Can you decline a SID?

Palmpilot said:
This has been covered in previous threads. Others can probably explain it better, but I'll take a stab at it. The requirement to fly an ODP or an ATC-assigned DP is in 14 CFR 91.175(f)(3). Note that the beginning of paragraph (f) states "This paragraph applies to persons operating an aircraft under part 121, 125, 129, or 135 of this chapter." No mention of Part 91.

AIM 5-2-8 says that Part 91 pilots are "strongly encouraged" to file and fly a DP, but that is not synonymous with "are required to."

By the way, the same AIM paragraph says that "ATC clearance must be received prior to flying a SID," so I was mistaken to include SIDs in my statement.
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that's where you confused me. A SID is a workload reducing ATC clearance, but a clearance. An ODP may be part of a clearance but in the absence of a clearance, a pilot prerogative (at least in the absence of a SID, which also gives obstacle clearance).
 
THIS IS SID:
sid1b32.jpg
 
JimNtexas said:
That's odd. Our KLN-89b has sids and stars in it. I'll double check our paperwork, but I am unaware of any restriction on flying these procedures.

ETA: I see what you mean looking at that spreadsheet. Still, it's odd that sids and stars show up in the database.

Of course our Cardinal also has a KNS-80 IFR approved RNAV, so perhaps we're ok to use that.
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Regular SIDs and STARs based on ground navigation aids are found in the KLN94 Database, but RNAV SIDs and RNAV STARs are not. Your KNS80 can be used to fly the ones based on the groiund navigation aids, but not the ones that have RNAV as part of the title of the procedure.
 
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You can just tell ATC that you, 1) don't have the procedure, or 2) that you are unable to comply with the procedure. It's better when all that's true, but either way it works. However, most of the DPs (SIDs) are pretty easy for the piston crowd. Look up the Hugo 2 departure from Concord, NC (KJQF) and it's like WTF (where to fly)! If you flip to page 2 of the procedure, the text description puts it simply, departing Rwy 2, fly runway heading or Rwy 20, turn to 150 after departure and expect radar vectors.

Scott Best, CFII
 
SbestCFII said:
You can just tell ATC that you, 1) don't have the procedure, or 2) that you are unable to comply with the procedure. It's better when all that's true, but either way it works. However, most of the DPs (SIDs) are pretty easy for the piston crowd. Look up the Hugo 2 departure from Concord, NC (KJQF) and it's like WTF (where to fly)! If you flip to page 2 of the procedure, the text description puts it simply, departing Rwy 2, fly runway heading or Rwy 20, turn to 150 after departure and expect radar vectors.

Scott Best, CFII
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I don't understand your point. You are an IFR pilot, on and IFR plan, required to have the IFR charts, and yet you tell ATC that you don't have the procedure? Or unable to comply? This is your advice as a CFII? What do you say when they ask you why?

Around certain airports I am sure that wouldn't be acceptable. North Las Vegas, Dallas Addison, etc, etc.

What's the big deal anyway? If you can fly an approach and the missed you should be able to fly a SID easily. Most of them can be done with a single Nav head.

I don't get it.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't understand your point. You are an IFR pilot, on and IFR plan, required to have the IFR charts, and yet you tell ATC that you don't have the procedure? Or unable to comply? This is your advice as a CFII? What do you say when they ask you why?

Around certain airports I am sure that wouldn't be acceptable. North Las Vegas, Dallas Addison, etc, etc.

What's the big deal anyway? If you can fly an approach and the missed you should be able to fly a SID easily. Most of them can be done with a single Nav head.

I don't get it.
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In most cases, I would agree with you. However, sometimes a SID, STAR, or ODP may require equipment you do not have installed, in which case, you are unable to fly the procedure. For example, many aircraft are not equipped to fly a RNAV SID, STAR, or ODP, even if they have an IFR GPS, such as the KLN94 or GNC300XL. If an aircraft is /U and the procedure requires DME would be another example.
 
