Cessna 100hour inspection

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SmallPilot

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Matt
Hi,

I own a 1977 152 Aerobat that’s on leaseback with a flight school. It’s been stuck in 100 hour for the past three weeks and the chief pilot is wanting to bill me for the lost revenue of downtime while on maintenance. The mechanic/inspector quoted 22 hours for the 100 hour, which I know has to be way over what it actually takes. I’ve threatened to take it off leaseback because I’m being treated unfairly but the mechanic refuses to give me the logbooks back until I pay for the work he’s done so far. Thinking of litigation. Help?
 
Does your contract with the flight school actually permit them to bill you for loss revenue when the plane is undergoing routine maintenance? If so, what the hell were you thinking. Anyone who presented me with terms like that is not someone I would even negotiate with. That is someone I just walk away from.

Can you provide the list of work that the mechanic completed during those 22 hours? I mean, it's not unheard of for something to be discovered that would push a 100 hour to 22 hours labor. What was that something? You're leaving out a lot of details.
 
Listen, I wasn’t the brightest bulb when I bought my airplane and I’m not a very good businessman but I know when I’m getting taken advantage of. The 22 hours was his so called flat rate charge for a 152. This is the first time I’ve used this guy, but the school that it is on leaseback for requires that I use him. I did not read over the contract like I should have, but yes they charge for the down time of lost revenue for routine maintenance. They say an average day equals 5 hours of flying, so that is what they deduct from my check at the end of the month for the airplane. I need out of this but I think litigation will be my best option.
 
If it's in the contract, you're probably on the hook.

You might need to inform them that you'll be cancelling (with proper notice, etc.,.. check that contract) cut your losses, and either renegotiate, or move on.
As you found out, the current contract sucks.

I'd consult an attorney for full advice. Not sure they can hold the plane. The attorney, and/or some of the folks here probably know for sure.

Good luck.
 
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SmallPilot said:
..It’s been stuck in 100 hour for the past three weeks and the chief pilot is wanting to bill me for the lost revenue of downtime while on maintenance.
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What a D-Bag! I'd remove the plane from the that lease back asap. Leasebacks are a lose these days anyway. The FBO is guaranteed a profit and you are guaranteed the expenses. You only make money if by good luck and fortune, the expense is not so bad to eat all the profits. Leaseback rates are rising much slower than maintenance costs.

If lease backs were a viable business model, flight school would own their own planes. Chief pilots like this turkey are a good reason to walk.
 
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In every buisness deal you have to ask yourself what the other parties motives are,usually what seems a good deal on the surface to a “newbie” isn’t actually in their best interest, if it was such a good deal you wouldn’t be getting it. While yes, there is the vary rare “unicorn” good deal, you won’t find one by looking for one, unicorns only show themselves to whom they choose to.
 
Hmm, they require you to use specific maintenance, but you are on the hook if the maintenance takes a long time.........

I am not clear, is the delay due to the shop or due to you not paying the bill? If it is you not wanting to pay the bill, it is on you. If that charge is a flat rate, then you should have known that before. And any repairs should have been cleared with you BEFORE they did the work.

Also, lesson learned, do not give the log books to the shop. I give them a PDF copy of the logs and they give me a sticker to put in the log books.
 
SmallPilot said:
Listen, I wasn’t the brightest bulb when I bought my airplane and I’m not a very good businessman but I know when I’m getting taken advantage of. The 22 hours was his so called flat rate charge for a 152. This is the first time I’ve used this guy, but the school that it is on leaseback for requires that I use him. I did not read over the contract like I should have, but yes they charge for the down time of lost revenue for routine maintenance. They say an average day equals 5 hours of flying, so that is what they deduct from my check at the end of the month for the airplane. I need out of this but I think litigation will be my best option.
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There is no way for SGOTI (including me) to give any advice how to handle it. That said, I'm not sure what you would expect litigation to accomplish. What you need is a consult with a lawyer who will read the contract you chose to sign without reading, review the situation, and discuss reasonable (and unreasonable) options with you.
 
SmallPilot said:
Hi,

I own a 1977 152 Aerobat that’s on leaseback with a flight school. It’s been stuck in 100 hour for the past three weeks and the chief pilot is wanting to bill me for the lost revenue of downtime while on maintenance. The mechanic/inspector quoted 22 hours for the 100 hour, which I know has to be way over what it actually takes. I’ve threatened to take it off leaseback because I’m being treated unfairly but the mechanic refuses to give me the logbooks back until I pay for the work he’s done so far. Thinking of litigation. Help?
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Which issue are you thinking of litigating. The flight school billing you for lost revenue? Or the mechanic not giving you the logbooks back. I can’t see you winning the mechanic one. If he said he wants you to pay him 22 hours of shop rate because that’s what he quoted, that would be wrong. But you said he just wants payment for work already done. You owe him that.
 
22 hours is “Way over what it actually takes”!

I don’t think so. Most fixed gear light aircraft require this approximate time to

do a decent job of inspection and servicing. Unique to the 152 is the need to

check the Valve Clearance. That alone is good for about an hour. There is a

recurrent AD to measure the seat components for wear as well.

