Clearance Delivery VFR

[roncachamp]

Yes Steven, we've been through this before with you. You say it isn't required, but many of us who operate out of several Class C airports around the country know that ATC there expects VFR pilots to contact CD first.

So where may this requirement for VFR departures to obtain a clearance to depart PVD be found?

 

[eetrojan]

So where may this requirement for VFR departures to obtain a clearance to depart PVD be found?

I dunnoh about PVD, or Class C airports in general, but it's definitely mandatory to me per the ATIS at KSNA John Wayne (class C):

 

[eetrojan]

So where may this requirement for VFR departures to obtain a clearance to depart PVD be found?

John Wayne's AFD entry also includes two separate frequencies for clearance delivery, one for IFR departures (118.0) and a second one for VFR departures (121.85). Is this a convention in AFD sheets?

 

[Velocity173]

I think what Steven's referring to is that you're not contacting CD to obtain a departure clearance. It's merely a call to get coordination (departure procedure, sqk, freq, etc.) instructions to provide a smoother transition out of the airspace. Semantics.

 

[flyingron]

TRSA, the only one I have ever been to the ATIS said VFR "call clearance delivery and advise direction of flight". I treat a TRSA as a voluntary Class C anyway.

It may be voluntary on a regulatory basis, but the one I'm familiar with you won't get into the interior class D or off the ground unless you play the game as if it were a class C.

 

[Mike Boehler]

I may be quite far from an expert on such matters but if your sitting in your plane, at the GA terminal and your not sure whether or not to call CD or Ground, you've already violated a FAR. This info is clearly marked in lots of info that is literally seconds away for your perusing.

What am I missing after 45 posts on this subject?

Sec. 91.103 — Preflight action.

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include—
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;

(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:

(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and

(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.

 

[eetrojan]

I think what Steven's referring to is that you're not contacting CD to obtain a departure clearance. It's merely a call to get coordination (departure procedure, sqk, freq, etc.) instructions to provide a smoother transition out of the airspace. Semantics.

Really?

Thanks. Never mind then. I'll just watch.

 

[bobmrg]

I've never flown at an airport that does this, would you normally just call ground and let them direct you as to what they want?

I fly out of a class D and we have a separate ground and tower frequency but it's the same person answering. The script is pretty much this...

"Eau Claire ground, Archer 6185H is at hangars G row with the weather, ready to taxi. Will be departing northwest."

"Archer 85H, runway 22 taxi via A."

"22, taxi via A, 85H"

*taxi, then runup, switch to tower frequency*

"Eau Claire tower, Archer 85H ready for takeoff on 22."

"Archer 85H, cleared for takeoff runway 22. Right turn at your discretion"

"Cleared for takeoff 22, 85H"

Then at the boundary of the airspace
"Eau Claire Tower, Archer 85H is clear of D airspace"

"Roger 85H, frequency change approved, good day."

At this point if we want flight following, we call Minneapolis center.

Our tower/ground is not busy at all and you normally have all the time in the world to ask for get any clarification you need in plain English. If I want a different runway or to do something unusual... I can just ask and 9/10 times I'll get it. From conversations I've had with other pilots, especially here, my tower experience isn't typical?

I read these discussions about clearance delivery and people having to wait several minutes to depart and things of that nature and it makes me a bit nervous about going somewhere busier. A busy day at KEAU means I might be #2 to land or have to extend a downwind or something.

Not required. See AIM 4-3-2(a).

Bob Gardner

 

[eetrojan]

Not required. See AIM 4-3-2(a).

Bob Gardner

Hi Bob, as another data point, one of the controllers in my local tower says that notwithstanding the AIM, they prefer that we request a change and not just switch.

Joe

Hi XXXX,

I was wondering if you could help me with a student pilot’s communication question. What better place than right to the source!

For an “El Toro Local,” Clearance gives me a direction and an altitude restriction (“left 080, VFR at or below 2400…”). Then, as I fly toward El Toro Airfield and exit the surface area, Tower USUALLY says “squawk VFR, frequency change approved.” On occasion, however, Tower doesn’t say anything and I end up flying farther than usual. So, here’s my question…

From your point of view as a Controller, when I have exited the surface area but you have not affirmatively authorized me to squawk 1200 and change frequency, what should I do?

