C182 v 737 KAUS Oct16 2024 RA

I suspect the Cessna realized they had (or were about to) blundered into the Austin Class C airspace and turned to get out/avoid. Interesting comment from AA about the "fog". Where was that pesky cloud?
 
KAUS 161453Z 03016KT 10SM FEW041 FEW120 19/05 A3032 RMK AO2 PK WND 06026/1419 SLP261 T01890050 53033

KAUS 161553Z 05015G22KT 10SM FEW043 SCT150 19/05 A3033 RMK AO2 SLP267 T01940050
 
Is this really a big deal? It looks like the Cessna was outside the C airspace. And isn't 400' 80% of normal separation? I've definitely had approach intentionally bring 737s within 500' of me when flying under the B here.
 
I suspect the Cessna realized they had (or were about to) blundered into the Austin Class C airspace and turned to get out/avoid. Interesting comment from AA about the "fog". Where was that pesky cloud?
The fog of being an epauletted pilot and not having time to look out the window when on a visual approach.
 
Is this really a big deal?
No.

what that "aviation content" miner doesn't understand is that signal boosting these nothingburgers does nothing but galvanize the sentiment that piston lawnmowers are a threat to the mouthbreathing public's entitlement to reserved flying bus lanes.

For someone who claims to be passionate about aviation, his actions run counter to that spirit. But I don't believe the premise anyways, he's just another underwater basketweaving surplus cog looking for a monetizable shtick in the gig economy. I'm almost sympathetic tbh.

In the end, don't take aviation advice from laptop class cogs whose formal education is a BA in islamic world studies... from a catholic university no less lol. :rofl:
 
As three paragraph screeds go, this one gets a gold star. Chapeau!

No.

what that "aviation content" miner doesn't understand is that signal boosting these nothingburgers does nothing but galvanize the sentiment that piston lawnmowers are a threat to the mouthbreathing public's entitlement to reserved flying bus lanes.

For someone who claims to be passionate about aviation, his actions run counter to that spirit. But I don't believe the premise anyways, he's just another underwater basketweaving surplus cog looking for a monetizable shtick in the gig economy. I'm almost sympathetic tbh.

In the end, don't take aviation advice from laptop class cogs whose formal education is a BA in islamic world studies... from a catholic university no less lol. :rofl:
 
No.

what that "aviation content" miner doesn't understand is that signal boosting these nothingburgers does nothing but galvanize the sentiment that piston lawnmowers are a threat to the mouthbreathing public's entitlement to reserved flying bus lanes.

For someone who claims to be passionate about aviation, his actions run counter to that spirit. But I don't believe the premise anyways, he's just another underwater basketweaving surplus cog looking for a monetizable shtick in the gig economy. I'm almost sympathetic tbh.

In the end, don't take aviation advice from laptop class cogs whose formal education is a BA in islamic world studies... from a catholic university no less lol. :rofl:
Jesus, I thought you were just speaking in hyperbole about the author. Nope.
 
The comms and the positions on this vid are different than the Flightradar one. All he had to do is keep AAL at 2,500 and extend him another mile. Then when the **** hit the fan, get ASH out to the east and put the second AAL in front of them. Just was trying to cut it too close working around the VFR.

 
The comms and the positions on this vid are different than the Flightradar one. All he had to do is keep AAL at 2,500 and extend him another mile. Then when the **** hit the fan, get ASH out to the east and put the second AAL in front of them. Just was trying to cut it too close working around the VFR.

Looks to me like ATC turned an airliner directly at traffic outside ATC's airspace that ATC wasn't talking to and the airliner didn't have in sight. The Cessna chose an inopportune time to turn around, but that America flight was going to get pretty close regardless.
 
galvanize the sentiment that piston lawnmowers are a threat to the mouthbreathing public's

I fear that the response will be a bigger airspace grab; making the class C larger - ie to the surface where the 182 was.
(I'm not big on the ongoing and rampant loss of freedom posed by any kind of airspace grabs)
 
The fog of being an epauletted pilot and not having time to look out the window when on a visual
Seconds later, AA pilot reported airport in sight, 7nm out.
 
