It is not a civil matter. They won’t get involved with the disputed bill but certainly will get involved if property is stolen. Again, the mechanic doesn’t have the right to just physically take things because of a disputed bill.
Cessna 100hour inspection
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It is not a civil matter. They won’t get involved with the disputed bill but certainly will get involved if property is stolen. Again, the mechanic doesn’t have the right to just physically take things because of a disputed bill.
Just making a comment based on experience. If you are thinking a LEO is going to get involved in deciding whether a law like this (pretty common) allows a mechanic to retain aircraft logs, I disagree.
Any person engaged in repair, storage, servicing, or furnishing supplies or accessories for aircraft or aircraft engines or providing contracts of indemnity for aircraft shall have a lien on such aircraft or aircraft engines for any reasonable charges therefor, including charges for labor, for the use of tools, machinery, and equipment, and for all parts, accessories, materials, oils, lubricants, storage fees, earned premiums, and other supplies furnished in connection therewith. Such lien shall be superior to all liens except liens for taxes, subject to compliance with subsection (b) of this Code section.
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Doug Reid
Cleared for Takeoff
You are entitled to your property. The mechanic is entitled to take you to court for money you owe him. The mechanic is not entitled to hold your property. The sheriff's department is supposed to assist you getting access and recover your plane and logbooks. You will have to show proof of ownership to law enforcement agency. The FAA does not have any jurisdiction in this transaction.
Pinecone
En-Route
It is theft, which is a criminal matter. They have value, as not having the logbooks reduces the value of the aircraft by some 30% from what I have heard.
Let's check your state...
(a) (1) Any person who, with the consent of the owner, has custody of an aircraft and who, at the request of the owner, provides a service to or materials for the aircraft, has a lien on the aircraft for any charge incurred for any:
(i) Inspection, maintenance, repair, servicing, or rebuilding;
(ii) Storage, parking, handling, or tiedown; or
(iii) Parts, accessories, materials, or supplies.
(ii) Storage, parking, handling, or tiedown; or
(iii) Parts, accessories, materials, or supplies.
You think a LEO is going to make the decision that "it doesn't say lien on documents so unless they keep the whole airplane, it's theft."
OK. I disagree.
Lndwarrior
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All of those items relate to either work performed, or expenses incurred, by the mechanic.
I think any reasonably intelligent individual could understand that the owner's log books in no way fall into either of these categories.
The log books would be the equivalent of taking the owner's aircraft tools from the hangar. Both are owner's property, and both have nothing to do with work performed, or expenses incurred by the mechanic.
So, yes, it is a criminal matter.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm not quite sure though what you mean by
not being "provides a service to or materials for the aircraft,"from the OP said:
Although I never said it wasn't a criminal matter. It might be. It might not. just that my experience is that the average police department or sheriff's office is not going to make that judgment call.
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In general, as mentioned it depends on state/local laws how this works out. Keep in mind the OP voluntarily permitted the mechanic to work on his aircraft and I would assume in return for compensation. How this work scope was agreed to (along with the leaseback agreement) will determine how and where it will play out. Having been in similar scenarios very doubtful your local LEO will get involved at this point in my experience. Personally, I never held logbooks in this manner and rarely would hold the aircraft for non-payment over disagreements. Regardless, there's a lot still missing from the OPs story.
cleftpilot
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The state is North Carolina
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cleftpilot
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What would you like to know..... He has done damage to the plane that is in our hangar. The logbooks were in the hangar for him to look over AD's and all...They were not to be taken out of the hangar. So many things happened in the annual that was witnessed, he should have been stopped earlier. The annual was not completed, but he wants to be paid for the entire annual which has not been signed off since it was not completed. Can't really trust for safety's sake the parts that were done. It will have to be re-inspected before it can be signed off. He owes us for the damage he did to the plane. We found the pieces of the planes interior plastic in the trash . I take that as trying to hide it.. ????
To start, I'd like to know the mechanic's side of the story......
cleftpilot
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To start, I'd like to know the mechanic's side of the story......
Ok....I'm a liar, there wasn't $1500 dollars worth of damage. He doesn't have our logbooks and our annual was done perfectly and completely finished. We are are going to send him any amount he wants and not expect him to pay for the damage he did and of course we don't expect him to return our logbooks. Thanks Final Approach you have been a great help to me. Outta here,....
Daleandee
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Daleandee
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Dale Andee
Haven't you heard? AI is now sentient ...so I guess that means coffee in the morning like the rest of us?
Any person who has expended labor, skill, or materials on an aircraft or has furnished storage for an aircraft at the request of its owner has a perfected lien on the aircraft beginning on the date the expenditure of labor, skill, or materials or the storage commenced, for the contract price for the expenditure of labor, skill, or materials or for the storage, or, in the absence of a contract price, for the reasonable worth of the expenditure of labor, skill, or materials, or of the storage. The lien under this section survives even if the possession of the aircraft is surrendered by the lienor.
It's not quite as simple as it sounds. Chapter 44A, Article 5 has some additional requirements for the lien claimant.