Just FYI on how the Army Aviation looks at SIDs.
"If an aviator does not possess a preprinted DP or, for any other reason, does not wish to use a DP, the aviator is expected to advise ATC; notification is accomplished by filing 'NO DP' in the remarks section of the filed flight plan or by advising ATC."

I never taught this view on DP acceptance but that's what the instrument manual instructs. It really needs to be rewritten.
 
John Collins said:
In most cases, I would agree with you. However, sometimes a SID, STAR, or ODP may require equipment you do not have installed, in which case, you are unable to fly the procedure. For example, many aircraft are not equipped to fly a RNAV SID, STAR, or ODP, even if they have an IFR GPS, such as the KLN94 or GNC300XL. If an aircraft is /U and the procedure requires DME would be another example.
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I'm thinking Alex wasn't referring to unable to comply because of lack of required equipment but rather just saying it as a way of forcing the controller to read the departure clearance longhand because he likes to write long clearances.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm thinking Alex wasn't referring to unable to comply because of lack of required equipment but rather just saying it as a way of forcing the controller to read the departure clearance longhand because he likes to write long clearances.
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Yes, exactly. If you don't have the equipment then ATC shouldn't assign you that clearance anyway.

I can't imagine the ass chewing ATC would give someone leaving KVGT (North Las Vegas) when they wanted the Northtown3 read to them or saying they just don't want to fly it. It makes me laugh just thinking about it. Someone brave try that and let me know.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Yes, exactly. If you don't have the equipment then ATC shouldn't assign you that clearance anyway.

I can't imagine the ass chewing ATC would give someone leaving KVGT (North Las Vegas) when they wanted the Northtown3 read to them or saying they just don't want to fly it. It makes me laugh just thinking about it. Someone brave try that and let me know.
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Someone brave? Someone stupid would be more accurate. Declining a required route is declining to depart. Demand the clearance be read longhand and expect to wait for a period of lower activity on the frequency.
 
Picking up IFR clearances en route is a solution to departing from difficult airports assuming VFR weather. Some years ago, I got tired of climbing out westbound on an eastbound flight out of HSD in the OKC area, and just started filing from a VOR that was on my way. (I was filing in a Mooney to Class A altitudes.) Problem solved.
 
ebetancourt said:
Picking up IFR clearances en route is a solution to departing from difficult airports assuming VFR weather. Some years ago, I got tired of climbing out westbound on an eastbound flight out of HSD in the OKC area, and just started filing from a VOR that was on my way. (I was filing in a Mooney to Class A altitudes.) Problem solved.
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Say you did that and were flying at 8000 ft along an airway in VMC about 1000 ft below a ceiling. The airway has an MEA of 13000. Would you expect to pick up a clearance to climb to MEA while continuing your direction along the airway?
 
November 12345, can you maintain own terrain and obstacle clearance to 13,000?
 
skidoo said:
Say you did that and were flying at 8000 ft along an airway in VMC about 1000 ft below a ceiling. The airway has an MEA of 13000. Would you expect to pick up a clearance to climb to MEA while continuing your direction along the airway?
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unhh, I think I said, "Assuming VFR weather." I would not consider your scenario VFR weather for my purposes.

Edit: And I would not be flying along an airway, not my style.
 
ebetancourt said:
unhh, I think I said, "Assuming VFR weather." I would not consider your scenario VFR weather for my purposes.

Edit: And I would not be flying along an airway, not my style.
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So you did... I was thinking along the line of VFR weather below, but needing to climb through IFR to get out of a mountainous valley. Also, I was suggesting an airway because the MEA's are likely lower. So, say going direct in the direction you desire but the SID is opposite your desired direction, and the area MEA is 13K, I was wondering if in this scenario, what would you do if the ceiling was at 9K MSL, VFR below with areas 6K AGL?