I fear that the response will be a bigger airspace grab; making the class C larger - ie to the surface where the 182 was.
(I'm not big on the ongoing and rampant loss of freedom posed by any kind of airspace grabs)
If it's pipeline it won't make that big of an impact.
 
8PG thinks he below the floor of the outer ring of the C. He is not. Several times, right in the final corridor he pops up to 2200 and even 2300(mode C). Bad place to make an alt mistake. Even if he's not on freq, it would be nice if the 'high wing' were not in the ring of the class C, right in the appr corridor. When I am under a B or C ring, I'm careful to keep 200 feet below, so that even a mistake in my alt reporting won't put me inside the ring.

YMMV
 
The fog of being an epauletted pilot and not having time to look out the window when on a visual approach.
Even if the AA pilot had the airplane in sight before he got the RA once the RA happens he has to follow it. That's because what happened with the PSA crew in the San Diego crash. They mistook another aircraft for the one that eventually had the midair with. So if TCAS starts providing an RA it has to be followed no matter what.
 
Being based in the Austin area, I can tell you we have a constant battle with ATC. We've even had meetings with some of them, but it doesn't change anything. When I call them, they vector me for no reason, when I don't they complain.

One day I was flying outside of their airspace, pretty close to it, but at 4500' (elevation is 541'). I was listening to approach and got a call, "N2743G, are you on frequency". At this point, I'd already heard him chew out three other pilots for not talking to him and being near his airspace, including one that was about 1000' over his airspace, so I knew when I responded it would get interesting. He told me if I was going to "putt" around near his airspace (I was flying in a straight line for over 50 miles), I needed to descend to 2500'. This made no sense because I was close to the approach end of the airspace and getting lower would put me closer to the airlines, but I simply replied, "Roger, N2743G". There were a lot of puffy clouds below me, so I started looking for a way down where I wouldn't get too close to the clouds or pick up too much speed. He called me again. "N2743G, did you understand my request? I'm having to vector Delta around to stay clear of you." I replied, "Yes, I understood it, I understand it's a request and I'm not in your airspace, so I'll comply when I can safely get down. Tell Delta to have fun flying circles, they're nowhere near me." I didn't get a response from him.

Because I've heard that attitude so many times from them, I will no longer respond when asked if I'm on the frequency.
 
Being based in the Austin area, I can tell you we have a constant battle with ATC. We've even had meetings with some of them, but it doesn't change anything. When I call them, they vector me for no reason, when I don't they complain.

One day I was flying outside of their airspace, pretty close to it, but at 4500' (elevation is 541'). I was listening to approach and got a call, "N2743G, are you on frequency". At this point, I'd already heard him chew out three other pilots for not talking to him and being near his airspace, including one that was about 1000' over his airspace, so I knew when I responded it would get interesting. He told me if I was going to "putt" around near his airspace (I was flying in a straight line for over 50 miles), I needed to descend to 2500'. This made no sense because I was close to the approach end of the airspace and getting lower would put me closer to the airlines, but I simply replied, "Roger, N2743G". There were a lot of puffy clouds below me, so I started looking for a way down where I wouldn't get too close to the clouds or pick up too much speed. He called me again. "N2743G, did you understand my request? I'm having to vector Delta around to stay clear of you." I replied, "Yes, I understood it, I understand it's a request and I'm not in your airspace, so I'll comply when I can safely get down. Tell Delta to have fun flying circles, they're nowhere near me." I didn't get a response from him.

Because I've heard that attitude so many times from them, I will no longer respond when asked if I'm on the frequency.
I had a similar experience getting vectored all around their airspace on the way back from Padre to DFW while on flight following. They either need to petition the FAA for a big B or be happy with what they have. But taking airliners down to the bottom of the shelf when there are Cessnas flying right under it is on ATC. And they should know better than expecting those airline pilots to look out the window.
 