• just change frequency?
• call Tower and say “so long” and change frequency?
• call Tower and remind them I’m still there, i.e. say “907SL is approaching El Toro”?
• call Tower and request a frequency change?
• something else?

The standard procedure in AIM 4-3-2 seems to suggest I should leave you alone and simply change frequency, i.e. “In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas.”

However, my flight school wants me to request the change.

What do you prefer, or require?

I appreciate your thoughts!

Thanks!

Joe

Hi Joe,

You are welcome to ask me any question, any time! As for this particular situation…..at SNA, we usually like to make sure everyone is "officially" switched.

Sometimes, we may get busy with something more pressing, but other times, we just didn't give the freq change, and we should've. I agree with your flight school….and as a controller, I'd rather have you say something to the effect of…."John Wayne Tower, N907SL requesting frequency change". You can add in that you're leaving our airspace if you want, but that's not even necessary.

The reason I like this, vs. you just switching, is because at some point, the controller will realize they haven't switched you, and try to reach you, and that will actually take up more time... plus they're hoping you haven't lost a radio , or any other number of things we can imagine! Asking for the freq change will not bother anyone, (even though it's not required or necessary) AND everyone is clear on who is where, and talking to whom!

I know this was a very long answer, and I hope I haven't made it more confusing, but that's my (& most of the people I work with) take on it!

Let me know if you need more clarification, and any other questions are more than welcome!

Take care and happy flying

[Controller]

 

[tinerj]

I always choose wrong. If I go to ground, they tell me to go to clearance delivery. If I go to clearance delivery they tell me to contact ground.

Sometimes I want to say, "Give me clearance, Clarence."

 

[MAKG1]

I may be quite far from an expert on such matters but if your sitting in your plane, at the GA terminal and your not sure whether or not to call CD or Ground, you've already violated a FAR. This info is clearly marked in lots of info that is literally seconds away for your perusing.

What am I missing after 45 posts on this subject?

That the information is not always available.

Where to give your departure request seems to be on ATIS around half the time.

There is no significant consequence to guessing wrong. Not even a comment, let alone a violation.

 

[Mike Boehler]

That the information is not always available.

Where to give your departure request seems to be on ATIS around half the time.

There is no significant consequence to guessing wrong. Not even a comment, let alone a violation.

Maybe simply a difference in how we are all taught slightly different. I was taught that if the field has ATIS, obviously listen to it for instruction, if there are no clear Departure instructions, we call CD if there is one posted. If there is not one posted, then its GC. For us, there was no interpretation involved.

Maybe I did my initial training too long ago. For those of us under the tutelage of this particular CFI, there was no question as to what to do.

 

[MAKG1]

Maybe simply a difference in how we are all taught slightly different. I was taught that if the field has ATIS, obviously listen to it for instruction, if there are no clear Departure instructions, we call CD if there is one posted. If there is not one posted, then its GC. For us, there was no interpretation involved.

Maybe I did my initial training too long ago. For those of us under the tutelage of this particular CFI, there was no question as to what to do.

The first time I departed KOAK, I did exactly what you said -- ATIS is silent and I called CD. I got a polite handoff to ground and no phone number to call for a possible PD.

It has nothing to do with training, aside from overreacting.

Whom to give your departure request to is just one of many local procedures. Local departures aren't in ATIS either, and only the basic noise abatement constraints are in the A/FD.

 

[Mike Boehler]

The first time I departed KOAK, I did exactly what you said -- ATIS is silent and I called CD. I got a polite handoff to ground and no phone number to call for a possible PD.

It has nothing to do with training, aside from overreacting.

Whom to give your departure request to is just one of many local procedures. Local departures aren't in ATIS either, and only the basic noise abatement constraints are in the A/FD.

I think it has a lot to do with training actually. What you did is what I was taught. Like I said, I was taught that if the ATIS didn't clearly spell out your initial call procedure, then it was CD if there is one posted. Which you did. Problem solved, right?

If I flew out of OAK, I'd continue the same procedure each time until I was told that they would prefer another procedure. The fact that they told you to contact someone else, doesn't necessarily mean they always want you to start somewhere else.

Clearly some are taught to proceed otherwise, or there wouldn't be a tread about it.

In my limited experience, I NEVER ONCE departed a Class C VFR without CD first. To be honest, I thought they were all that way. My bad.

 

[Velocity173]

Really?

Thanks. Never mind then. I'll just watch.

