CFI Responsibility

H

Headache

Guest
Howdy y’all,I have an odd scenario for you to think about.Not trying to make trouble just wondering what other people’s take is on it.

I’m a 95 hr private pilot,learned in a nose wheel then bought a tailwheel to transition into and fly.Tailwheel endorsement was never completed due to a wreck during dual instruction (departed right side of runway,hit a ditch,high wing identifying as low wing,bad day.)I didn’t have insurance,I know I know,stupid,but I was going to wait till the endorsement and had built a few tw hr to lower rates.Instructor had no insurance,so no help there.

Question is,how responsible is my instructor for the accident?I wasn’t signed of,no tw endorsement,I was rated for type just not the tailwheel.Im not trying to be nasty or anything to my I instructor just wondering what the proper way to go about it is.The way I look at is,no insurance involved,I’m screwed,end of story.Putting myself in the CFI’s shoes I’d feel responsible beings an pre-solo pilot was in there and I was in command.The wreck wasn’t reported so don’t go looking for it,you won’t find it.Circumstances didn’t necessitate reporting and I thought might as well not but now I’m not so sure.Any opinions?Thanks!
 
Since you had no insurance on the plane your in a tough spot. The instructor was not named as named pilot on the plane. Going to be difficult to recover any costs.
 
A real lawyer wil be along shortly. From the bleachers I'd guess that you'd have to prove intent or neglect. Here's some interesting reading ...

A Primer on Aircraft Flight Instructor Liability | Hoff Law Group

www.aviationattorney.com www.aviationattorney.com

"A person who claims someone is liable or responsible for a negligent act under a theory of negligence must establish certain basic elements. These elements are duty, a breach of that duty, and some injury or damage directly and proximately caused by the breach of duty.[2] Any aviation incident typically will involve some sort of money damage to property or physical injury to a person, so this element merits minimal discussion here. Duty is where the battle lines will be drawn and the legal war fought."
 
With no insurance and no agreement ahead of time on financial responsibility, I’d feel bad, but would not be offering to help. I’d be more likely to give you advice on insurance. I’m assuming you were on the controls. Even if you were just shadowing, it’s on you IMO. If you were just watching, that’s a different story.
 
Headache said:
I’m a 95 hr private pilot,learned in a nose wheel then bought a tailwheel to transition into and fly. Tailwheel endorsement was never completed due to a wreck during dual instruction (departed right side of runway,hit a ditch,high wing identifying as low wing,bad day.) I didn’t have insurance,
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So, you owned the plane, you were in the left-hand seat, you have a PPL, you were flying the plane, and you had no insurance.

Ouch.

When I raced cars, we used to have this saying:

"If you can't afford to wad it up and walk away from it, don't leave the garage."

Harsh, but honest.
 
Thanks for the replies,that was pretty much what I was expecting to hear.With my 20/20 hindsight that high insurance would be cheap now lol.

Thankfully we didn’t get hurt and the airplane is fixable,im working on it under the supervision of a retired but current A&P IA friend.Who knows,may lead into a mechanic career.

I’m definitely not looking to go after my CFI,I still want to be friends with him but he is doing a fair job of avoiding me unfortunately.He has been in a few bumps in the last few years and that combined with other things I will look elsewhere for instruction upon completion of the repairs.Having said that I still want to be friends with him

Fly safe and keep it straight!
 
Headache said:
Howdy y’all,I have an odd scenario for you to think about.Not trying to make trouble just wondering what other people’s take is on it.

I’m a 95 hr private pilot,learned in a nose wheel then bought a tailwheel to transition into and fly.Tailwheel endorsement was never completed due to a wreck during dual instruction (departed right side of runway,hit a ditch,high wing identifying as low wing,bad day.)I didn’t have insurance,I know I know,stupid,but I was going to wait till the endorsement and had built a few tw hr to lower rates.Instructor had no insurance,so no help there.

Question is,how responsible is my instructor for the accident?I wasn’t signed of,no tw endorsement,I was rated for type just not the tailwheel.Im not trying to be nasty or anything to my I instructor just wondering what the proper way to go about it is.The way I look at is,no insurance involved,I’m screwed,end of story.Putting myself in the CFI’s shoes I’d feel responsible beings an pre-solo pilot was in there and I was in command.The wreck wasn’t reported so don’t go looking for it,you won’t find it.Circumstances didn’t necessitate reporting and I thought might as well not but now I’m not so sure.Any opinions?Thanks!
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My opinion? What a clown show. Tail wheel operations and training are relatively high risk. So you decide to pass on insurance while you are learning to land a tail wheel airplane? Had you purchased insurance, the policy would have been rather restrictive and expensive given your low pilot time, no tail wheel time and training in the tail wheel airplane.

