Center Always Looking For Us After Landing

Kritchlow said:
Sure, you have a clearance, but it's not in effect until entering controlled airspace. Similar to a release time.
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You appear to be saying you have an IFR clearance in hand before entering controlled airspace. Is that correct?
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm sure there must be an answer, possibly just an informal rule of thumb... People must put in some sort of code.
Although, are transponders even required in G ?
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Not according to 91.215, unless you're inside a Mode C veil, but the G there would be only below 700, and we're not talking about that.

So the question remains, what do you squawk if you're IFR without a clearance in the G, and if there's no standard code, how does ATC tell whether you're IFR or VFR if you're not talking to them?
 
azure said:
Not according to 91.215, unless you're inside a Mode C veil, but the G there would be only below 700, and we're not talking about that.

So the question remains, what do you squawk if you're IFR without a clearance in the G, and if there's no standard code, how does ATC tell whether you're IFR or VFR if you're not talking to them?
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I agree...

I'm still wondering though what the guys in Alaska out in their transponders. Not that it matters, seeing as though I will likely never be in that situation. Just curious really.
 
Kritchlow said:
I agree...

I'm still wondering though what the guys in Alaska out in their transponders. Not that it matters, seeing as though I will likely never be in that situation. Just curious really.
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It's not a totally academic question for me, since I'm flying to Michigan tomorrow. Okay, I'll be down in the bottom of the state mostly, but I'm toying with the idea of heading up to 6Y9 for the 4th. With the kind of weather the eastern half of the country has been seeing, there could possibly be hard IFR involved.

My guess is still that even though you've been given a clearance, in those G to 14,000 areas it's really just advisories, as you said before. Otherwise it's not hard to imagine a scenario where a controller could be hung out to dry because he failed to separate an IFR from another IFR he *thought* was a VFR... big sky theory notwithstanding.
 
6Y9 is under a victor airway, so if you come in from the east, you'll be in class E
 
EdFred said:
You quoted my even when breaking out at mins post. Where I fly mins are always outside controlled airspace. Read MY post again. :D ;)
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I responded to your post that I correctly read. I advised you to be careful doing what you stated in controlled airspace.

WTF I hope you're just messing with me.
 
azure said:
Not according to 91.215, unless you're inside a Mode C veil, but the G there would be only below 700, and we're not talking about that.

So the question remains, what do you squawk if you're IFR without a clearance in the G, and if there's no standard code, how does ATC tell whether you're IFR or VFR if you're not talking to them?
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I suspect that the reason there's Class G at all is because there is no radar coverage so what you squawk is irrelevant to ATC because they won't see it. I'd squawk 1200 just for those aircraft that might have TCAS. The airports with Class E surface areas have IFR aircraft procedurally separated when there's no radar coverage.
 
Witmo said:
I suspect that the reason there's Class G at all is because there is no radar coverage so what you squawk is irrelevant to ATC because they won't see it. I'd squawk 1200 just for those aircraft that might have TCAS. The airports with Class E surface areas have IFR aircraft procedurally separated when there's no radar coverage.
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Generally, where the tools exist to provide ATC services, controlled airspace is established and ATC services are provided. Where radar coverage didn't exist a transponder served no useful function. Then came TCAS. I don't think you'll see a transponder code for IFR operations in Class G airspace because the FAA doesn't want to encourage that.
 
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Witmo said:
I suspect that the reason there's Class G at all is because there is no radar coverage so what you squawk is irrelevant to ATC because they won't see it. I'd squawk 1200 just for those aircraft that might have TCAS. The airports with Class E surface areas have IFR aircraft procedurally separated when there's no radar coverage.
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That's what I thought too, but if you read the whole thread, Ed says that ZMP can see you in the G to 14.5 areas in the UP, and has actually cleared him through those areas. So the question is, how can they do that where someone could be legally operating IFR without a clearance?
 
azure said:
That's what I thought too, but if you read the whole thread, Ed says that ZMP can see you in the G to 14.5 areas in the UP, and has actually cleared him through those areas. So the question is, how can they do that where someone could be legally operating IFR without a clearance?
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There's no getting clearance through Class G airspace which would imply that ATC has control over aircraft inside uncontrolled airspace. It's either controlled airspace where ATC can exercise control or uncontrolled where ATC can't.
 
azure said:
That's what I thought too, but if you read the whole thread, Ed says that ZMP can see you in the G to 14.5 areas in the UP, and has actually cleared him through those areas. So the question is, how can they do that where someone could be legally operating IFR without a clearance?
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Your route goes through the class G, your IFR clearance is valid "while in controlled airspace".
 