I understand that you won't see that in your area, but it is interesting to see others perspective...
 
skidoo said:
So you did... I was thinking along the line of VFR weather below, but needing to climb through IFR to get out of a mountainous valley. Also, I was suggesting an airway because the MEA's are likely lower. So, say going direct in the direction you desire but the SID is opposite your desired direction, and the area MEA is 13K, I was wondering if in this scenario, what would you do if the ceiling was at 9K MSL, VFR below with areas 6K AGL?

I understand that you won't see that in your area, but it is interesting to see others perspective...
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Sometimes when I leave Taos I depart VFR and use the airway just as you described. The airway is 11k vs. 15.3k mea. Then I climb on the airway to get on top, often 18-19k.
 
skidoo said:
Say you did that and were flying at 8000 ft along an airway in VMC about 1000 ft below a ceiling. The airway has an MEA of 13000. Would you expect to pick up a clearance to climb to MEA while continuing your direction along the airway?
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I would.
 
skidoo said:
So you did... I was thinking along the line of VFR weather below, but needing to climb through IFR to get out of a mountainous valley. Also, I was suggesting an airway because the MEA's are likely lower. So, say going direct in the direction you desire but the SID is opposite your desired direction, and the area MEA is 13K, I was wondering if in this scenario, what would you do if the ceiling was at 9K MSL, VFR below with areas 6K AGL?

I understand that you won't see that in your area, but it is interesting to see others perspective...
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I have flown in the west, SLC for example from the Denver area IFR/IMC at night in a Mooney. I have flown the US west and other interesting parts of the world, but in a four engine jet climb was never an issue. I guess my point was and is, if there is an easier way I will take it. Add the scenario you suggest and I don't think it is easier.

In terms of picking up a clearance below MEA, what do you suppose people do when they pick up a clearance on the ground at a non-towered airport?
 
Bottom line: You sure can decline a SID. Just expect the appropriate penalty box.
 
ebetancourt said:
In terms of picking up a clearance below MEA, what do you suppose people do when they pick up a clearance on the ground at a non-towered airport?
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That happens on every IFR departure, tower or not. :wink2:

What matters more is whether the airport is an IFR airport.
 
aterpster said:
That happens on every IFR departure, tower or not. :wink2:

What matters more is whether the airport is an IFR airport.
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What do you mean by "an IFR airport"? One with a published instrument departure procedure (SID or ODP)? One with IAPs? Or one where conditions are currently below VFR minimums?
 
azure said:
What do you mean by "an IFR airport"? One with a published instrument departure procedure (SID or ODP)? One with IAPs? Or one where conditions are currently below VFR minimums?
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One that has one, or more IAPs. It will have takeoff minimums and either an ODP, an abbreviated ODP, or a diverse departure area.
 
In other words, if no IAP is published, then you're on your own for obstacle avoidance on an IFR departure.
 
Palmpilot said:
In other words, if no IAP is published, then you're on your own for obstacle avoidance on an IFR departure.
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And if there is an IAP and an ODP, is there anything wrong with desiring, or not legal, to be "on your own" for obstacle avoidance on an IFR departure?
 
skidoo said:
And if there is an IAP and an ODP, is there anything wrong with desiring, or not legal, to be "on your own" for obstacle avoidance on an IFR departure?
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My understanding is that under part 91, you can do it if ATC does not assign an ODP or SID in your clearance. See post #39 for my reasons for thinking so. Obviously it requires careful planning.
 
skidoo said:
And if there is an IAP and an ODP, is there anything wrong with desiring, or not legal, to be "on your own" for obstacle avoidance on an IFR departure?
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The only regulatory obligation you have as a Part 91-only operator is to comply with your clearance.

Otherwise, you can takeoff without regard to weather or anything else for that matter so long as you don't pis* ATC off and don't bite dirt. :yikes:
 
aterpster said:
One that has one, or more IAPs. It will have takeoff minimums and either an ODP, an abbreviated ODP, or a diverse departure area.
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Okay, so suppose it's NOT an IFR airport. No ODP, no diverse departure area. Ceiling is 600 feet. I file, call up ATC to get my clearance on the ground, or have it relayed to me through FSS. Can they give me a clearance? Let's say I know the area and where the obstacles are and have a good plan to avoid them, so the issue isn't safety but legality.
 