Is the Damper,Strut and Brakes being serviced as well or just wait till there is an issue.

Lubrication of Door Hinges, Window Latches and Brake Pedal Pivots only takes a

little while and may avoid expensive replacement/ down time. This may vary with

Techs and shops.


A Tech and an Apprentice can do the INSPECTION in about a day and a half.

Where does the 3 weeks come from? It seems if you are quoted a price on

anything that is what you should expect to pay. ( Repairs excluded).

is the Tech wanting to be paid for a partial 100 hr ?


There may well be more to this story. Some Mx will require money in advance for

some clients. When that is used up it’s the clients decision to come up with more

money or discontinue the project. This is more appropriate with larger projects or

sketchy customers though.
 
Hopefully you can give 30 day notice and end the contract with the school.

5 hours a day-how did they calculate or is it in your agreement? Are they using your plane 5 hours a day? Paying you for days they don’t reach it? Any provisions for weather?

Etc.
 
Interesting arrangement, the mechanic you are required to use sandbags the 100 hour and the school penalizes you for not having the plane in service. Sounds like collusion to me.
 
Without seeing the contract - impossible to provide further advice. If you cannot escape the contract, I would look for some edge in the contract that allows you to make the airplane very undesirable to their customer or operation. It's available, but nobody wants to rent the damn thing, because you did X. The key is finding an X that stops people from renting but does not violate the contract. Fun random ideas:

- If you can do something that manipulates the price too high to where their customers don't want it because the it costs as much as the Cirrus.
- If you can do something that just plain makes their customers not want to get anywhere near it. Perhaps paint it in a "Trump 2024" livery. Or a Hilary one. Whatever is less desirable in your region.
- How does scheduling work? Anything you can that is allowed in the contract but would make it pretty much unusable to their customers?
- Maybe do something that still makes it technically airworthy, but completely unusable for their instructors, and wasn't something they thought of in the contract. An example idea: Remove the intercom system. Nothing says an intercom is required for flight instruction, and it certainly isn't required for airworthiness. Does the contract say it is required? If not, there ya go!

When there is a will for one party in a contract to no longer make it work, there is a way to do so without violating the contract. You just need to read it all really carefully, get over your anger, and start getting creative.

When I had a flight school, I refused to do leasebacks. I regularly had students ask me if they bought an airplane could they do a leaseback. I told them no. There was no possible way to arrange it to where they wouldn't get screwed and end up hating me.
 
Appears that it's over:

SmallPilot
Ejection Handle Pulled
 
luvflyin said:
Which issue are you thinking of litigating. The flight school billing you for lost revenue? Or the mechanic not giving you the logbooks back. I can’t see you winning the mechanic one. If he said he wants you to pay him 22 hours of shop rate because that’s what he quoted, that would be wrong. But you said he just wants payment for work already done. You owe him that.
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The FAA frowns upon mechanics holding logbooks ransom. I walked into the local IA’s hangar when two badge wearing FSDO employees were raking him over the coals for that. He bobbed and weaved his way out of trouble, but I bet he doesn’t do it again.
 
The OP has been ejected but as with most posts of this nature, the other side of the story has not been told. A red flag for me was a 22 hour inspection taking three weeks. That alone makes me think they found an issue that changed the status of the inspection from “routine” to something else.
 
kyleb said:
The FAA frowns upon mechanics holding logbooks ransom.
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FYI: in some states its more than just a frown and is considered theft. When it comes to aircraft the owner holds more stroke than any mechanic does in these scenarios and short of following a mechanics lien process the mechanic usually ends up on the short end of the stick from both a regulatory standpoint and local law.
 
The logs stay with the owner. The A&P can print and sign a label. If he needs to review the logs, he can be sent PDFs or return the physical books when he’s done reading them.
 
Not sure what is going on with the OP?
One of the first things I learned about airplane ownership was from the previous owner of my airplane. He made me aware to never give the logs to no one. I get stickers from my IA mechanic to put in my logs. I have made copies of my logs to give to service providers but I hold the original logs. I keep them in a fire resistance box in a safe place.

Maybe the lease back arrangement required the AP/IA mechanic to hold the logs? If so I would never do a lease back.

Weird that he is locked out, makes me wonder why?
 
I’ve encouraged owners to have copies of Records in any format.

Sometimes folks drop off the originals in boxes along with receipts from

landing fees ( (1998), cheeseburger wrappers etc.
 
I keep a cloud account loaded with copies (via photos) of the logbooks, equipment lists, weight & balance, airplane Owner's Manual, FAA approved Flight Manual Supplements, installed equipment manuals, supplemental wiring diagrams, electrical load analysis, invoices and warranty cards for expensive things, and more.
 
bnt- Are they available to the Tech at inspection time?
 
SmallPilot said:
the mechanic refuses to give me the logbooks back until I pay for the work he’s done so far
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Another example of why to NEVER give your logbooks to your mechanic. I have a Google Drive link with everything scanned, organized, and searchable. Haven't had any issues.
 