Witmo said:
There's no getting clearance through Class G airspace which would imply that ATC has control over aircraft inside uncontrolled airspace. It's either controlled airspace where ATC can exercise control or uncontrolled where ATC can't.
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Except there is. I've gotten it both to and from 6Y9. ATC has never 'suspended' my clearance while I'm in the G.
 
I just don't believe it's possible, by definition, to get a clearance through G airspace. I just don't buy it. I think there is some confusion somewhere. ATC cannot issue a clearance through airspace that they do not control. Period.
 
EdFred said:
Except there is. I've gotten it both to and from 6Y9. ATC has never 'suspended' my clearance while I'm in the G.
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The words from atc for a clearance over the phone in my part of the country would typically be something like: "N123AB you are cleared as filed, climb maintain 4,000, squawk 1234, upon entering controlled airspace heading 310 contact center on 123.0. Clearance void 1025 zulu time now 1010 zulu"

I get about one of those a month on the ground over the phone. I can't recall exactly what my clearance out of 6Y9 was when I called ATC and departed when the weather was about a 600 overcast but it was something like that.

Basically they could give a **** less about much of anything provided you're entering their controlled airspace on the heading they want, squawking what they want, and you call them up on the radio per the clearance.
 
jesse said:
The words from atc for a clearance over the phone in my part of the country would typically be something like: "N123AB you are cleared as filed, climb maintain 4,000, squawk 1234, upon entering controlled airspace heading 310 contact center on 123.0. Clearance void 1025 zulu time now 1010 zulu"

I get about one of those a month on the ground over the phone. I can't recall exactly what my clearance out of 6Y9 was when I called ATC and departed when the weather was about a 600 overcast but it was something like that.

Basically they could give a **** less about much of anything provided you're entering their controlled airspace on the heading they want, squawking what they want, and you call them up on the radio per the clearance.
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Exactly... Flown out of many uncontrolled fields with a similar clearance.
One caveat.. When I'm entering controlled airspace I'm often still in the turn to assigned heading. I guess I'm breaking the rules...
 
Kritchlow said:
i always wait until on the ground to cancel. If the guy behind me or the guy waiting to take off are so worried about it, let them cancel or depart VFR.
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Yeah, if I'm waiting, I just key up, with your N#, and announce, "canceling IFR!"

:-)

Paul
 
I've gotten it going to 6Y9 though, coming in from the south. Look at that charts. They never cut me loose when entering the G space that starts at the Michigan border. They kept talking to me until *I* cancelled. No radar service terminated, no notice I was leaving controlled airspace. Nothing.

Maybe since they have radar coverage in that area, they just ignore that it's Class G. And if they are, guess what, I'm getting clearances into it both arriving and departing.
 
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EdFred said:
I've gotten it going to 6Y9 though, coming in from the south. Look at that charts. They never cut me loose when entering the G space that starts at the Michigan border. They kept talking to me until *I* cancelled. No radar service terminated, no notice I was leaving controlled airspace. Nothing.

Maybe since they have radar coverage in that area, they just ignore that it's Class G. And if they are, guess what, I'm getting clearances into it both arriving and departing.
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Or maybe you're not really getting IFR separation and it's just advisories while you're in the G. When you land IFR at a field with G below 700, they don't explicitly say that your clearance is void below the E either.
 
When I go up over the 4th, I will file YULNU RABEE 6Y9 and see what happens when I get past Y73.
 
azure said:
That's what I thought too, but if you read the whole thread, Ed says that ZMP can see you in the G to 14.5 areas in the UP, and has actually cleared him through those areas. So the question is, how can they do that where someone could be legally operating IFR without a clearance?
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ATC won't issue an IFR clearance for a flight that will operate only in Class G airspace. Clearances are issued where part of the flight is in Class G airspace. ATC does not provide separation for the portion of the flight in Class G airspace.
 