I had a similar experience getting vectored all around their airspace on the way back from Padre to DFW while on flight following. They either need to petition the FAA for a big B or be happy with what they have. But taking airliners down to the bottom of the shelf when there are Cessnas flying right under it is on ATC. And they should know better than expecting those airline pilots to look out the window.
There’s a thread on the Reddit ATC sub about this incident. Several AUS controllers posted that they basically despise “entitled” VFR pilots.
 
Looks to me like ATC turned an airliner directly at traffic outside ATC's airspace that ATC wasn't talking to and the airliner didn't have in sight. The Cessna chose an inopportune time to turn around, but that America flight was going to get pretty close regardless.
Correct, but if he would’ve kept him at 2,500 and extended him slightly, would’ve been no factor. He was basically playing chicken with the VFR by descending AAL to 2,000.

I used to do that as a student on approach. I remember descending a flight of 4 F-18s to the same altitude (2,500 ft) of a VFR. My mindset was that’s the altitude for the overhead initial and I’m not required to separate between them and a 1200 code. Well my monitor pointed out the conflict. I told him I’d give a traffic call which he replied doesn’t absolve my responsibility in preventing a collision.

It’s thinking outside the box. Just because a procedure specifies an altitude, doesn’t mean it can’t be modified in the interest of safety. In my case, they could hit the initial at 3,000 and still easily make break altitude. In this case, while I’m sure the MVA and the norm is to issue VA clearance is 2,000, 2,500 ft will work just fine. Too often these controllers get caught up in repetition and can’t adapt to change. They put too much priority in airline handing as well.
 
Being based in the Austin area, I can tell you we have a constant battle with ATC. We've even had meetings with some of them, but it doesn't change anything. When I call them, they vector me for no reason, when I don't they complain.

One day I was flying outside of their airspace, pretty close to it, but at 4500' (elevation is 541'). I was listening to approach and got a call, "N2743G, are you on frequency". At this point, I'd already heard him chew out three other pilots for not talking to him and being near his airspace, including one that was about 1000' over his airspace, so I knew when I responded it would get interesting. He told me if I was going to "putt" around near his airspace (I was flying in a straight line for over 50 miles), I needed to descend to 2500'. This made no sense because I was close to the approach end of the airspace and getting lower would put me closer to the airlines, but I simply replied, "Roger, N2743G". There were a lot of puffy clouds below me, so I started looking for a way down where I wouldn't get too close to the clouds or pick up too much speed. He called me again. "N2743G, did you understand my request? I'm having to vector Delta around to stay clear of you." I replied, "Yes, I understood it, I understand it's a request and I'm not in your airspace, so I'll comply when I can safely get down. Tell Delta to have fun flying circles, they're nowhere near me." I didn't get a response from him.

Because I've heard that attitude so many times from them, I will no longer respond when asked if I'm on the frequency.
This anecdote is exactly the reason I have the animus I have with that unearned arrogant TRACON. It's a known quantity and has been for years, especially as that town got too big for its britches and the airline volume ramped up.
There’s a thread on the Reddit ATC sub about this incident. Several AUS controllers posted that they basically despise “entitled” VFR pilots.
Yikes, I'm surprised they didn't keep up the pretense. There it is. It's not just VFR non-revenue traffic, you should hear the screeds they've given us .mil folks on frequency. It's a very airline-centering TRACON, when they're not trying to kill them too, that is.
 
And they should know better than expecting those airline pilots to look out the window.

I know you like to grind your axe when it comes to airline guys, but do you really think we just ignore the call when traffic is called out to us?

Wish it were allowed - it'd do some of you some good to sit on a jumpseat sometime.
 
Correct, but if he would’ve kept him at 2,500 and extended him slightly, would’ve been no factor. He was basically playing chicken with the VFR by descending AAL to 2,000.

