Civil Air Patrol questions

I think CAP suffers from the same thing that a lot of volunteers fire department and rescue squads experience: membership of over enthusiastic folks who want to join for lights & sirens, ranks and uniforms (ie prestige), bragging rights, rather than a true commitment to the mission.

It's not that organizationally CAP is flawed in any way, it's more that it's an attractive nuisance for a certain type of person that will ultimately misrepresent the organization. If there is indeed a flaw, it's on the ability of the leadership to weed those type of people out...which is always a challenge when you're dealing with a volunteer organization that always needs resources and leaders who don't want to devote their time to taking on challenging personnel issues.
 
Brad Z said:
I think CAP suffers from the same thing that a lot of volunteers fire department and rescue squads experience: membership of over enthusiastic folks who want to join for lights & sirens, ranks and uniforms (ie prestige), bragging rights, rather than a true commitment to the mission.

It's not that organizationally CAP is flawed in any way, it's more that it's an attractive nuisance for a certain type of person that will ultimately misrepresent the organization. If there is indeed a flaw, it's on the ability of the leadership to weed those type of people out...which is always a challenge when you're dealing with a volunteer organization that always needs resources and leaders who don't want to devote their time to taking on challenging personnel issues.
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Quite often the douchebags are also the most reliable and useful, even if they're doing it for the wrong reasons.
 
Brad Z said:
I think CAP suffers from the same thing that a lot of volunteers fire department and rescue squads experience: membership of over enthusiastic folks who want to join for lights & sirens, ranks and uniforms (ie prestige), bragging rights, rather than a true commitment to the mission.

It's not that organizationally CAP is flawed in any way, it's more that it's an attractive nuisance for a certain type of person that will ultimately misrepresent the organization. If there is indeed a flaw, it's on the ability of the leadership to weed those type of people out...which is always a challenge when you're dealing with a volunteer organization that always needs resources and leaders who don't want to devote their time to taking on challenging personnel issues.
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The thing is that there is no meaningful “missions” for CAP ,just as there is no real mission for Boy Scouts ( except indirectly as a leaning experience for young minds - albeit that’s debatable if that’s the right way of learning - to me this whole enterprise with Boy Scouts smells of “statism” a bit too much - I guess certainly better than the current “gender-race-whatever” drivel that is being pushed on kids these days )
 
Warmi said:
The thing is that there is no meaningful “missions” for CAP ,just as there is no real mission for Boy Scouts ( except indirectly as a leaning experience for young minds - albeit that’s debatable if that’s the right way of learning - to me this whole enterprise with Boy Scouts smells of “statism” a bit too much - I guess certainly better than the current “gender-race-whatever” drivel that is being pushed on kids these days )
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I think the Boy Scouts has a pretty clear vision: it's about developing boys (err young people...) ethics and values to be consistent with the scout law.

But boy scouts is for the boys, not the adult leaders. Sure the adult leaders may get something out of it, but the focus is on keeping the boys out of trouble and becoming good leaders and good people in general.

CAP, in contrast, seems to try to do too much and be all things to all people. During my time in, the cadet aspect of the organization never seemed to gel well with the operational mission of a USAF auxiliary.

it's been a few years since I've been in. But my son is almost 8 and is an avid Cub Scout. When he graduates from Cubs, there will likely be a question of whether to pursue CAP with him or move up to Boy Scouts.
 
RonP said:
A co-worker joined the CAP for something to do. He was never in the military and is not a pilot. He joined for the experience and was in logistics. He was in long enough to attain the rank of Major. His company business card and email signature has “Retired Major USAF/A” where the /A means adjunct. We work with the military and he introduces himself as a retired USAF Major. He also considers himself a veteran and entitled to the company’s veteran policies such as Veteran’s day off and other veteran policies. Is this appropriate or in bad taste?
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This is bringing back memories of the last time I got my driver's license renewed. I got the temporary paper until the real one came in the mail. I opened the envelope and headed right back over to the DMV to complain and get re-issued. For some reason it had been marked in big red letters with "VETERAN". I couldn't wait to get that cleared up before someone noticed and thought I was cheating. Your guy seems "off".
 
The original story here reminds me of a story I read in the newspaper once. yeah it was a long time ago.

Seems some lady got herself elected into the city council, I don't remember where, and she demanded that she be called be her former rank. She was retired from the marines and demanded that the other council members call her ''Captain''.

The other members got together and finally agreed to call her captain if she agreed to call them by their educational achievement.

The other members all had master degrees....
 
At work, a large percentage of employees had PhDs. Only a very few insisted on being called "doctor". Without fail, every one of those were most definitely not the best and brightest.
 
