Cell phone use in the air

My phone rings at altitude in the plane. I get the notifications on my Apple Watch all the time. Calls, texts, emails. I don’t answer or respond though, too busy.


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You are the husband, no?
She must ask for permission to use the phone, or anything else.
End of story.







:biggrin:
 
I've used mine with no problem, usually at and below 3K AGL. Not that I cared or bothered to look, but I've heard as many or more answers about it being "legal" (or not) as I've seen posted here. It seemed practically unenforceable, and if it did start causing a problem the Fds would likely start harping on it; until then, if it's convenient (which it usually isn't, really), I'll use it on rare occasion.
 
Lachlan said:
Ok. I don’t believe it was actually updated, though, so it is still unlawful, right? I just want to see a real source that says it is lawful to make cellular phone calls from a personal cell phone while airborne. There’s plenty of stuff from the FCC saying it isn’t. Just because you say it should be, or it’s outdated, or needs to be revisited, does not mean it is lawful. Shoot, in some states it’s probably unlawful to leave your llama untied outside the feed store unless you’re transgendered, but just because you disagree with said law does not mean it’s now legal to park your camelid untethered. All I’m asking for is clear proof from the FCC that it is LEGAL and NOT prohibited to make cellular phone calls from the air. I’m not saying it it is or is not legal; I’m asking for proof that it is legal.
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I want to see a law where it says I’m allowed to breathe.

You won’t find it because the only law the FCC ever wrote about it was the one already posted about 800 MHz frequencies in the AMPS days.

Those, are still illegal to use. If you can find anyone at the carrier or the FCC who cares.

Let us know when you find a phone that will tell you when it’s using the re-farmed spectrum on 800 MHz out of its many choices available to it.

There actually WAS a special cell data card made for CAP use at one time that had 800 MHz disabled so it was legal to use to send data down for a government project. You might be able to find one of those.

Or, like I said, pick a carrier that never had A or B band service and still doesn’t, so their phones never have and never will use the frequencies mentioned.
 
Lachlan said:
Ok. I don’t believe it was actually updated, though, so it is still unlawful, right? I just want to see a real source that says it is lawful to make cellular phone calls from a personal cell phone while airborne. There’s plenty of stuff from the FCC saying it isn’t. Just because you say it should be, or it’s outdated, or needs to be revisited, does not mean it is lawful. Shoot, in some states it’s probably unlawful to leave your llama untied outside the feed store unless you’re transgendered, but just because you disagree with said law does not mean it’s now legal to park your camelid untethered. All I’m asking for is clear proof from the FCC that it is LEGAL and NOT prohibited to make cellular phone calls from the air. I’m not saying it it is or is not legal; I’m asking for proof that it is legal.
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Like Denver says.

There is not “plenty of stuff from the FCC” saying it isn’t legal. There is a reference, created in the days of analog phones, that identified the frequencies that were banned for use in the air by a certain classification of phone.

I gave you a reference from the FCC that admitted their reg was outdated and didn’t cover any of the new technology (and listed them explicitly) — and that the FCC wanted to update the reg to clarify it because it was irrelevant. That request was withdrawn. So much for our government at work. That crappy reg is now officially being ignored. Expecially so on small GA flights.

BTW, any time a passenger’s cell in on, whether it is being used for a voice call or not, it is transmitting and receiving on a steady basis. The FAA says about 2.5 million passengers fly per day. You want to take a guess at how many phones are pinging away, every day, year after year, without a hint of FCC enforcement?

Oh, and if you don’t want to use a cell phone in the air, more power to you. It’s just good to let the rest of the peanut gallery know what the regs actually say, vs. what people think they say. And that includes the definition section stating what “cell phone” technology is affected by their reg.
 
By the way, there are two types: those that believes something is illegal unless a law exists stating it isn’t, and those that believe we all start from the other direction.
 