Kritchlow said:
I just don't believe it's possible, by definition, to get a clearance through G airspace. I just don't buy it. I think there is some confusion somewhere. ATC cannot issue a clearance through airspace that they do not control. Period.
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It is possible, it is done regularly, the confusion is in your mind.
 
roncachamp said:
ATC won't issue an IFR clearance for a flight that will operate only in Class G airspace. Clearances are issued where part of the flight is in Class G airspace. ATC does not provide separation for the portion of the flight in Class G airspace.
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Right, and that's the only possibility that makes sense here. Are they required to notify the pilot that separation services are not being provided in the Class G? (I assume not, based on Ed's experience, though that could be an ATC error.)
 
azure said:
Right, and that's the only possibility that makes sense here. Are they required to notify the pilot that separation services are not being provided in the Class G? (I assume not, based on Ed's experience, though that could be an ATC error.)
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No such notification is required. The ATC order permits routes through Class G airspace only when requested by the pilot. Filing a route that goes through Class G airspace is considered such a request, controller initiation of a route through Class G airspace is a no-no. Pilots are expected to know that ATC has no responsibility or authority in Class G airspace.
 
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roncachamp said:
No such notification is required. The ATC order permits routes through Class G airspace only when requested by the pilot. Filing a route that goes through Class G airspace is considered such a reequest, controller initiation of a route through Class G airspace is a no-no. Pilots are expected to know that ATC has no responsibility or authority in Class G airspace.
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So I suspect that while ATC may issue a clearance through Class G airspace to get to controlled airspace, ATC is providing zilch, nada, no services, separation or otherwise, until the aircraft enters controlled airspace. I further suspect that a significant number of pilots mistakenly believe that upon acceptance of said clearance, should they encounter instrument conditions, ATC is separating them from IFR traffic which is not the case. It would probably be safer for ATC to remind pilots no services are provided while in Class G but we'll have to wait until someone dies before ATC is forced to add a caveat to clearances through Class G.
 
Witmo said:
……. It would probably be safer for ATC to remind pilots no services are provided while in Class G but we'll have to wait until someone dies before ATC is forced to add a caveat to clearances through Class G.
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Instrument rated pilots are expected to know that.
 
Seems to be some confusion here? We used to get IFR clearances all the time direct between Glasgow, MT & Billings, MT. 166 nm. Clearance usually sounded something like "cleared to the Billings airport as filed climb to and maintain eight thousand while in controlled airspace squwak 4321 report reaching eight thousand report crossing Glasgow". The class E extended about 15 miles south of Glasgow, then the route went through about 90 miles of class G below 14,500' , thence 60 miles or so of class E turning to class C. Your IFR clearance was valid for those portions of the route in controlled airspace, you could assume that ATC would provide separation between participating aircraft in the class G, you could also assume that not all aircraft were required to participate. With (I assume the coming of ADS-B) That large chunk of G airspace has recently turned into class E down to 1200 agl as has most of the class G in the lower 48.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Seems to be some confusion here? We used to get IFR clearances all the time direct between Glasgow, MT & Billings, MT. 166 nm. Clearance usually sounded something like "cleared to the Billings airport as filed climb to and maintain eight thousand while in controlled airspace squwak 4321 report reaching eight thousand report crossing Glasgow". The class E extended about 15 miles south of Glasgow, then the route went through about 90 miles of class G below 14,500' , thence 60 miles or so of class E turning to class C. Your IFR clearance was valid for those portions of the route in controlled airspace, you could assume that ATC would provide separation between participating aircraft in the class G, you could also assume that not all aircraft were required to participate. With (I assume the coming of ADS-B) That large chunk of G airspace has recently turned into class E down to 1200 agl as has most of the class G in the lower 48.
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Not a valid assumption.
 
Steven, if you had an IFR aircraft inbound to a class G (transition area) airport conducting an IAP, would you release an IFR departure once that aircraft was observed below 700 AGL? Also, if you were doing a IFR GCA to that same airport, once the aircraft entered Class G would you terminate radar service?
 
Velocity173 said:
Steven, if you had an IFR aircraft inbound to a class G (transition area) airport conducting an IAP, would you release an IFR departure once that aircraft was observed below 700 AGL?
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No.

Also, if you were doing a IFR GCA to that same airport, once the aircraft entered Class G would you terminate radar service?
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Assuming there was such an approach, no. Do you know of one?
 
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