Bob Noel said:
At work, a large percentage of employees had PhDs. Only a very few insisted on being called "doctor". Without fail, every one of those were most definitely not the best and brightest.
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I was working as a Govt sub-contractor a few years ago. Our company lead was PhD and made sure everyone knew it - business cards, signature on emails, everytime he introduced himself to someone new, yada yada yada....Couple months in, bunch of us were just chatting over someone's birthday cake (us 2 subs and 6 Govvies) and it turns out every one of the Govvies was PhD. Loved the look on the lead's face.
 
Warmi said:
The thing is that there is no meaningful “missions” for CAP ,just as there is no real mission for Boy Scouts ( except indirectly as a leaning experience for young minds - albeit that’s debatable if that’s the right way of learning - to me this whole enterprise with Boy Scouts smells of “statism” a bit too much - I guess certainly better than the current “gender-race-whatever” drivel that is being pushed on kids these days )
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Actually there are legit emergency missions, just not many, and most of the time, are geographically limited or weather related. Here's what we do in Colorado all the time:
  • Floods, snow storms, etc - CAP is incredibly cheap for photo missions for insurance, FEMA, etc.
  • Stranded people/livestock - CAP is incredibly cheap to locate same, then provide location to ground and other operational groups
  • Firewatch - again, CAP is incredibly cheap to go out 2-3 times a day to look for indication of forest fires, then provide location to local operations.
Non-Emergency activities:
  • Provide Rocketry, UAS, Cybersecurity and STEM materials, training & support to many schools and organizations - it's not just for the cadets
Other emergency support nationwide:
  • Flew photo reconnaissance and damage-assessment missions over the World Trade Center (911)
  • Gloods and hurricanes in California and the SouthEast
  • Oil spills in the gulf
  • Transported thousands of pints of blood (911)
We're the best gofers around. Yes, we're a line item in the USAF budget (so small, it's pocket change) but we get borrowed by Homeland Security, FEMA, the local state and/or counties, the Army, etc. We're cheap and we're available.

The State's Pilatus, or Natl. Guard resources can run many thousands of dollars an hour - we're in the very low hundreds of dollars an hour. It's cheaper to waste our time. We're also "force" multipliers because we can get 2-3 aircraft in the air over the area in question in 30-45 min, and can do this over the entire state, since there are 2-3 aircraft based in each of 5 or 6 locations.

Go ahead, make fun of us because the cadets get overly obnoxious at air shows, some adults are egotists, and far too many can't get into a uniform (I wear the khakis and polo shirt). But when 4 of you flatlanders from Ohio decide to follow I-70 to go skiing at Keystone, you'll be happy we're the ones finding your 172. Your estate will thank us.
 
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Brad Z said:
I think the Boy Scouts has a pretty clear vision: it's about developing boys (err young people...) ethics and values to be consistent with the scout law.

But boy scouts is for the boys, not the adult leaders. Sure the adult leaders may get something out of it, but the focus is on keeping the boys out of trouble and becoming good leaders and good people in general.

CAP, in contrast, seems to try to do too much and be all things to all people. During my time in, the cadet aspect of the organization never seemed to gel well with the operational mission of a USAF auxiliary.

it's been a few years since I've been in. But my son is almost 8 and is an avid Cub Scout. When he graduates from Cubs, there will likely be a question of whether to pursue CAP with him or move up to Boy Scouts.
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Remember, every squadron has its own "personality". Plus the cadet and senior squadrons are drastically different.
 
Brad Z said:
I think CAP suffers from the same thing that a lot of volunteers fire department and rescue squads experience: membership of over enthusiastic folks who want to join for lights & sirens, ranks and uniforms (ie prestige), bragging rights, rather than a true commitment to the mission.
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After I got bored with CAP, I joined a fire department. The difference is that there IS a mission. People do get sick, wreck their cars and light their yard on fire. The reason you crawl out of bed at 2am when the pager goes off is the mission, not a cool t-shirt. So yes, there are the occasional 'T-shirt firefighters', but they represent a small minority, at least in the department(s) that I run with.

It's the lack of a mission that ails CAP. Everything else follows from there.
 
kep5niner said:
I was astonished at the politics and showboating of this civilian organization.
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Same. I joined with high hopes to be part of like-minded people and do something different with aviation. My impression was their primary focus is paperwork and fake ranks. The actual flying, in any capacity, being reserved for only a few people who could tolerate going through mountains of paperwork... after 6 months of dutifully attending meetings, buying the clothes and contributing in whatever manner I could I realized it was not right for me..
 
I only wear a CAP uniform when they make me.
 
