roncachamp
Final Approach
Pretty much what I said seventy messages ago.
Clearance Delivery VFR
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Pretty much what I said seventy messages ago.
poadeleted20
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He is saying that, but he's not necessarily correct. As I said above, listen to ATIS -- it will tell you if VFR aircraft should contact CD or Ground. If there's no ATIS, there's not likely to be a CD freq anyway, but if there is, the folks in the tower won't care much if you use the "wrong" one first.
ChrisK
En-Route
And in my experience departing VFR from a Class C, you can be requested to contact CD with one departure and be asked to switch to ground for a departure from the same airport an hour later. No one seems to care much if you call CD and they say "just go to ground".
JimNtexas
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Those words make no sense! Don't stay logged in if your pet monkey is around.
comanchepilot
En-Route
There are lots of Class D's that will not get you FF . . .
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
Well duh! That's because IT'S NOT A CLEARANCE CLARENCE! It's just information they want the VFR pilot to have before he calls ground and then gets a taxi clearance. The CD controller enters this information into the ATC system, so now ground, tower, departure, and often center controllers are expecting me. This saves everyone a lot of trouble.
Since you don't seem to understand anything about air traffic control let me give an example of Clearance delivery giving a clearance:
8035G: Clearance, Cardinal 8035G IFR to Waco
[20 to 30 second delay]
CD: Cardinal 8035G cleared to the Waco airport, Austin 3 departure Waco transition, climb and maintain 4000 expect 6000 10 minutes after departure, departure control 122.75, squawk 4502.
See the absence and presence of the magic word? And even though the magic word was used in the IFR case, that's not clearance for me to go full throttle in my hanger and blast off to Waco right then.!
As far as the Austin controllers, they are first rate and clearly know their business really well.
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roncachamp
Final Approach
That you cannot make sense of them does not mean they don't make sense.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You provided it as an example of a typical clearance issued by CD to a VFR departure from KAUS, Clarence.
That we have dissimilar understandings about air traffic control does not mean that I do not understand anything about air traffic control.
As far as you can determine based on your understanding of air traffic control.
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
It means that Steven is a troll.
warthog1984
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...and this "same person" is supposedly working one frequency in a male baritone voice and the other with a female alto?
roncachamp
Final Approach
I did say "probably".
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
Hi roncachopm, your very first response to the OP's question of "Is it frowned upon to use clearance delivery when departing VFR?” was "What would you use it for when departing VFR?" (post #4).
My sense is that even though VFR pilots are sometimes instructed to use "clearance delivery" to depart, you were trying to teach, through cryptic questioning, that "clearance delivery" and VFR shouldn't be used in the same sentence because VFR pilots don't get "clearances." Correct? If so, it would be better if you just said that, rather than tried to tease it out with your counter question.
Either way, for us new VFR pilots, can you directly, clearly, and completely summarize when a VFR pilot should contact "Clearance Delivery", and when they shouldn't? Maybe it's in this thread somewhere, but I'm not sure.
I for one would be grateful.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Not correct, I wanted to know what the poster intended to accomplish by calling clearance delivery. Note that he didn't say what the class of airspace was or even that he was departing a towered field. There are some untowered fields with clearance delivery frequencies.
A VFR departure should contact clearance delivery when info in the A/FD or ATIS instructs them to do so. Absent that the initial call should go to ground.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I don't think there's a clear answer to that anywhere in writing.
In your example at John Wayne, the ATIS clearly tells the pilot to contact CD when departing VFR.
At KMSN, the ATIS doesn't tell me to do it, and I'm not instructed to do so in the AF/D... but my instructors taught me to do so, and it's normal practice for all pilots here. As far as I know, you'll get told to contact CD if you try to call ground for taxi. Sometimes, ground and CD are getting worked by the same person, in which case it matters less. But the ground controller will still ask your intentions and give you the departure east or west frequency and a squak code, along with an at or below altitude.
roncachamp
Final Approach
That's odd.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I've flown out of there many times but I've always called up the CD frequency first with my intentions.
I guess a person could do it by calling ground first... if the same person were working both. I do know on some days that a separate person is working each frequency, but I've never called ground first in that situation. It's my guess that they would ask you to contact clearance, but I can't be sure. Never tried it
I guess a person could do it by calling ground first... if the same person were working both. I do know on some days that a separate person is working each frequency, but I've never called ground first in that situation. It's my guess that they would ask you to contact clearance, but I can't be sure. Never tried it
paflyer
Final Approach
The default is- if there is a CD frequency call them first; if the place is busy enough to warrant CD, then they will have a departure control frequency and expect a handoff from the tower and see your assigned Mode C code.
If CD says to contact Ground, then just do it. You may or may not get the same info on the Ground freq.
Don't make this rocket science and more confusing for newbies than it has to be.
If CD says to contact Ground, then just do it. You may or may not get the same info on the Ground freq.
Don't make this rocket science and more confusing for newbies than it has to be.
roncachamp
Final Approach
What makes calling CD first the default? At KGRB, if CD and ground happen to be split, a VFR departure calling CD will just be told to call ground.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
And at KMSN that doesn't hold true.
So, in the instance where they are split and there is no specific instruction on whom to contact prior to a VFR departure, what's the "right" thing to do? And who says so?
So, in the instance where they are split and there is no specific instruction on whom to contact prior to a VFR departure, what's the "right" thing to do? And who says so?
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Velocity173
I wouldn't go so far to say you have to hear "cleared" to be on an ATC clearance. I agree with Ron. If you received instructions (specific traffic conditions) that are necessary to prevent a collision while operating in AUS class C, that would be considered a clearance. I think it really depends on if those instructions are for separation or if it's just some noise abatement procedure to determine if it's technically a clearance.
