was pointing out how a vector behaves differently. Feel free to tell me again I'm wrong about something I wasn't commenting on.


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I just answered it above.

Listen guys, I'm not saying this scenario is black and white either. I'm just saying that the references that I gave, give the best possible explanation. I could ask this question to family and friends that currently do ATC and get three different answers on the subject. That's the reality of aviation.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That doesn't matter. He wasn't cleared for the approach. The type of approach to expect is given regardless of direct a fix on the approach or a radar vector for the approach. Either way, no authorization is given to proceed inbound on the approach.

I never said it was a clearance to proceed...but it was not a fix at which delays are expected, which are what your references deal with.

 

[gsengle]

Again a vector behaves differently than being sent to a fix. Period.


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[dtuuri]

OP here, so it seems like the issues come down to:
* Is the inability to talk to ATC due to frequency congestion a lost comm situation?
* Did the instruction to proceed direct DOWDY, which was not part of the original clearance, constitute a clearance amendment resetting the clearance limit to DOWDY?
...
What do you guys think?

Whether it's lost comm or not the action is the same. Under lost comm you have no holding assigned, i.e., no change in clearance limit, so you still are cleared to the airport from your original clearance. At most you've been given a change in routing, that's all, a short cut, an "operational advantage". The clearance for the approach is redundant and the .65 Order even states as much, IIRC*. Controllers do like to say it, but if they don't want you to do it they had better cough up some holding instructions.

*EDIT: 4−8−2. CLEARANCE LIMIT
Issue approach or other clearances, as required, specifying the destination airport as the clearance limit if airport traffic control service is not provided even though this is
a repetition of the initial clearance.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT​

See? "A repetition of the initial clearance". Of course if ATS (tower) exists, no need to remind the pilot where to go. ATC will hand off until landed.

dtuuri

 

[Larry in TN]

Either way, no authorization is given to proceed inbound on the approach.

No authorization was given for him to do anything else, either. He can't hover, he has to do something. There is nothing in the FARs, AIM, or 7110.65 which provides a definitive answer in this situation.

As I said many, many messages ago, the busy controller knows where he is and will provide further instructions before the fix is reached and that is exactly what ended up happening.

 

[dtuuri]

I think there was a commuter pilot a few years ago who made a 180 at the IF at DEN? I don't remember if the Chief Counsel was involved in the case. Maybe somebody else here can cite the details..

dtuuri

I've been searching for the incident I cited here, but the only one I can find is this:

http://avherald.com/h?article=423a04ef​

It isn't exactly how I remembered it, but it does show why going against the grain can be hazardous to your health.

dtuuri

 

[Palmpilot]

Say holding at DOWDY became necessary... which direction would he turn? Left?

Here's the plate for reference: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1705/05275L22.PDF

Since that link has now expired, I'm attaching a PDF that I downloaded from it.