Both you and your CFI are dumber than a box of rocks for training in a tail wheel aircraft without both being insured for both hull and liability. If you borrowed money to buy the plane, you are probably in violation of your loan agreement.

No you weren’t rated for type. A type rating is a make and model placed on your pilots certificate. You were certificated as a private pilot with an airplane category and a single engine land class privileges.

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered “substantial damage” for the purpose of required reporting. If you were required to report and didn’t, that is on you because you are the person who authorized the flight.

Some states have specific law stating the CFI is PIC unless otherwise expressed in writing. Your CFI was legally the PIC. 61.31 prohibits you from acting as PIC until you have completed the training and received the tail wheel endorsement. If you had been insured, unless the insurance covered the CFI, the insurance could subrogate against your CFI to collect claims paid.

91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

Legally your CFI is on the hook if you opt to sue him in my view for negligent instruction at the most and minimally failing to fulfill the terms of a verbal training contract You contracted the CFI to train you in the safe operation of the aircraft. That didn’t occur.

You need an attorney.
 
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Clip4 said:
Some states have specific law stating the CFI is PIC
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You have me curious. Do you have an example of one? I’ve never needed to look for one, so I have never seen one.

Edit: I did a query of all state statutes and regulations for the terms "pilot in command" and "instructor." I found one in the Indiana Administrative Code which applies to lighter-than-air aircraft.
 
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Ohio Section 4561.23 | Presumption of pilot-in-command in airplane crash.​


In the event of an airplane crash involving personal injuries, death, or property damage, it is rebuttably presumed that the airplane was being flown at the time of the crash, and immediately prior thereto, by the pilot-in-command of such airplane when the airplane is occupied by more than one person.

The "pilot-in-command" is rebuttably presumed to be:

(A) The occupant of the left front seat in airplanes having side-by-side and fore-and-aft seating;

(B) The occupant of the left seat of an airplane which has only one transverse seat;

(C) In a tandem seated airplane, the occupant of the seat recommended by the manufacturer of such airplane when the airplane is flown solo.

(D) Notwithstanding divisions (A), (B), and (C) of this section, the occupant of the airplane possessed of an instructor's rating is rebuttably presumed to be the pilot-in-command when any part of the flight is for the purpose of instructing another in any phase of flying or navigating.

(E) Notwithstanding divisions (A), (B), (C), and (D) of this section, in all flights conducted under instrument flight rules the pilot-in-command is rebuttably presumed to be the pilot whose name appears on the flight plan.

(F) In the event that the occupants and their positions in the airplane at the time of the crash cannot be established otherwise from the evidence with reasonable certainty, it is presumed that the airplane was being flown at the time of the crash, and immediately prior thereto, by the person occupying the pilot-in-command seat, as designated above, during or immediately before take-off.
 
Being PIC does not automatically make you liable for damages, so the point is moot anyway.
 
The CFI probably has some liability, but there are situations where there's what's legally true, and possibly not morally true. I can and do provide tailwheel instruction, and there are times when a CFI can communicate very clearly and accurately what is to be accomplished, and the student can still do things that are extremely difficult to prevent or fix.

You'll need to search your own conscience, as guided by wisdom and knowledge to know what is right in this situation, even if something else is legal.

If the CFI didn't make sure y'all had insurance, though, it sounds like he may have some judgment issues in that direction, maybe a little too hungry for work, not able to say "no" - or he was doing it from a charity perspective, which is rarely good policy.
 
Triply not smart.

You not having insurance. Instructor instructing without being named insured or even meeting open pilot clause on your policy, except you didn't have one. Instructor instructing without insurance.
 
Salty said:
Being PIC does not automatically make you liable for damages, so the point is moot anyway.
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The other part is that a number of states have statutes or regulations which parrot the FAA regs. Gives the state legislature or agency something "important" to do ;) The NTSB has been on record since at least 1977 that a CFI giving instruction has responsibility equivalent to the PIC, so the principle exists independent of any state-specific rules. And, as you point out, even the NTSB cases don't treat it as automatic liability.
 
Headache said:
Question is,how responsible is my instructor for the accident?
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You haven't given nearly enough information for anyone to give an opinion on that. As others have said, if you're looking to hold your instructor responsible, or even if you just want an informed opinion on that, you need to consult an attorney.
 
Salty said:
We established years ago that we will never do business together. I don't see that ever changing. Just about every one of your posts cement that more than the last.

Also, I'd bet money that's a lie.
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There are plenty of students out there and I don’t take students who have an aircraft accident history.
 
Oh boy, you should have had insurance! The rate is higher bc you are in the most risky time period, as you discovered.

What model plane was it? How many hours in that model did your instructor have?
 
I should’ve made it clear earlier that I’m not intending to go after my cfi in any way but instead was just wondering how this all works.Its been a few months and I have a lot of time to think about it,just not sure how to take it all.I fully take the responsibility of not having insurance,it wasn’t smart but a lot of the guys around home don’t have it and I figured why not.Who plans on wrecking anyways lol.