I used to do that as a student on approach. I remember descending a flight of 4 F-18s to the same altitude (2,500 ft) of a VFR. My mindset was that’s the altitude for the overhead initial and I’m not required to separate between them and a 1200 code. Well my monitor pointed out the conflict. I told him I’d give a traffic call which he replied doesn’t absolve my responsibility in preventing a collision.

It’s thinking outside the box. Just because a procedure specifies an altitude, doesn’t mean it can’t be modified in the interest of safety. In my case, they could hit the initial at 3,000 and still easily make break altitude. In this case, while I’m sure the MVA and the norm is to issue VA clearance is 2,000, 2,500 ft will work just fine. Too often these controllers get caught up in repetition and can’t adapt to change. They put too much priority in airline handing as well.
The thread in r/atc is really enlightening. There's a bunch of controllers saying they do this all the time, pilots saying this is why they're hated and controllers eager to banish GA from the skies. Those controllers may not be representative, but one might conclude there's a culture problem at AUS.
 
I know you like to grind your axe when it comes to airline guys, but do you really think we just ignore the call when traffic is called out to us?
I'm sure you don't, but these guys did, and plenty others are probably proud to brag on social media about how they're too busy to look for gliders and bug smashers. I'm curious how many you spot when you're VFR and you don't get a traffic call. Around here is probably near none that do.
Wish it were allowed - it'd do some of you some good to sit on a jumpseat sometime.
Love to.
 
The thread in r/atc is really enlightening. There's a bunch of controllers saying they do this all the time, pilots saying this is why they're hated and controllers eager to banish GA from the skies. Those controllers may not be representative, but one might conclude there's a culture problem at AUS.
Well It goes back controllers wanting VFRs up their freq for FF. They want that because they because they want to restrict what the VFR does to make life easier. In this case, you can bet they wanted the C182 up the freq to either vector him clear of the corridor, or restricted him to a lower altitude.

It’s like the F-16 vs the C150 at CHS years ago. People question why to descend the F-16 that low for the TACAN approach. Well that’s a normal altitude to assign with no traffic. Problem is, the controller still needs to deconflict with 1200s. Playing chicken and thinking a traffic call will resolve the problem isn’t the safest approach. A slight vector or an altitude restriction can work wonders.
 
I'm sure you don't, but these guys did, and plenty others are probably proud to brag on social media about how they're too busy to look for gliders and bug smashers. I'm curious how many you spot when you're VFR and you don't get a traffic call. Around here is probably near none that do.

I'd like to think that the vast majority of us don't consider ourselves to be too busy to look for GA traffic - specifically when something is called out to us. GA especially tends to get our attention because VFR in particular can be less predictable. But I do agree that looking out the window and searching for traffic is something we could all do more of - not just us airline guys, but anyone flying equipment with lots of doodads that distract our eyes inside. I certainly could be better.

And if it were up to me you'd be welcome up front, but we can't seem to get the FAA to even let controllers go out and do it - something I think would be beneficial to everyone. :(
 
For your own well-being you need to be talking to folks when you are flying under and/or immediately adjacent to B and C airspace. So yesterday, I was watching ORD arrivals on on flightradr 24. In particular, I was looking at arrivals from the North being vectored to join the localizer(s) for the westbound runways. Practically every one of them was below the 3000 foot class B shelf before crossing the shoreline. Now, this may have been because there were no VFRs out there, but that's frequently transited VFR airspace. Lots of traffic lurking in and around that and similar airspace.
 
For your own well-being you need to be talking to folks when you are flying under and/or immediately adjacent to B and C airspace. So yesterday, I was watching ORD arrivals on on flightradr 24. In particular, I was looking at arrivals from the North being vectored to join the localizer(s) for the westbound runways. Practically every one of them was below the 3000 foot class B shelf before crossing the shoreline. Now, this may have been because there were no VFRs out there, but that's frequently transited VFR airspace. Lots of traffic lurking in and around that and similar airspace.
No thank you. In this case in AUS, it could result in a PD, as I noted he was not under the shelf for part of his flight around the C. However, if I'm not IN the C or B, or ATA, I'm not talking to anyone. Hard to give me a PD when I'm a 1200 mode C in class E or G. There's a guy sitting at a scope, with a bunch of tapes(old school! lolz) he's moving through indian country. So, for the well being of everyone, the big metal tube fliers need to have their head out when transiting MY airspace. And - we'll all get along famously.