# 41 post by Steven. It's minutia but that's what Steven thrives on. Technically he is correct. The example isn't SVFR so there is no clearance to leave the airspace that CD is getting. Generally it's not even for a release. You're calling CD for coordination purposes which may or may not contain departure instructions for the separation from other IFR aircraft.

It's just wording is all. Kinda like when pilots say they were "handed off" to ground. Technically it's not a hand off by definition, it's only a coordination and a communications transfer. Like I said, semantics.

 

[bobmrg]

Hi Bob, as another data point, one of the controllers in my local tower says that notwithstanding the AIM, they prefer that we request a change and not just switch.

Joe

He is decidedly in the minority. The controllers I talk to say "I've got two choices...I can take the time to educate the pilots on the subject or I can say frequency change approved. Educating takes too long; the downside is that every pilot on the frequency that hears that exchange assumes that the pilot was right and the controller was following procedure...which is exactly backward."

If you are departing a tower-controlled airport and the controller sees the possibility of conflict with another plane, s/he will say "Stay with me" well before you reach the boundary of the Class D.

Bob

 

[Velocity173]

He is decidedly in the minority. The controllers I talk to say "I've got two choices...I can take the time to educate the pilots on the subject or I can say frequency change approved. Educating takes too long; the downside is that every pilot on the frequency that hears that exchange assumes that the pilot was right and the controller was following procedure...which is exactly backward."

If you are departing a tower-controlled airport and the controller sees the possibility of conflict with another plane, s/he will say "Stay with me" well before you reach the boundary of the Class D.

Bob

Exactly. Too often I hear guys that are already clear of the D and they ask for a freq change. I don't mind when they do it but you have students who hear it and think it's a required call. Primacy.

Only exception is when I'm dealing with a C and tower is giving me advisories. When I'm done with the help I tell them that I'd like to terminate. "radar services terminated, sqk VFR, frequency change approved."

 

[airdale]

Too often I hear guys that are already clear of the D and they ask for a freq change.

I never do that when I'm VFR, but I do make a practice of staying on my home base tower freq. until I'm really well away. It is not uncommon at all for them to call traffic for me even after I've left their official airspace. Good guys there.

 

[poadeleted20]

I may be quite far from an expert on such matters but if your sitting in your plane, at the GA terminal and your not sure whether or not to call CD or Ground, you've already violated a FAR. This info is clearly marked in lots of info that is literally seconds away for your perusing.

That information isn't always available in writing. Sometimes you just have to ask -- and there are days when I've called CD three times before someone comes back and says "Aircraft calling clearance, call us on Ground" because when it's slow, they merge the two positions on Ground freq.

And I've never heard of an ATCT writing someone up for calling on the wrong one, anyway.

EDIT: And I see MAKG1 said the same thing in fewer words about five posts up.

 

[roncachamp]

I dunnoh about PVD, or Class C airports in general, but it's definitely mandatory to me per the ATIS at KSNA John Wayne (class C):

Can you provide an example of a typical "clearance" issued by CD to a VFR departure from KSNA?

 

[roncachamp]

He is decidedly in the minority. The controllers I talk to say "I've got two choices...I can take the time to educate the pilots on the subject or I can say frequency change approved. Educating takes too long; the downside is that every pilot on the frequency that hears that exchange assumes that the pilot was right and the controller was following procedure...which is exactly backward."

'ZACKLY!!

 

[John221us]

Can you provide an example of a typical "clearance" issued by CD to a VFR departure from KSNA?

I guess it's not a "clearance" at SNA. They have specific VFR departure routes and you are supposed to be familiar.

NORMAL VFR DEPARTURE ROUTES:
Departing SE: El Toro Departure - "Fly heading 080° "
Departing S: Newport Departure - "Fly heading 150° "
Departing SW: Mesa Departure - "Fly heading 220° "
Departing NW: Orange Departure - "Fly heading 330° "
Squawk Code, Advisory Frequency, and Altitude as assigned.

Pilots not requesting radar service beyond the surface area of the Class C airspace may state “local” when requesting their departure route. (Example: “John Wayne Clearance, Cessna N739MB, west-side parking, Mesa Local Departure.”) Local radar service will be terminated upon exiting the 5 nm surface area of the Class C airspace. Pilots must then remain clear of all other regulated airspace, including the upper tier of the Class C airspace.