I’m young and self funded so it may end my flying for a few years all depends how it wraps up.Tough luck but you’ll have that on them big jobs.Coulda been much worse.

As far as the airplane,it was a luscombe and my instructor didn’t have a lot of time in it or luscombes for that matter.He as a great tw pilot,has a lot of cub hours but I got the impression the luscombe had him a bit jumpy.He’s also older and his reflexes aren’t what they used to be.Its not that I put it any wrong control inputs he had to counter but rather I just didn’t do enough quick enough
Better luck next time;)
 
Headache said:
I should’ve made it clear earlier that I’m not intending to go after my cfi in any way but instead was just wondering how this all works.Its been a few months and I have a lot of time to think about it,just not sure how to take it all.I fully take the responsibility of not having insurance,it wasn’t smart but a lot of the guys around home don’t have it and I figured why not.Who plans on wrecking anyways lol.

I’m young and self funded so it may end my flying for a few years all depends how it wraps up.Tough luck but you’ll have that on them big jobs.Coulda been much worse.

As far as the airplane,it was a luscombe and my instructor didn’t have a lot of time in it or luscombes for that matter.He as a great tw pilot,has a lot of cub hours but I got the impression the luscombe had him a bit jumpy.He’s also older and his reflexes aren’t what they used to be.Its not that I put it any wrong control inputs he had to counter but rather I just didn’t do enough quick enough
Better luck next time;)
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I fly a Luscombe as an instructor. If you feel comfortable, shoot me a DM.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Too bad. Working with pilots who have been having difficulty is very rewarding.
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I draw the line for working with pilots having difficulty at post plane bashing.
Headache said:
I should’ve made it clear earlier that I’m not intending to go after my cfi in any way but instead was just wondering how this all works.Its been a few months and I have a lot of time to think about it,just not sure how to take it all.I fully take the responsibility of not having insurance,it wasn’t smart but a lot of the guys around home don’t have it and I figured why not.Who plans on wrecking anyways lol.

I’m young and self funded so it may end my flying for a few years all depends how it wraps up.Tough luck but you’ll have that on them big jobs.Coulda been much worse.

As far as the airplane,it was a luscombe and my instructor didn’t have a lot of time in it or luscombes for that matter.He as a great tw pilot,has a lot of cub hours but I got the impression the luscombe had him a bit jumpy.He’s also older and his reflexes aren’t what they used to be.Its not that I put it any wrong control inputs he had to counter but rather I just didn’t do enough quick enough
Better luck next time;)
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If he is older, you likely wouldn’t get much in a law suit anyway. Social security, defined pensions, and retirement accounts are protected in most states and why he didn’t bother with insurance.
 
Clip4 said:
I draw the line for working with pilots having difficulty at post plane bashing.

If he is older, you likely wouldn’t get much in a law suit anyway. Social security, defined pensions, and retirement accounts are protected in most states and why he didn’t bother with insurance.
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Dig dig dig.

Scenario: you are instructing a student who has a momentary lapse, screws up, ground loops, and takes out a runway light. Enough damage to be reportable.

After that, you’d better stop flying because you don’t fly with people that have had an accident. You stated earlier that an instructor is responsible for the flight, so it’s your accident.

And if you say you wouldn’t allow a student to have such an accident, you are a liar. Either to yourself or us.

Hazardous attitude: invulnerability.
 
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Salty said:
Dig dig dig.

Scenario: you are instructing a student who has a momentary lapse, screws up, ground loops, and takes out a runway light. Enough damage to be reportable.

After that, you’d better stop flying because you don’t fly with people that have had an accident. You stated earlier that an instructor is responsible for the flight, so it’s your accident.

And if you say you wouldn’t allow a student to have such an accident, you are a liar. Either to yourself or us.

Hazardous attitude: invulnerability.
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If you become a CFI, you can let the students have mental lapses and let the chain of events continue until the plane runs off the runway and takes out the lights. I chose to intervene before that happens. You do that by setting limits you will allow a student to stray so you can recover the aircraft.

It’s not about invulnerability. It’s about risk management, and having the skill and knowledge to perform the duties you were hired to provide.

Accident rates during instruction are comparable to non instruction accident rates, but 80% of the instruction accident occur during solo. FYI.
 
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Clip4 said:
If you become a CFI, you can let the students have mental lapses and let the chain of events continue until the plane runs off the runway and takes out the lights. I chose to intervene before that happens.

It’s not about invulnerability. It’s about risk management, and having the skill and knowledge to perform the duties you were hired to provide.
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Hazardous attitude: invulnerability.
 
Clip4 said:
Hazardous attitude: gross stupidity and addressing topics you know little about.
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You believe you can prevent any possible accident a student could cause. Apparently even mechanically induced accidents. That is gross stupidity and the very definition of invulnerability.
 