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eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
Those are my last remaining questions too. Thanks.
Anybody?
Or, does it just vary from airport to airport?
Mike Boehler
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Mike Boehler
Call your current CFI, forget about the internet.
Of course my advice comes from the internet...What we feel is right or wrong is probably somehow ingrained in us through training some where along the way.
Personally, I never heard anyone get bitched out by a clearance delivery agent for calling them for a VFR departure from a C.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Or call the tower. They may have an answer
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Velocity173
It's simple, listen to the ATIS. Generally if I'm departing the area and want FF, I can CD anyway. If I'm staying in the pattern I go straight to ground.
When it comes down to it, who cares if you call the wrong controller? It's no FAR violation and unless you did something contrary to what's on the ATIS, they're not going to throw a fit about it.
When it comes down to it, who cares if you call the wrong controller? It's no FAR violation and unless you did something contrary to what's on the ATIS, they're not going to throw a fit about it.
paflyer
Final Approach
Maybe if you're expecting to just taxi to wherever you are going.
CD gives you the info to exit the airport environment. If your AP is sleepy or minimally staffed at times you might have some local tradition to call up ground. But at any C I've been to, the procedure is to call up CD for departure info then Ground for permission and directions to taxi to the runway.
paflyer
Final Approach
I think we can stop now.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Call ground.
Logic. If you don't need a clearance you don't need to call clearance delivery.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Ground issues an altitude restriction, beacon code, and taxi instructions. Tower issues a heading and takeoff clearance. That's it.
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
Sorry for
I just noticed that the glossary definition of an "air traffic clearance" that you cited from the FAA's order re ATC procedures explicitly references a a "VFR air traffic clearance." You agree?
With that in mind - How about what I typically receive at John Wayne? Isn't this a "VFR clearance" since it includes a specific heading and altitude restriction and, thus, is an authorization from ATC "for the purpose of preventing collision," for me "to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace"?
907SL: JW Clearance, 907SL, at Dove, El Toro Departure to French Valley
CD: 907SL, turn left 080, maintain VFR at or below 3000, frequency 124.1, squawk 0270
MAKG1
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An example of a VFR clearance would be
"Remain south and east of Highway 101, maintain 3500, cleared into Class B"
What you're getting is an instruction, not a clearance. If you are NOT given the instruction, you can still fly in Class C (as long as you've heard your call sign). If you don't hear the magic words "Cleared into Class B" and you fly around in it, you can expect to explain yourself.
No authorization is required to fly in Class C VFR. You can't say the same thing for Class B.
I routinely transition Class C with no instructions. Occasionally, Approach will ask my intentions, but if I stay well away from the extended centerlines for SJC (which is not hard to do), Approach will keep silent. Aside from the handoff, of course.
"Remain south and east of Highway 101, maintain 3500, cleared into Class B"
What you're getting is an instruction, not a clearance. If you are NOT given the instruction, you can still fly in Class C (as long as you've heard your call sign). If you don't hear the magic words "Cleared into Class B" and you fly around in it, you can expect to explain yourself.
No authorization is required to fly in Class C VFR. You can't say the same thing for Class B.
I routinely transition Class C with no instructions. Occasionally, Approach will ask my intentions, but if I stay well away from the extended centerlines for SJC (which is not hard to do), Approach will keep silent. Aside from the handoff, of course.
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fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
You're wrong. Not sure why you're unable to admit it.
I was looking for a cite from the FAA, not your opinion.
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fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Nonsense. 2 way communication must be established with ATC. That's your authorization.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Sorry for
That's a fairly popular pastime in this forum.
Of course. It's a little wordy for my taste, it could be reduced to "The pilot-in-command of an aircraft may not deviate from the provisions of an air traffic clearance except in an emergency or unless an amended clearance has been obtained."
I posted that definition in response to the example JimNtexas provided for VFR departures from KAUS. Just a beacon code and departure frequency. Does that sound like a clearance to you?
A clearance is required to operate under IFR in controlled airspace, so if you're departing IFR from an airport with a CD frequency it's logical to make your first call to CD. A clearance is not required to operate VFR in Class C airspace. So if you're departing VFR from an airport in Class C airspace, absent some notice in the A/FD or ATIS, there's no logical reason to call CD.
MAKG1
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That two way communication may have been in effect long before getting anywhere near Class C, perhaps even without ATC knowing you're going there.
The obvious example is flight following from a distant location to an airport near, but not in, Class C. I do this ALL the time.
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fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
You're correct, but you still cannot enter class C without being in contact with ATC.
To say no authorization is required is misleading.
If I'm on the CTAF at a small airport just outside of the class C, finish my touch and goes and contact approach to tell them I'm inbound for a full stop, they can ignore me and I can't enter... It HAS happened to me on a busy day.
To say no authorization is required is misleading.
If I'm on the CTAF at a small airport just outside of the class C, finish my touch and goes and contact approach to tell them I'm inbound for a full stop, they can ignore me and I can't enter... It HAS happened to me on a busy day.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Sure you can. §91.130 Operations in Class C airspace starts off with, "Unless otherwise authorized by ATC..." You just have to make the arrangements in advance and obtain that authorization.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
Which is still obtaining permission from ATC... since you're nit picking.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Well, if that ain't a clearance, you'd best stay out of Class B airspace because a clearance is required for entry. But since that "instruction" contained the word "cleared", I'm pretty sure you're good to go.
roncachamp
Final Approach
I've never had a problem admitting I'm wrong, but I need to be shown that I'm wrong before I can do that. So please explain why you feel I'm wrong.
If one existed I'd have provided it. You'll have to settle for logic.
fiveoboy01
Pattern Altitude
I'll settle for your opinion, which is no more correct or incorrect than mine.