 

[poadeleted20]

What John has posted are technically "instructions", not "clearances". A "clearance" provides separation; "instructions" may not.

 

[JimNtexas]

Can you provide an example of a typical "clearance" issued by CD to a VFR departure from KAUS?

N8035G: "Clearance, Cardinal 8035G, VFR Waco, four thousand five hundred"

CD: "35 Golf stand by'

[20-30 seconds elapse]

CD: "Cardinal 8035G departure frequency 122.75, squawk 4501"

 

[roncachamp]

N8035G: "Clearance, Cardinal 8035G, VFR Waco, four thousand five hundred"

CD: "35 Golf stand by'

[20-30 seconds elapse]

CD: "Cardinal 8035G departure frequency 122.75, squawk 4501"

Amazing. Austin clearance can issue an authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace, with just a VHF comm frequency and a transponder code. That position must be staffed by the best controllers ever born.

 

[eetrojan]

Can you provide an example of a typical "clearance" issued by CD to a VFR departure from KSNA?

I don't know if it's a "clearance" or not, only that it comes to me from "Clearance Delivery." With that out of the way, and related to the OP's question of "Is it frowned upon to use clearance delivery when departing VFR?", I can tell you that after I contact Clearance Delivery per the mandatory instructions in the ATIS, then Clearance Delivery delivers something like this:

Bugmasher ABC, on departure turn left 080, maintain VFR at or below 2400, monitor frequency 124.1, squawk 0270

I am then provided with radar services for my VFR flight, without having to do anything more, starting with tower, handed to departure on the frequency that Clearance Delivery gave me above, and then to next controller, etc...

 

[eetrojan]

Amazing. Austin clearance can issue an authorization by air traffic control for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace, with just a VHF comm frequency and a transponder code. That position must be staffed by the best controllers ever born.

I'm inexperienced and unclear of your intent. What does this mean?

 

[roncachamp]

I don't know if it's a "clearance" or not, only that it comes to me from "Clearance Delivery." With that out of the way, and related to the OP's question of "Is it frowned upon to use clearance delivery when departing VFR?", I can tell you that after I contact Clearance Delivery per the mandatory instructions in the ATIS, then Clearance Delivery delivers something like this:

Bugmasher ABC, on departure turn left 080, maintain VFR at or below 2400, monitor frequency 124.1, squawk 0270

I am then provided with radar services for my VFR flight, without having to do anything more, starting with tower, handed to departure on the frequency that Clearance Delivery gave me above, and then to next controller, etc...

Sounds pretty much like it does at Class C airports that don't tell VFR departures to contact Clearance Delivery via the ATIS, where these pilots logically make their first call to ground.

 

[roncachamp]

I'm inexperienced and unclear of your intent. What does this mean?

My intent was to illustrate that what JimNtexas is receiving from Austin clearance delivery does not fit the definition of a clearance. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE− An authorization by
air traffic control for the purpose of preventing
collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to
proceed under specified traffic conditions within
controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an
aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of a
visual flight rules (VFR) or instrument flight rules
(IFR) air traffic clearance except in an emergency or
unless an amended clearance has been obtained.
Additionally, the pilot may request a different
clearance from that which has been issued by air
traffic control (ATC) if information available to the
pilot makes another course of action more practicable
or if aircraft equipment limitations or company
procedures forbid compliance with the clearance
issued. Pilots may also request clarification or
amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is
not fully understood, or considered unacceptable
because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in
such instances and to the extent of operational
practicality and safety, honor the pilot’s request.
14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: “The pilot in command
of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the
final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.”
THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN
AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a
clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a
rule or regulation, or in the pilot’s opinion, would
place the aircraft in jeopardy.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I'm inexperienced and unclear of your intent. What does this mean?

He likes to argue semantics and make sure everyone knows how smart he is, rather than just giving a helpful, real world answer to a question.

As for the OP, I am based(rent) at a class C and though it's never published in the ATIS or A/FD, I always contact CD prior to departure. MOST days, ground and CD are being ran by the same guy. If it's exceptionally busy, they might not be.