Lachlan said:
All I’m asking for is clear proof from the FCC that it is LEGAL and NOT prohibited to make cellular phone calls from the air. I’m not saying it it is or is not legal; I’m asking for proof that it is legal.
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If it is not specifically illegal, then it is legal. The government doesn't pass laws about what is legal, generally speaking.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
If it is not specifically illegal, then it is legal. The government doesn't pass laws about what is legal, generally speaking.
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So show me where the FCC relented AFTER they made it unlawful to make cellular calls while airborne. So, you're saying it's legal? I can't find an FCC rig that allows it, only PROPOSED rule making that got thrown out back in April. Still unlawful to make airborne calls unless someone can find proof of the regulation being overturned. If I'm just not seeing it then call me a goofball and point it out to me again, because nothing says it is allowed. Personal electronic devices, use them at will. Making phone calls? Still regulated against.
 
Lachlan said:
So show me where the FCC relented AFTER they made it unlawful to make cellular calls while airborne. So, you're saying it's legal? I can't find an FCC rig that allows it, only PROPOSED rule making that got thrown out back in April. Still unlawful to make airborne calls unless someone can find proof of the regulation being overturned. If I'm just not seeing it then call me a goofball and point it out to me again, because nothing says it is allowed. Personal electronic devices, use them at will. Making phone calls? Still regulated against.
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You are either ignoring or not understanding him, but Denver gave you a very clear path to make perfectly legal calls in the air in a manner that does not conflict with a very specific and limited reg, if you so desire.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
You are either ignoring or not understanding him, but Denver gave you a very clear path to make perfectly legal calls in the air in a manner that does not conflict with a very specific and limited reg, if you so desire.
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Just not understanding him, I guess. I appreciate your subtle insults, though. :). Ok, so it's legal to make cell phone calls while airborne. Thank you.
 
Lachlan said:
Ok, so it's legal to make cell phone calls while airborne. Thank you.
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Yes. Appears to me legal outside the old AMPS bands, which the prior FCC regulations applied to. But IANAL and I don't think denverpilot is either, so if you really want to have something to rely on in an enforcement action, hire one and have them provide you with an opinion letter.
 
To
swingwing said:
What is the legality of phone use while flying? I don't do it, but find it is harder and harder to keep passengers..... mainly my wife :mad: (our kids don't have phone yet)... from texting and answering call while in the air.

Based on a quick search it appears to be illegal but I'm not seeing any enforcement actions. On another GA fourm pilots say they do it routinely.
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Excuse me if this comes across as rude but which part bothers you. Trying to avoid a probable "illegal" activity that could never be caught or the fact that she is on the phone during a flight? It has been proven that it has little to no affect on comm and nav equipment so IMO you throw that out the window. Personal opinion is that the fact that she is on it which frustrates you thus distracting you is a bigger problem than the act itself.

Again sorry if that comes across as rude.

I personally never put my phone on airplane mode unless it is a several hour flight. Just last Sunday I texted my wife and my mom (flying with my dad who was PIC) updating them about our flight and ETA while flying. It is also never farther away than in my pocket. This I am still working on my dad with as he puts his in his flight bag in the baggage compartment. It does no good there after you run away from the plane after an emergency landing.
 
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A few weeks back at a certain glider operation, a glider pilot took off with the intent of only taking a short flight. The pilot found great lift & took advantage of it. The ground crew was quite concerned after he was gone for over an hour. The ground crew started trying to contact the glider via radio but to no avail. The glider pilot could hear the calls but his radio calls to base were not received. A quick call on the gliders pilot's cell phone calmed everyone down.

"I'm at 9,500 feet & climbing. I'll let you know when I'm inbound."

It was kind of an emergency...right?
 
Cykoguy said:
...Personal opinion is that the fact that she is on it which frustrates you thus distracting you is a bigger problem than the act itself.

Again sorry if that comes across as rude....
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PMFJI, but trying to TELL someone what their motives are does seem rude. It's much better to ASK them if that's what their motive is, IMO.
 
Lachlan said:
Just not understanding him, I guess. I appreciate your subtle insults, though. :). Ok, so it's legal to make cell phone calls while airborne. Thank you.
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Unless you’re on the low bands. :) And you don’t know, since your phone won’t tell you.*

*Some phones do have a tech/engineering mode that will show in real-time what band and mode the cellular chipset is currently using, but nobody stares at that but us geeks, trying to figure out problems.