I don't mind the uniform, and have nothing against enforcing that kind of uniformity.. but that could also be due to the schools I went to growing up. I was a member of the scouts and loved it, made great friends and learned a lot. These are basic skills all people, I believe, should have..

My issue with CAP was the political structure of it. Aviation seemed incidental. I understand each squadron is going to have its different attributes, so I can only speak to my six months of experience
 
Brad Z said:
I think CAP suffers from the same thing that a lot of volunteers fire department and rescue squads experience: membership of over enthusiastic folks who want to join for lights & sirens, ranks and uniforms (ie prestige), bragging rights, rather than a true commitment to the mission.
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Well, just pulled up the CAPtalk forum for the first time in awhile.

2/3 of the last 30 posts are actively discussing how appropriate it is to wear chukkas, cowboy boots, or knit hats while in uniform...:dunno:
 
I have no problem with the CAP mission…just the $&@$ Bag who misrepresented himself for personal gain…
 
Warmi said:
The thing is that there is no meaningful “missions” for CAP
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Varies from place to place. Not so much searching for accidently activated ELTs anymore. I understand each state has things unique to their state. Hawaii flies tsunami warning flight with a loud speaker warning people to move to higher ground. I believe states along the Mississippi River fly levee inspections on a regular basis.

In NC, CAP works with the US Army to train new forward air controllers, the controllers who run airports in forward areas. Our planes fly a little slower and cost much less to operate. We're also involved with photography for emergency management, providing up to date pictures. There are ground missions too, missing person searches and emergency supplies distribution after storms.

Something we don't do, but which I think would be very useful is to fly over flood/disaster prone areas before disasters hit so there are before/after images or video. We could program flight plans and fly the same profile at the same speed each time to have comparison images.
 
CAP is good for guys who want to stay in the air once a month or so without paying for it. It's also good for people who really like working with teenagers and will be happy making that their focus vs. actually flying.

If you expect it to be more than that, save yourself the trouble. And yeah, it's a lot of jumping through hoops. With that said, if you are a CFI, you'll have all the flying you want because most wings have a shortage of instructors and check pilots. But by that point in your flying career, you probably like getting paid for your work, so flying free for CAP may not be that appealing.

I go back and forth on it. I'm still in and fly a few times a month instructing just because I enjoy it, but once I'm done with the CFI game, I'll probably not have the time or energy for CAP.
 
I've posted on this topic a couple of times.
When I was in the CAP it was a life changing experience.
I was in Peekskill Composite Squadron, Westchester Group (New York) from 1964 until I enlisted in the Air Force in 1969.
I went from a Cadet Third Class to Cadet Captain, and became the Cadet Commander of the squadron before I left.
During that time I had 276 Search and Rescue sorties. We were awarded 2 Unit Citations for outstanding search and rescue missions. One of those missions lasted over a month.
As part of the Westchester Group, I went on CAP trips to the Redstone Arsenal (in a C-97), competed twice at the International Drill Competition in Montreal Canada 1966/1967 (in C-119s), and went to Buckley Field Colorado for jet orientation (F-100s)
We also had a minimum of two military encampments every year, Ft Slocum, Camp Smith, Griffiss AFB, Plattsburg AFB, and others, where we trained in every aspect of search and rescue including search techniques, first aid, winter and summer survival, radio operations, even setting up and operating a field kitchen. I got my ham license through the CAP and was part of the National CAP Emergency network every Tuesday night.
We drilled, took aviation related classes and weapons training every Wednesday night. And we flew, a lot. We had a B-25, a B-17, 3 PA-18s, 2 T-34's, a Navion, and a Bamboo Bomber. Sadly we had to give up the B-17 and B-25 in 1965. The B-17 to the Coast Guard and they converted it to drop life rafts. The Air Force took back the B-25 for some General.

When I got out of the Air Force in 1973 I thought about getting back in, but Peekskill Squadron, no longer existed and I just didn't have time. I had kids, I was working full time at IBM and I was going to college 5 nights a week and all day Saturday.
When I moved to my current home, I decided to look up my old friends from Poughkeepsie Squadron. During my time in the CAP we used to stage out of KPOU in Poughkeepsie, I knew everyone in the squadron. It's true. You can never go home. No one was left, they hadn't done a SAR mission since 1971. I still don't know what it is they actually do.
Very sad ending to what was once a really great program.
 
Weird, typical stolen valor stuff doesn't bother me (dbags gonn dbag) but a CAP doing it really annoys me for some reason.
 
Not just a MAJOR! He also SANK a U-BOAT with his Stinson ...
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While I was attending San Jose State, I was asked to fly some local flights with a group of Explorer Scouts (I think that is what they were called) and the plan was to use the local CAP Hawk XP.