YMMV. I’m trying to do a PB on a PA-22 and “ broker” won’t send a pic

of Engine O/H and Aircraft Fabric 337.

3 hours of driving just to look at that!

Many folks see the big buck asking price and figure if you don’t want it the

next guy will.

It does take some work to get things in order in an format.
 
Mechanic did damage to the plastic on our airplane during annual inspection in our hangar. Only owned up to it when directly questioned, and then found more damage and found plastic parts and various screws in the trashcan that he has denied happening. We have pictures. Did not answer any of our questions about some normal procedural things such as new or annealed washers under fine wire plugs, not knowing how to check front landing gear, blew out fluid onto paint and didn't clean it. up which left streaks. Not lubricating tach cable. etc. Questioning the safety of the entire annual. He's holding our logbooks, which he did not have permission to take from our hangar, for full payment of an incomplete annual. Not sure what we can legally do.
 
cleftpilot said:
He's holding our logbooks, which he did not have permission to take from our hangar, for full payment of an incomplete annual. Not sure what we can legally do.
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For me, initial question is how did the mechanic gain entrance to your hanger.
Other questions.
How long have you owned the aircraft. Are you sole owner or factional / club? What aircraft make/model/year is this? How much is the mechanic asking for the annual? What is the damage that was done and best guess estimate to repair the known damage? What do you mean by "incomplete annual"?

Unless you just want to vent then please ignore my silly questions. I understand the need to vent.
 
cleftpilot said:
Mechanic did damage to the plastic on our airplane during annual inspection in our hangar. Only owned up to it when directly questioned, and then found more damage and found plastic parts and various screws in the trashcan that he has denied happening. We have pictures. Did not answer any of our questions about some normal procedural things such as new or annealed washers under fine wire plugs, not knowing how to check front landing gear, blew out fluid onto paint and didn't clean it. up which left streaks. Not lubricating tach cable. etc. Questioning the safety of the entire annual. He's holding our logbooks, which he did not have permission to take from our hangar, for full payment of an incomplete annual. Not sure what we can legally do.
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Call a lawyer. Pay them. Do what they say. Learn from the lesson. Nobody on this forum is going to solve this for you.
 
jesse said:
Call a lawyer. Pay them. Do what they say. Learn from the lesson. Nobody on this forum is going to solve this for you.
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Didn't ask for anyone on this forum to solve the problem. Asked for some opinions especially about holding log books for ransom.
 
Seems that maybe the cops should be called as taking the logbooks without permission is theft. His civil matter with what you owe him for his work does not allow him to take whatever he wants and hold it until you pay.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
For me, initial question is how did the mechanic gain entrance to your hanger.
Other questions.
How long have you owned the aircraft. Are you sole owner or factional / club? What aircraft make/model/year is this? How much is the mechanic asking for the annual? What is the damage that was done and best guess estimate to repair the known damage? What do you mean by "incomplete annual"?

Unless you just want to vent then please ignore my silly questions. I understand the need to vent.
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Damage is approx 1500 for replacement painted to match and installation. He knew the plastic was original and we had babied the plane all that time and never had any problems He was told to be extra careful. There were many things they we noticed upon checking out annual. Asked him about using new gasket/washer for our fine wire plugs, About lubricating the tachometer (he replied it looked ok)and didn't do. I had to show him how to raise the wheel pants in order to check the tires, that he also said that they look ok and I guess he wasn't going to look at them. Not checking the shimmy damper, and various other things. It's incomplete because he said he would not complete it since we had questioned him...but still wants the entire amount with nothing we can trust about his work on the plane. We will have to have another annual to feel the plane is safe. He did the annual in our hangar, and the logbooks were there for him to look over them etc while he was in our hangar. He did not have permission to take anything with him. He will not return until we have paid him the complete price of $1800 plus tax. He has not offered to pay anything toward the damage he caused to our plane.
 
WHY did you leave your logbooks in your hangar? Lesson learned, they go home into fireproof safe.

About all you can do is talk to him. Mention you may have to contact the FAA about the issues. But you will forget them if he returns the logbooks and doesn't charge for the work, or at least a greatly reduced rate.

Personally, if he does not listen to reason, I would inform him that you were reporting the theft of the logbooks to the police and will be filing a lawsuit (probably small claims so no lawyer needed on your part).
 
If you are getting an attorney don’t waste your time with a non-aviation lawyer.

AOPA can provide listings.

Lubing the Tach/Tach Cable is generally not done during a 100 hr

Not many Tachs have an actual lube port anymore.

I don’t understand your comment regarding fine wire plugs and gaskets.
 
kmacht said:
Seems that maybe the cops should be called as taking the logbooks without permission is theft. His civil matter with what you owe him for his work does not allow him to take whatever he wants and hold it until you pay.
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Police will likely say, "this is a civil matter. We will not get involved."

Does the state have an applicable mechanics lien law? Does it allow, even arguably, for logbook retention?
 
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