If it makes you feel better, the cellular carriers can quite easily tell your phone to stop transmitting these days, if it’s causing a network problem. The network also knows how fast you’re moving and where you’re generally located with A-GPS or Direct GPS reporting or even just boring old “how fast is it switching cell sites” data, so if you’re doing 400 knots over the ground, it’s pretty obvious where you’re sitting... in an airliner over the thirty cell sites that can hear your phone.

If it was a real problem, they’d hand over a list of offending phones to the FCC and the field offices would be completely overwhelmed anywhere there’s a large airport, just handing out fines to grandmas who left the phone on in their purse when they flew to go see Little Johnny for his birthday. Isn’t going to happen.

The rule against aircraft use in the AMPS days from FCC was created to protect the network that didn’t know how to protect itself. FCC never cared about the potential problems with aircraft systems. They cared about height above ground and transmitter coverage. With AMPS long dead now, and networks that can tell the phone to STFU, FCC really doesn’t care anymore. They never wanted to be the strong arm for the cellular carriers anyway.

I don’t think I ever saw a single enforcement action for having an AMPS phone turned on in flight. If anyone else did, lemme know. I’d be curious to read the demand letter for the fine.

FAA cares, but for different reasons, thus their focus on PEDs as a whole.
 
Palmpilot said:
PMFJI, but trying to TELL someone what their motives are does seem rude. It's much better to ASK them if that's what their motive is, IMO.
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True. One thing I have never been accused of is being a linguist. I just put it out there.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Yes. Appears to me legal outside the old AMPS bands, which the prior FCC regulations applied to. But IANAL and I don't think denverpilot is either, so if you really want to have something to rely on in an enforcement action, hire one and have them provide you with an opinion letter.
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I can't think of any reason to pay for an opinion letter from a lawyer when the FCC has already put it in writing that the existing prohibition doesn't apply to use outside of the 800 MHz cellular and 800 MHz SMR bands. I would be very surprised if the cited document didn't include input from the FCC's lawyers.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/cell-phone-use-in-the-air.106393/#post-2383069
 
Cykoguy said:
True. One thing I have never been accused of is being a linguist. I just put it out there.
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I read it the same way you did
 
Cykoguy said:
To


Excuse me if this comes across as rude but which part bothers you. Trying to avoid a probable "illegal" activity that could never be caught or the fact that she is on the phone during a flight? It has been proven that it has little to no affect on comm and nav equipment so IMO you throw that out the window. Personal opinion is that the fact that she is on it which frustrates you thus distracting you is a bigger problem than the act itself.

Again sorry if that comes across as rude.
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No distraction or frustration. My concern is that I'll be wasting time and money to clean up the mess if the FCC enforces their rule.

To be rude :D you are naive in believing it could never be caught.....so your phone with a unique number hits multiple cell towers that is only possible while in the air and it can't be traced. Please explain.
 
Lachlan said:
Hey, you got the joke. It's been so long since the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor that I didn't think anyone remembered history.
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The Germans bombing Pearl Harbor was a problem. The British surrendering the wine cellar was a disaster.
 
swingwing said:
No distraction or frustration. My concern is that I'll be wasting time and money to clean up the mess if the FCC enforces their rule.

To be rude :D you are naive in believing it could never be caught.....so your phone with a unique number hits multiple cell towers that is only possible while in the air and it can't be traced. Please explain.
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Really?

Everything that you could possibly be violated over by some entity on any given day and this is what worries you?

Just think what would happen if after your phone carrier ratted your wife out to the FCC, they also provided the authorities with the gps record, time, and location of every time you inadvertently or purposefully exceeded the speed limit in your car as well?

You do know all that information is technically available too?
 
swingwing said:
No distraction or frustration. My concern is that I'll be wasting time and money to clean up the mess if the FCC enforces their rule.

To be rude :D you are naive in believing it could never be caught.....so your phone with a unique number hits multiple cell towers that is only possible while in the air and it can't be traced. Please explain.
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Tens of thousands of people a day doing it on airliners. I’m sure they won’t be calling.