 

[eetrojan]

My intent was to illustrate that what JimNtexas is receiving from Austin clearance delivery does not fit the definition of a clearance. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

AIR TRAFFIC CLEARANCE− An authorization by
air traffic control for the purpose of preventing
collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to
proceed under specified traffic conditions within
controlled airspace. The pilot-in-command of an
aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of a
visual flight rules (VFR) or instrument flight rules
(IFR) air traffic clearance except in an emergency or
unless an amended clearance has been obtained.
Additionally, the pilot may request a different
clearance from that which has been issued by air
traffic control (ATC) if information available to the
pilot makes another course of action more practicable
or if aircraft equipment limitations or company
procedures forbid compliance with the clearance
issued. Pilots may also request clarification or
amendment, as appropriate, any time a clearance is
not fully understood, or considered unacceptable
because of safety of flight. Controllers should, in
such instances and to the extent of operational
practicality and safety, honor the pilot’s request.
14 CFR Part 91.3(a) states: “The pilot in command
of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the
final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.”
THE PILOT IS RESPONSIBLE TO REQUEST AN
AMENDED CLEARANCE if ATC issues a
clearance that would cause a pilot to deviate from a
rule or regulation, or in the pilot’s opinion, would
place the aircraft in jeopardy.

Perhaps, but if we're talking semantics, isn't it reasonable that we members of the unwashed masses might reasonably refer to instructions being delivered by "Clearance Delivery" as a clearance of some kind or other?

Assuming that it's true, does the technical misuse of the term "clearance" in this manner affect anything from a safety or efficiency perspective?

 

[roncachamp]

He likes to argue semantics and make sure everyone knows how smart he is, rather than just giving a helpful, real world answer to a question.

Gee, I thought I gave a helpful, real world answer in post #10. To you it's just semantics, to me it's precise speech, accurate use of of terminology. That's pretty much the reason the Pilot/Controller Glossary exists today.

 

[roncachamp]

Perhaps, but if we're talking semantics, isn't it reasonable that we members of the unwashed masses might reasonably refer to instructions being delivered by "Clearance Delivery" as a clearance of some kind or other?

If you do not understand what a clearance is and the conditions that require them, yes.

Assuming that it's true, does the technical misuse of the term "clearance" in this manner affect anything from a safety or efficiency perspective?

Sure. It's inefficient to make your initial call to clearance delivery only to be told to contact ground.

 

[eetrojan]

If you do not understand what a clearance is and the conditions that require them, yes.



Sure. It's inefficient to make your initial call to clearance delivery only to be told to contact ground.

I don't understand your answer given that I am instructed to contact "clearance delivery" when departing VFR.

Are you saying that airports that have a Clearance Delivery frequency, but don't have mandatory instructions for all aircraft to contact Clearance Delivery, then ONLY IFR pilots should contact CD, and all VFR pilots should contact ground?

If not, please clarify. Thanks

 

[roncachamp]

I don't understand your answer given that I am instructed to contact "clearance delivery" when departing VFR.

You're not told that everywhere.

Are you saying that airports that have a Clearance Delivery frequency, but don't have mandatory instructions for all aircraft to contact Clearance Delivery, then ONLY IFR pilots should contact CD, and all VFR pilots should contact ground?

Yup.

 

[warthog1984]

You're not told that everywhere.



Yup.

Strange. KSBA doesn't mention anything about CD on their ATIS, yet whenever I called up CD VFR I get "bugsmasher 12345, expect runway 15R, turn right 200, maintain at or below 1500, departure freq 125.4, squawk 4321, contact ground on XXX.XX"

 

[Flymeariver]

Strange. KSBA doesn't mention anything about CD on their ATIS, yet whenever I called up CD VFR I get "bugsmasher 12345, expect runway 15R, turn right 200, maintain at or below 1500, departure freq 125.4, squawk 4321, contact ground on XXX.XX"

Same for KACY

 

[roncachamp]

Strange. KSBA doesn't mention anything about CD on their ATIS, yet whenever I called up CD VFR I get "bugsmasher 12345, expect runway 15R, turn right 200, maintain at or below 1500, departure freq 125.4, squawk 4321, contact ground on XXX.XX"

Clearance delivery and ground are probably combined, one controller is working both positions. A common practice.

 

[roncachamp]

Same for KACY

Ditto.

 

[Velocity173]

Listen, there is no standard on this. Some class C ATISs will say contact say contact CD some say contact GD and some don't say anything for VFRs. We can say all day long that my airport does this or that but it's not a universal procedure. Just be flexible.