Edit to add; The ban on meatsacks sitting in the jump seat goes back to an ATP(I think Russian?) giving his kid a ride up front, then put him in the pilot seat, where they managed to kill a few hundred other meatsacks.
 
Well It goes back controllers wanting VFRs up their freq for FF. They want that because they because they want to restrict what the VFR does to make life easier. In this case, you can bet they wanted the C182 up the freq to either vector him clear of the corridor, or restricted him to a lower altitude.

It’s like the F-16 vs the C150 at CHS years ago. People question why to descend the F-16 that low for the TACAN approach. Well that’s a normal altitude to assign with no traffic. Problem is, the controller still needs to deconflict with 1200s. Playing chicken and thinking a traffic call will resolve the problem isn’t the safest approach. A slight vector or an altitude restriction can work wonders.
I've heard controllers say many times that they want me on FF to make everyone's life easier. Of course sometimes you'll get these clowns:
1729540457843.png
And there are plenty of others in there who think that everyone's life is easier when the VFRs are far away.

There was one poster who tried to point out the hypocrisy of controllers criticizing VFRs for being right below the shelf floor while putting airliners right above the shelf floor....
 
From pix of posts above:

“If they implemented something like you mentioned, I'd bet 90% of our safety issues would go away overnight”

Which one at AUS a while ago was squawking 1200: the SWA departing or the FedEx about to land on them?
 
From pix of posts above:

“If they implemented something like you mentioned, I'd bet 90% of our safety issues would go away overnight”

Which one at AUS a while ago was squawking 1200: the SWA departing or the FedEx about to land on them?
That's the other 10%....
 
For your own well-being you need to be talking to folks when you are flying under and/or immediately adjacent to B and C airspace. So yesterday, I was watching ORD arrivals on on flightradr 24. In particular, I was looking at arrivals from the North being vectored to join the localizer(s) for the westbound runways. Practically every one of them was below the 3000 foot class B shelf before crossing the shoreline. Now, this may have been because there were no VFRs out there, but that's frequently transited VFR airspace. Lots of traffic lurking in and around that and similar airspace.
I regularly make a run from MRB-HWY-W75 that brings me under the IAD class B by a few hundred feet and right by the SFRA by about 2 miles. Never talked to anyone. When I first started making it, 30 years ago, the class B controller blew me off and I never tried again. I’ve made that run hundreds of times.
 
I was watching ORD arrivals on on flightradr 24. In particular, I was looking at arrivals from the North being vectored to join the localizer(s) for the westbound runways. Practically every one of them was below the 3000 foot class B shelf before crossing the shoreline.

You sure? Nobody should be below the Bravo shelf (they really like to beat us up about it). It's been awhile since I've had to fly into ORD, but I seem to remember crossing the fixes over the shoreline at 4000'.
 
You sure? Nobody should be below the Bravo shelf (they really like to beat us up about it). It's been awhile since I've had to fly into ORD, but I seem to remember crossing the fixes over the shoreline at 4000'.

Yeah, you know I looked back at it just a moment ago and they were in fact doing as you suggested, What’s interesting is how they were setting some of them up for the approach yesterday versus today. Today they are bringing them all out in to the lake and turning them onto the localizer about 20 miles out. Yesterday, though, they were bringing quite a few due south from the North and then turning them onto about a 12 mile final – these folks were crossing shore at what foreflight was giving as about 2750 – which in hindsight is pressure altitude – so they may in fact have been right on the floor of the Bravo crossing the shoreline. Anyone ever been sent into ORD from the North like that?