If you find that you’re garnering enough attention to have a cell phone spectrum charge thrown at you, I would suspect you have a long list of other charges, and they’re just throwing it at you to add to the pile. Not that any local DA would bother to ask FCC to do it.

Most FCC field offices have a handful of field personnel. Less than one hand worth, unless they had a huge hiring event since the last time I talked to one.

There’s no network left that is threatened by an airborne transmitter. It’s as useful a law as the law that says you can’t loan your vacuum cleaner to a neighbor in the City and County of Denver.
 
denverpilot said:
It’s as useful a law as the law that says you can’t loan your vacuum cleaner to a neighbor in the City and County of Denver.
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No kidding — that is illegal?

What was the idea behind it? Maybe something to do with inadvertent exchanges of bodily fluids?
 
NoHeat said:
No kidding — that is illegal?

What was the idea behind it? Maybe something to do with inadvertent exchanges of bodily fluids?
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Whisky Tango... ? If that's how *you* use a vacuum cleaner then it should definitely be illegal.
 
NoHeat said:
No kidding — that is illegal?

What was the idea behind it? Maybe something to do with inadvertent exchanges of bodily fluids?
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All sorts of goofy old laws on the books, everywhere.

I haven’t figured out if Denver was run by a corrupt politician with a door to door vacuum salesman brother, or if they were concerned about spreading vermin between houses via the vacuum cleaners... but it’s still on the books.

I suspect neither FCC nor FAA wants to remove the AMPS protection law from the books for having to deal with all the idiot reporters who will immediately announce the next day, “Cell phones now legal on airplanes!” And a million flight attendants groaning in unison as they have to explain there’s still FAA rules about PEDs in their airline operations specifications.

It’ll just stay on the books forever as a historical item from a time when cell networks and their control systems really were utterly brain dead. Not quite as brain dead as the previous automotive phone call technology, the UHF duplex radio system where an operator had to dial for you, but close.

Oh I shouldn’t be so mean. AMPS was pretty amazing tech for its day, but it didn’t take long to be replaced by better ideas. Including ones where the network could tell the phone to shut up, amongst other nifty features.

Carrier and band consolidation has real-world normal people seeing over 300 Mb/s to a mobile device these days in some areas with no congestion.

(Theoretical is faster, but most high end screen shots top out around 300 for all practical considerations. Out here in the boonies, they can’t get the fiber to the sites, and backhaul a lot of sites over microwave, so no chance in hell we’ll ever see 300s. We’re pretty lucky to see 10. During a congested night the other night I tested and got 1. That rural broadband tax everyone is paying every month on millions of phones, sure awesome, isn’t it? LOL.)

FCC doesn’t care at all about old AMPS laws at this point. It’s water way too far under the bridge. Like comparing the Old West Stagecoach to Denver International Airport.
 
Here in West Texas I often have cell coverage where ATC can't. I don't talk airborne, but I also don't bother putting it in airplane mode.

Few months ago I had a grounding short with the PTT. Called tower before takeoff from my field (pilot controlled) to fly to the local Class C for the avionics shop. They *ASKED* that I have the phone cued up to call tower and gave me a direct number. Things were fine until touchdown, used the number for ground instructions (and no you can't see light gun signals worth a hoot at my field with the tinting on the cab windows mid day).
 
In my part of the world, I can usually get useable signal up to around 5000'-6000' MSL. The thought has never crossed my mind to put a phone on airplane mode in my personal plane, honestly. It's too loud in the plane to talk on the phone, so we don't, but the wife sometimes does some texting or gets on facebook, etc. to pass the time. I don't care at all that she does that. On occasion, I will shoot a text out myself to give an ETA or something like that. I'm kind of surprised anyone even cares this much.

Dear Feds, I sent a text to 6PC on 10/15/17 at 2:53pm with my Samsung Galaxy S5 Active from my airplane N3323Y at 6500' MSL over the Oklahoma/Arkansas border. Does anybody give a crap? I didn't think so. Peace out.
 
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swingwing said:
No distraction or frustration. My concern is that I'll be wasting time and money to clean up the mess if the FCC enforces their rule.