I volunteered for the job and gave up after experiencing the mind boggling BS involved in getting the approval to fly the CAP airplane. They made it nearly impossible to get anything done and it would have taken several weeks and flights to be signed off as PIC/CFI.

I'm guessing there was plenty of money changing colors between all the parties involved.
 
Warlock said:
Most people don’t even know that many National Guard and Reservist are not considered Veterans. If you do not serve more than 179 days in a row while on federal orders, you don’t meet the criteria. Training is not counted…so a pure NG member may never hit that criteria even if they spend a year or two training for their MOS. A recent change in the law made anyone with 20 years of service in this status a Veteran. There is an exception if you are permanently disabled or killed during training.
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There is a difference in being considered a veteran and getting veterans benefits.
 
Bob Noel said:
I'm a little confused/uncertain.

Was the guy in the CAP "long enough to attain the rank of Major"? As in the CAP "rank" of Major?
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For Senior members, the only enlisted ranks are for prior senior enlisted that want to keep that rank. There are 3 levels of Flight Officer ranks for Senior members between the age of 18 and 21. Cadets can be 12 to 21. So there is the overlap where they could be Cadet or Senior member.

Otherwise there is the rank of Senior Member, then 2LT up to General (CAP Commander). You can attain rank by doing certain milestone training or by having certain skills. A CFI can start as a Capt and other skills (lawyer, doctor) can have a higher rank . If you have prior military service, you can receive the rank you had in the service. Full Colonel is for Wing Commanders and above, but once they get that rank, they keep it.

Currently CAP has time limits for certain jobs such as Squadron Commander, Group Commander, Wing Commander, Region Commander. So no more holding a position forever.

Cadets have a different rank structure, that follows the USAFs, all of them up to Colonel. All are clearly referred to as Cadet RRRRN, such as Cadet Sargent, Cade Major. For Cadet enlisted they have metal collar tabs with stripes. Cadet officers wear pips. Round for company grade, diamonds for field grade. So 3 round pips is Cadet Major, 2 Diamond pips is Cadet LtCol.

Senior member officers wear gray epaulets with normal officer rank. On utility uniforms they wear the bright rank on a royal blue background
 
Interesting how the official CAP websight describes themselves…did not no it was a private, non-profit auxiliary like a garden club…

“CAP membership does not equate to membership in the military. CAP is a private, non-profit humanitarian organization, which is the official auxiliary of the United States Air Force.”
 
Pinecone said:
For Senior members, the only enlisted ranks are for prior senior enlisted that want to keep that rank. There are 3 levels of Flight Officer ranks for Senior members between the age of 18 and 21. Cadets can be 12 to 21. So there is the overlap where they could be Cadet or Senior member.

Otherwise there is the rank of Senior Member, then 2LT up to General (CAP Commander). You can attain rank by doing certain milestone training or by having certain skills. A CFI can start as a Capt and other skills (lawyer, doctor) can have a higher rank . If you have prior military service, you can receive the rank you had in the service. Full Colonel is for Wing Commanders and above, but once they get that rank, they keep it.

Currently CAP has time limits for certain jobs such as Squadron Commander, Group Commander, Wing Commander, Region Commander. So no more holding a position forever.

Cadets have a different rank structure, that follows the USAFs, all of them up to Colonel. All are clearly referred to as Cadet RRRRN, such as Cadet Sargent, Cade Major. For Cadet enlisted they have metal collar tabs with stripes. Cadet officers wear pips. Round for company grade, diamonds for field grade. So 3 round pips is Cadet Major, 2 Diamond pips is Cadet LtCol.

Senior member officers wear gray epaulets with normal officer rank. On utility uniforms they wear the bright rank on a royal blue background
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I have rank tabs for the white dress shirt that I’ve worn exactly once in many, many years. The polo shirts don’t indicate rank and that’s what most of us wear because most of us know that for seniors, it’s more like scout badges.
 
Warlock said:
Interesting how the official CAP websight describes themselves…did not no it was a private, non-profit auxiliary like a garden club…
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There are garden clubs that are officially mandated auxiliaries of a U.S. Military organization?
 
My local private non profit, Garden club gets city tax payer money to plant flowers in the community…seems like a parallel…seems like the same set up…and if you can’t see the humor in that…sorry
 
murphey said:
I have rank tabs for the white dress shirt that I’ve worn exactly once in many, many years. The polo shirts don’t indicate rank and that’s what most of us wear because most of us know that for seniors, it’s more like scout badges.
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They are also worn on the tunic of blues (USAF uniform), but not many people wear that uniform. Especially due to the grooming standards and the height/weight limits.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't know whether they fly those missions with ammo/missiles onboard or not.
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They will be carrying live.