"Upon reaching 3000 feet, cleared as filed. Time now 2100. Clearance void at 2110."

Ceiling 600? 601 to 3,000 becomes problemmatic.
 
bbchien said:
Ceiling 600? 601 to 3,000 becomes problemmatic.
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Exactly the reason for my question. So they can't just ask if you can maintain own obstacle clearance to 3000, say "enter controlled airspace heading xxx" and let you depart IFR?

I've often wondered what if I'm somewhere like 89D and low clouds roll in. It's hard to even get a cell signal there, but it sounds like even if I could, I'd still have to be able to depart VFR. No real advantage over picking up in the air.
 
azure said:
Okay, so suppose it's NOT an IFR airport. No ODP, no diverse departure area. Ceiling is 600 feet. I file, call up ATC to get my clearance on the ground, or have it relayed to me through FSS. Can they give me a clearance?
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Affirmative.
 
Sure you can decline a DP (SID), but there is little reason not to do it. In general, DPs are not as complicated as the graphical presentation makes them out to be. Just read the text description (usually only a sentence or two).

As far as ODPs, if you see a "T" in the briefing portion of the approach chart, you are responsible for reviewing the take-off minima and ODPs and for follwing those procedures as appropriate. These are not assigned by ATC, but it is expected that you will review and adhere to these when departing the airport.
 
azure said:
Exactly the reason for my question. So they can't just ask if you can maintain own obstacle clearance to 3000, say "enter controlled airspace heading xxx" and let you depart IFR?

I've often wondered what if I'm somewhere like 89D and low clouds roll in. It's hard to even get a cell signal there, but it sounds like even if I could, I'd still have to be able to depart VFR. No real advantage over picking up in the air.
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They don't have to ask if you can maintain your own obstacle clearance, you're expected to do that. All they have to do is issue an altitude not lower than the minimum IFR altitude.
 
azure said:
Exactly the reason for my question. So they can't just ask if you can maintain own obstacle clearance to 3000, say "enter controlled airspace heading xxx" and let you depart IFR?

I've often wondered what if I'm somewhere like 89D and low clouds roll in. It's hard to even get a cell signal there, but it sounds like even if I could, I'd still have to be able to depart VFR. No real advantage over picking up in the air.
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If trhey don't have the radar coverage, and yo don't have the obstacle clearance, do you think ATC is going to take responsibility for you between 601 and 3,000? NOPE.

They'll give you ronca's clearance, allright, but it'll be on you to get to the clearance origin, safely.
 
bbchien said:
If trhey don't have the radar coverage, and yo don't have the obstacle clearance, do you think ATC is going to take responsibility for you between 601 and 3,000? NOPE.

They'll give you ronca's clearance, allright, but it'll be on you to get to the clearance origin, safely.
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The clearance origin is the departure airport.
 
bbchien said:
If trhey don't have the radar coverage, and yo don't have the obstacle clearance, do you think ATC is going to take responsibility for you between 601 and 3,000? NOPE.

They'll give you ronca's clearance, allright, but it'll be on you to get to the clearance origin, safely.
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No problem with taking ones own responsibility. I think the question here is given that clearance, is there anything not legal when between 601 and 3000 ft?
 
skidoo said:
No problem with taking ones own responsibility. I think the question here is given that clearance, is there anything not legal when between 601 and 3000 ft?
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Do you mean this clearance?
bbchien said:
"Upon reaching 3000 feet, cleared as filed. Time now 2100. Clearance void at 2110."

Ceiling 600? 601 to 3,000 becomes problemmatic.
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Yes, there's something not legal. IMC at 600 AGL with an IFR clearance that is not in effect until reaching 3000 MSL.
 
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