To be rude :D you are naive in believing it could never be caught.....so your phone with a unique number hits multiple cell towers that is only possible while in the air and it can't be traced. Please explain.
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If they were going to start enforcing this they'd have thousands (no I can't quantify) of pilots to swing the ax at. I'm personally not concerned with it. If you are then don't use the phone.

I hate when I accidentally butt dial someone while I'm flying.
 
swingwing said:
No distraction or frustration. My concern is that I'll be wasting time and money to clean up the mess if the FCC enforces their rule.

To be rude :D you are naive in believing it could never be caught.....so your phone with a unique number hits multiple cell towers that is only possible while in the air and it can't be traced. Please explain.
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Okay I will change it to it would take so much damn time and money as a taxpayer I sure as hell hope they would never investigate that. I am not smart enough but is that sort of thing even logged? That would be one huge database that I would assume would be owned by the provider much like your internet usage is owned by the ISP and requires a warrant to be accessed by authorities.

Also other than spending some time and money with a lawyer and coming up with a plea agreement I doubt you would be out all that much.
 
Thanks @denverpilot for that great explanation about the cell phone bands and why it was problematic. Interestingly enough around here in SoCal I lose cell coverage once I am over about 2,000 AGL, the higher I go the worse it gets.. never understood this as I was always told these signals are "line of site" but your explanation about it not overwhelming multiple sites makes perfect sense. Someone also once told me that the signal is "angled" to be near the ground level (not sure if that's true or not as I'm not really sure how you control how an unobstructed wave propagates, but that's a different topic)

FWIW I do put my phone on airplane mode when I fly.. since I am not getting a signal I might as well save battery. For whatever reason my phone battery drains much faster when it is "hunting" for a signal
 
Tantalum said:
Someone also once told me that the signal is "angled" to be near the ground level (not sure if that's true or not as I'm not really sure how you control how an unobstructed wave propagates, but that's a different topic)
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Antenna gain and usually panel style antennas.

Met up with a friend who got up close and personal with AT&T’s latest panels on a tower last week. Transmitters are no longer (for new installations for the most part) at ground level, they’re up the tower as close as they can get them to the antennas.

From the transmitter box to each sector panel can be up to eight coax cables (usually stuff just below being full blown hardline with copper jacketed pipe essentially, this stuff is slightly more flexible) for the least possible loss and MIMO inside the antenna designs now.

Only cable that runs up the tower now is Ethernet (usually over multi-mode fiber) and power.

The particular site he was at a few days ago, the tower is a wooden pole on a Mesa above a western Colorado town.

Almost all the panels are physically down-tilted to point into town and the majority are on the town side of the frame on the pole, which is also the downwind side for heavy prevailing winds so it made the load calculations show the pole wouldn’t survive Winter wind. So the carriers agreed to pay the tower company to guy the pole. That’s the work he was checking on and auditing for the tower company last week.

Also shows the cell companies really don’t give a crap about two things: Covering backcountry where there’s no people, and money. They’ll throw cash at a problem like that without batting an eye.

It’s much harder to find sites and permit them for tower or other “stealth” structures that have fiber access, than it is to pay for the stuff at the sites.
 
Texting while flying is the real unspoken pilot killer. I would never do such a thing.
 
ETres said:
Texting while flying is the real unspoken pilot killer.
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Any facts to back this up?

When I just now searched the NTSB website for statistics or reports of fatal aircraft accidents involving distraction due to texting, I came up only with one helicopter fuel-exhaustion crash. Maybe there are more, as you are saying — but I haven’t found them yet.
 
NoHeat said:
Any facts to back this up?

When I just now searched the NTSB website for statistics or reports of fatal aircraft accidents involving distraction due to texting, I came up only with one helicopter fuel-exhaustion crash. Maybe there are more, as you are saying — but I haven’t found them yet.
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Your sarcasm detector needs to be overhauled. :D
 
ETres said:
Texting while flying is the real unspoken pilot killer. I would never do such a thing.
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You posted this from 4000 feet, didn't you?
 
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