At best your instructor may owe you what he charged for instruction on that flight. Unless he was knowingly negligent that’s about it. At worst he or his health insurance company could turn around and sue you for any injuries received during or as a result of the accident. He may be avoiding you because he has a stack of medical bills he’s getting ready to give you. Flying without hull insurance is a choice some make as the cost to replace the airplane is within their financial comfort zone but flying with anyone else in the airplane and not having liability coverage is just not a smart move. Medical bills even to just get evaluated in the ER after an accident can run into the tens of thousands even if they find nothing wrong. If he has an ER visit or significant medical bills from the accident his health insurance company likely asked him how he got the injury and is trying to find out if the claim can be subrigated so they can be reimbursed. He might not be avoiding you for the reason you think.
 
kmacht said:
At best your instructor may owe you what he charged for instruction on that flight. Unless he was knowingly negligent that’s about it. At worst he or his health insurance company could turn around and sue you for any injuries received during or as a result of the accident. He may be avoiding you because he has a stack of medical bills he’s getting ready to give you. Flying without hull insurance is a choice some make as the cost to replace the airplane is within their financial comfort zone but flying with anyone else in the airplane and not having liability coverage is just not a smart move. Medical bills even to just get evaluated in the ER after an accident can run into the tens of thousands even if they find nothing wrong. If he has an ER visit or significant medical bills from the accident his health insurance company likely asked him how he got the injury and is trying to find out if the claim can be subrigated so they can be reimbursed. He might not be avoiding you for the reason you think.
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I definitely see where you’re coming from but thankfully neither of us received so much as a scratch.I broke my headset is all.
If he would want anything it would have to be for emotional damage lol but I honestly think he isn’t the type.He is an ex-military fairly quiet kinda guy and just doesn’t talk about stuff like this.He’s had a few accidents and you couldn’t pry that info outa him.I take it more he feels bad about the situation and also he was probably more for not reporting the I was
 
kmacht said:
At best your instructor may owe you what he charged for instruction on that flight. Unless he was knowingly negligent that’s about it. At worst he or his health insurance company could turn around and sue you for any injuries received during or as a result of the accident. He may be avoiding you because he has a stack of medical bills he’s getting ready to give you. Flying without hull insurance is a choice some make as the cost to replace the airplane is within their financial comfort zone but flying with anyone else in the airplane and not having liability coverage is just not a smart move. Medical bills even to just get evaluated in the ER after an accident can run into the tens of thousands even if they find nothing wrong. If he has an ER visit or significant medical bills from the accident his health insurance company likely asked him how he got the injury and is trying to find out if the claim can be subrigated so they can be reimbursed. He might not be avoiding you for the reason you think.
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Interesting, and very valid, take.
 
....So there I was, sitting in my newly purchased tail wheel plane, looking at the ancient instrument panel, admiring the special skill of ancient airmen. I had plans to meet my insurance man to start insurance later in the week.

Suddenly there was a bright flash of light in the sky and a masked man jumped into the copilot seat, yelling in my ear..''FLY.!!'' I told him I am not endorsed to fly a tail wheel plane. He contorted his face and repeated his order...''FLY.!!''

I calmly asked him ''What is your destination.??'' He stuck his fist in my face and again yelled ''FLY.!!''

So I started the engine and proceeded to taxi toward the runway. I got to the runway did a flawless run up. The guy was beating his hands against the glare shield yelling, '' GO,GO,GO.!!''

So I went, and that is when things started going bad...
 
Zeldman said:
....So there I was, sitting in my newly purchased tail wheel plane, looking at the ancient instrument panel, admiring the special skill of ancient airmen. I had plans to meet my insurance man to start insurance later in the week.

Suddenly there was a bright flash of light in the sky and a masked man jumped into the copilot seat, yelling in my ear..''FLY.!!'' I told him I am not endorsed to fly a tail wheel plane. He contorted his face and repeated his order...''FLY.!!''

I calmly asked him ''What is your destination.??'' He stuck his fist in my face and again yelled ''FLY.!!''

So I started the engine and proceeded to taxi toward the runway. I got to the runway did a flawless run up. The guy was beating his hands against the glare shield yelling, '' GO,GO,GO.!!''

So I went, and that is when things started going bad...
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Is this the DG thread? ;)
 
Clip4 said:
There are plenty of students out there and I don’t take students who have an aircraft accident history.
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I do. I have had several "students" who were training for upcoming 709 rides. One stalled and spun in a J-3 on a commercial flight (photography), another went off the end of a runway into a cornfield, a third one made an off-field landing and flipped the Ercoupe inverted after hitting a barbed wire fence.

The only ones I would decline to fly with would be those in airplane types I had not flown before.
 
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