Mongoose Aviator
Line Up and Wait
Which imho fairly effectively demonstrates your point that Police are not going to get involved.
Nothing wrong with both sides coughing up the cash for lawyers and duking it out in court.
On the other hand, one might think the legal bills could escalate past the OP reported $1800 bill before anybody ever sets a single foot in court.
But sometimes it is not about the money. Regardless of how much something might end up costing and for how long the property may be legally tied up and unavailable - sometimes you have to take a stand and prove your point. No matter what the cost ends up being. Of course if after all of that and you end up loosing in court ... well. I guess you can still say it was a good fight and worth it. Depending on the State laws, potentially the loser also has to pay the reasonable legal fees of the other side. But even than at least you took a stand and fought the good fight.
Doug Reid
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Read my post again...post #43. I have direct knowledge about this situation. I live in NC and we went thru a similar situation a few years ago. The CLT FSDO was involved..they said to contact the sheriffs department and get the logbooks back. Get your plane out of there also. They have no right to your plane or logbooks, but they can take you to court for money you owe. Get your stuff now while you can..I know of one instance where the mechanic dismantled the plane and the parts were never located.
Yet another reason to have the owner actually getting dirty during the inspection.
He states the interior plastic was marginal at best ( potato chippy?) and often they
must be removed to allow for inspection. I have had them crumble in the process.
Expecting the Tech to provide new parts that are cut, fit and painted to replace
the old junk gratis is ridiculous. Maybe sue Mother Nature for the IR rays?
Having someone questioning gaskets and tach lubrication while I was on task would
be minimized if they themselves had to do it. My guess is they watched too many
YouTube vids. Informing the person that you will are willing to discuss or
demonstrate any WHILE STILL PUNCHED IN ON THE JOB can be rather effective.
I would question any relationship where the owner ( non- certificated) claims to
know more about the Mx than the Tech. Perhaps the A & P does not meet the
requirements of Part 65 regarding prior experience and the owner just wants a
signature? My belief is that the newer Techs should have access to a more
experienced person for guidance cases needed. Not everyone knows everything
although there are some folks who claim that distinction !
He states the interior plastic was marginal at best ( potato chippy?) and often they
must be removed to allow for inspection. I have had them crumble in the process.
Expecting the Tech to provide new parts that are cut, fit and painted to replace
the old junk gratis is ridiculous. Maybe sue Mother Nature for the IR rays?
Having someone questioning gaskets and tach lubrication while I was on task would
be minimized if they themselves had to do it. My guess is they watched too many
YouTube vids. Informing the person that you will are willing to discuss or
demonstrate any WHILE STILL PUNCHED IN ON THE JOB can be rather effective.
I would question any relationship where the owner ( non- certificated) claims to
know more about the Mx than the Tech. Perhaps the A & P does not meet the
requirements of Part 65 regarding prior experience and the owner just wants a
signature? My belief is that the newer Techs should have access to a more
experienced person for guidance cases needed. Not everyone knows everything
although there are some folks who claim that distinction !
cleftpilot
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Luckily he can't get back into our hangar to the plane, but we want our logbooks back....we do have them on a jump drive, but want the originals. If he sues us for the money of an unfinished, not signed off annual....we will sue him for the damage to the airplane. Much easier and cheaper on both of us to amicably get this worked out, but he refuses.
Pay an attorney to write him a letter, as a warning shot. The A&P doesn’t want to go to court any more than you do and he can probably afford it less than you can. If he sees you’re serious about going that route he’ll likely de-escalate and negotiate.
Sounds like quite the mess and a little bit different than a shop enforcing a legitimate statutory lien in the proper way.
And yeah, I've been involved with the NC lien law too, although I don't have the same liberty as others to give advice based on insufficient information.
Depends on the state laws. Some states have possessory mechanics’s liens which give them the right to hold the aircraft and other items. Some don't.
Doug Reid
Cleared for Takeoff
Have you or any of your friends been held hostage by an aircraft maintenance shop and logbooks refused to be given to the owner ? I have plenty of first hand knowledge on this subject. Multiple planes, some dismantled, logbooks withheld from multiple owners even though no money owed after maintenance...big mess.
The advice I gave came directly from CLT FSDO a few years ago. I think they did help get logbooks returned after meeting with shop owner. I have no skin in this game...do as you please.
Call your local FSDO and see what they advise.
Seems you and I are talking about apples and oranges. You appear to be convinced all retention fits into your category. No such thing as a legitimate lien. So, you believe that must be what applies to our lost OP's situation.
OTOH I don't know whether it does or not.
I have definitely advised clients to go to the FSDO on maintenance issues. I've also dealt with FSDOs to help shops respond to FSDO investigations. (Definitely not fun when some FSDO cowboy goes after a legit operator.) I'm not sure why I would ask a FSDO to advise me on a legal issue.
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pfarber
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THIS
Contracts have to be a fair exchange. It might be an out that you can argue that the requirements to use their MX and the billing issue is something they should have considered and that the time in inspection is customary and not cause for a loss