I’m pretty positive on the controllers that work most class B and C airspace. This summer I was in South Florida and coming out of Tamiami heading towards Tampa and was talking with a Miami approach guy - good guy. I got over in the area to the West where the class B floor goes up to 3000 and I thought I’d go up to 2500 and the controller was like let’s keep you below 2000 for Miami and Lauderdale arrivals. Glad we did that – I saw some pretty cool planes – best one had to be the BA A380 that passed behind me at 3000 feet. While I was flying around out there I passed a Malibu a few hundred feet above me who wasn’t talking to him – he didn’t have much nice to say about him. As before, controller was a good guy – he was doing his job and I sensed part of that was looking out for me as I don’t think any of us would like to be 500 feet below an A380.
 
I strongly encourage everyone who hasn't to try to get on a tour of your local TRACON facility. Barring that, get in touch with your local TRACON and discuss setting up a safety meeting at your local airport with a representative from the TRACON to discuss how we all interact with each other in the "big sky". Fullerton (CA) airport has been holding annual meetings for several years with a controller from the SOCAL TRACON, and we have had a couple of TRACON tours with them (we also had a tour with ZLA Center). It has been very enlightening, and has also helped ATC understand our operational concerns. Keep in mind, SOCAL is the busiest, most complex airspace in the world. If our small GA pilot community can have a good relationship with ATC, there is no reason that good relationship shouldn't exist everywhere. It takes cooperation and education.

What we don't see from the light-GA side is the required separations needed when we're not talking to ATC on FF. There is a pretty big bubble needed to protect IFR airplanes (and it is a really big bubble for airliners). However, if ATC is talking to you and they can confirm where you are and where you're going (especially altitude), it can make things much more efficient with minimal if any need for you to deviate. I understand the desire to not always want to talk to ATC. I'm "guilty" of that myself, but now that I understand where the "hot spots" are, I have a better understanding of how not to be in ATC's "way" on the occasions I either opt not to talk to ATC or have trouble getting contact.
 
I'd really like to work up some sympathy for the poor Tracon/Appr/Dep/Center/Tower. But - I just can't muster it up. I've been in the NAS for almost 50 years. And - for almost 50 years - GA has taken it in the ASS without even a bit of lube. Boeing runs over a Cessna, more controlled airspace. Mil runs over another Cessna, hey - lets have a new R number, or MOA, or Alert. New rules for GA to enter controlled airspace. Doesn't help the pilot, but it's all for the utility of ATC. Oh, lets cut off VFR without alt reporting to 10,000'. Why? Because we can, you GA whining bugsmashers. Comm planes are used for terrorist attack, and don't hold your breath, but more regs and static for GA pilots.

It's like the frog dropped in a pot of cool water, on the stove. 100% of GA gets the shaft, for something we have very little or no control over. I'm sick of it. And, AOPA was supposed to be our protector. 100% fail there as well. So, nope I'm not going to make it easier for others who have no interest in making it easier for me. It may sound churlish, but that's the way I'm seeing it. So, keep the alum overcast away from my little 1200 mode C target. Sorry(not really)
 
I'm sure you don't, but these guys did, and plenty others are probably proud to brag on social media about how they're too busy to look for gliders and bug smashers. I'm curious how many you spot when you're VFR and you don't get a traffic call. Around here is probably near none that do.

Love to.
No, they didn’t.
 
For your own well-being you need to be talking to folks when you are flying under and/or immediately adjacent to B and C airspace. So yesterday, I was watching ORD arrivals on on flightradr 24. In particular, I was looking at arrivals from the North being vectored to join the localizer(s) for the westbound runways. Practically every one of them was below the 3000 foot class B shelf before crossing the shoreline. Now, this may have been because there were no VFRs out there, but that's frequently transited VFR airspace. Lots of traffic lurking in and around that and similar airspace.
I find this a bit hard to believe. It’s drilled into airline pilots not to descend below class B airspace even if cleared for a visual. There is a practical aspect also as going below the bravo requires slowing to 200 knots.
 
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