The ANG provides nearly all of the alert forces defending the US. In New Orleans all the full time guard guys sat 3-4 shifts per month and traditional guardsmen sat at least one. Each pilot will scramble (actual or practice) at least once a qtr- always in alert jets which are always armed. It’s good practice when we get CAP support as targets but there’s always way more paperwork than necessary when the CAP is involved. (IME)
 
EvilEagle said:
They will be carrying live.

The ANG provides nearly all of the alert forces defending the US. In New Orleans all the full time guard guys sat 3-4 shifts per month and traditional guardsmen sat at least one. Each pilot will scramble (actual or practice) at least once a qtr- always in alert jets which are always armed. It’s good practice when we get CAP support as targets but there’s always way more paperwork than necessary when the CAP is involved. (IME)
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In Cal Wing, I see requests for CAP pilots to fly target sorties about once a month, so I guess the paperwork is being managed. Bureaucratic excess definitely happens in CAP, however.
 
IK04 said:
While I was attending San Jose State, I was asked to fly some local flights with a group of Explorer Scouts (I think that is what they were called) and the plan was to use the local CAP Hawk XP.

I volunteered for the job and gave up after experiencing the mind boggling BS involved in getting the approval to fly the CAP airplane. They made it nearly impossible to get anything done and it would have taken several weeks and flights to be signed off as PIC/CFI.

I'm guessing there was plenty of money changing colors between all the parties involved.
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Colorado policy is no one other than CAP and Colorado CAP-CO approved people are allowed to fly in a CAP airplane. Makes life much simpler.

On the other hand, there's the EAA Young Eagle program. In Colorado, we have 3 chapters along the Front Range that fly YE once a month during the nicer months. Then we have one chapter that's so busy, it's not even on the EAA website. EAA301 operates at KAPA & KCFO, and both locations were completely booked for the year back in February. KCFO is primarily groups (scouts, schools, NGOs but always a few individuals) and the next opening for a group is Feb 2024. KAPA has a waiting list for this year, won't start taking names for 2024 until December.

The FAA asked us to do a special rally in July - the Wed before Airventure....right. sure. of course. We'll figure out a way. Hm...perhaps we can get a few TO/L at DIA during the rally?
 
CAP rules allow limited people to fly in CAP aircraft. AFJRROTC can do orientation flights in CAP aircraft. There is also the TOPS program for STEM teachers to have a special CAP membership and get orientation rides.

It took me 2 flight (one onboarding practice and one check ride) to get CAP qualified for VFR, IFR, transport missions and cadet orientations and G1000 qualified.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I have two friends who are active in the Civil Air Patrol. I know they do some good things, but over the years, I have observed a lot of questionable behavior. We had a CAP safety meeting at our airport, and at one point they were taking off in opposite directions on the same runway. Some were out simulating an emergency at the same time we had a real emergency at our airport, and they never knew. A CAP search and rescue mission in northern Wisconsin went on a couple of days, but the actual downed airplane was spotted by someone else without the radio equipment to detect a ELT signal.

One of my friends who flys for the CAP had a flat tire on landing. They made him pay for it.

But the real topper is watching fat old CAP guys bossing around the young people in fatigues at AirVenture. Pathetic.
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My experiences with (and as a) CAP pilot is they're mostly on a par with other GA pilots. They screw up at about the same frequency - it's just easier to notice and remember their airplanes and call signs. Their gaffs aren't unique to CAP - I've seen the same blunders by generic GA pilots often enough.
 
The bureaucracy at CAP is super thick - so much so that I stepped away after 14 years or so. It's especially onerous for pilots; scheduling and releasing flights can vary from not bad to a half-day frustration marathon. Squadrons vary tremendously; I was in the DC area, suburban MD, and most of our pilots were ex-military, some rated officers, some former NCOs, etc. 99.99% of the time our uniform was a polo shirt with logo and gray pants. Some very solid and well qualified pilots, but it was tough to hang on to them becuse CAP could waste a LOT of your time. . .
 
Had a couple of elderly gentlemen in CAP polos at the Tulsa Air & Space Museum this past weekend who were folding paper airplanes for the kids and seemed to helping promote STEM/enthusiasm for aviation. I didn't get much of a chance to speak with them as I was keeping a tight leash on my kids at the time, but I appreciated them being a part of the event. I've never had any bad experiences with CAP guys, but I've also only met one of their senior members so it's not much to go on.
 
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