C150 "Deregistered" log book entry...anyone familiar? Aircraft value?

[Aaron H]

Hi all,

I've been looking for a reliable time builder/traveller for me (180lbs) and my wife (150lbs) and i came across a 1974 Cessna150 with 800 hrs, nice paint, nice interior, and stol kit. Most of the 150s in this condition I've seen list for around 25 to 30k.

It was looking good then seen attached log book entry. Seems like it had a hangar collapse, was deregistered due to a total lose, then an annual in 89.
A broker is telling the seller that it should have had an faa inspection and needs to be sold as is.

My question are:
Would it be an safety concern if the plane has been flying since 1989 with no issues (even did some flight training for 2yrs)?

Does it need a faa inspection if it has a registration?

Would the value be like an R title for a car, half the book value?

Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Aaron

 

[Grum.Man]

Edit: I see now that the registration is not current. If it has the repairs documented in the log and all required AD's, inspections, and maintenance are up to date I see no reason why you can't re-register the airplane. The N number might not be available now but otherwise it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[pigpenracing]

I say with damage history it will be worth 20-25% less than a non damage history airplane. Some people care about damage history and some do not. Just remember when you want to sell it down the road you will have to explain it.

 

[pigpenracing]

Edit: I see now that the registration is not current. If it has the repairs documented in the log and all required AD's, inspections, and maintenance are up to date I see no reason why you can't re-register the airplane. The N number might not be available now but otherwise it shouldn't be an issue.

I just pulled it up on FAA's site and it has a current registration.

 

[Grum.Man]

I just pulled it up on FAA's site and it has a current registration.

I see that now, flight aware said it wasn't.

 

[Stewartb]

Damage history isn't very important except on the internet. The plane is what it is. A properly repaired damaged airplane may be far better then an undamaged plane sitting next to it. There's no way to tell until you inspect it.

 

[James331]

So if all the damage was completely repaired, as in you can’t tell, that’s not a issue.

That being said, damage history isn’t really a issue, and value wise it won’t hurt a 206/185/DHC etc, but... this is a dime a dozen 150, on 150s 172s and PA28s I’d be more reluctant to get a damage history plane due to how many are on the market without documented damage (they all have damage BTW, it’s just how it was documented), add to that the demographics for the people who buy those types, they don’t often have the experience to know fully fixed damage isn’t a issue.

So if you’re getting a good discount, the plane is both mechanically fully fixed (get a VERY good prebuy) and the paperwork is all there, sure.

 

[Clip4]

The seller have the 337 Form approving the major repair from the hangar collapse?

 

[Aaron H]

Thanks all for the replys!

To sum up the above replys:
With the plane having a current registration, the deregistration is a non issue.
Make annual condition of sale (annual ran out last month)

I am assuming the plane was repaired correctly since it's been flying since 89 and even did some flight training for the last 2 yrs.

Any idea what it would be worth with what little info was given in first post and damage history?

Would a 150 with stol kit at Max weight, takeoff from a 2000ft grass runway in a Pennsylvania summer?

Thx

 

[Aaron H]

The seller have the 337 Form approving the major repair from the hangar collapse?

They didn't say anything about the 337.
It was mentioned that I should get that if I was going to buy.

Would that need to have been done to get the new registration?

 

[Stewartb]

The repairs should be described on a 337 and that should be in the logs. Reviewing the logs should be done before you get serious about any airplane purchase.

 

[aftCG]

?

Would a 150 with stol kit at Max weight, takeoff from a 2000ft grass runway in a Pennsylvania summer?

Thx

Answer depends on how high you need to be at the end of the runway, but get off the ground? For sure

 

[James331]

Thanks all for the replys!

To sum up the above replys:
With the plane having a current registration, the deregistration is a non issue.
Make annual condition of sale (annual ran out last month)

I am assuming the plane was repaired correctly since it's been flying since 89 and even did some flight training for the last 2 yrs.

Any idea what it would be worth with what little info was given in first post and damage history?

Would a 150 with stol kit at Max weight, takeoff from a 2000ft grass runway in a Pennsylvania summer?

Thx

You’re going to want a APIA of your choice to do a pre buy and annual if it looks good, this should be the most in-depth inspection you ever put the plane through, find a APIA who will not only go over the plane but also the paperwork.

As for the value, you give us nearly nothing to go on, so damage history 150, unknown times, unknown avionics, unknown paint and interior, presuming it passes a prebuy, $6,000 - 18k

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I bought a C140 20 years ago which had been ground looped, fixed it up.
While I was fixing it, one of the previous owners found out about this and managed to somehow get the FAA to record the airplane as "Destroyed" without notifying or discussing with me. I guess he had liability concerns.
It was not a huge deal to reverse that as annoying as it was - but I'm not so sure how that would go today.

 

[Aaron H]

The repairs should be described on a 337 and that should be in the logs. Reviewing the logs should be done before you get serious about any airplane purchase.

It's not in the log book which is why I'm guessing the broker said to disclaim the damage and sell as is.
I'm guessing the faa would need a 337 before they reregister the plane?

 

[James331]

It's not in the log book which is why I'm guessing the broker said to disclaim the damage and sell as is.
I'm guessing the faa would need a 337 before they reregister the plane?

Wouldn’t that be agaist the law?

For sure worth a little small claims action

 

[Aaron H]

As for the value, you give us nearly nothing to go on, so damage history 150, unknown times, unknown avionics, unknown paint and interior, presuming it passes a prebuy, $6,000 - 18k

From first post
"1974 Cessna150 with 800 hrs, nice paint, nice interior, and stol kit"
I should have added about avionics, which are standard except Garmin 296

 

[Aaron H]

Wouldn’t that be agaist the law?

For sure worth a little small claims action

Not sure that's why I'm asking you guys, I'm a lowly 120hr pilot

 

[Clip4]

They didn't say anything about the 337.
It was mentioned that I should get that if I was going to buy.

Would that need to have been done to get the new registration?

When an airplane has a major repair, the mechanic files a Form 337 with the FAA for approval of the repair and the FAA could (read they may or may not) inspect the aircraft after the repair before it is returned to service. That document (approval) remains on file with the FAA. It really the only way you know if the plane was legally repaired. A copy should be with the maint. records. If not you can get a copy of the original from the FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Form/FAA_Form_337_.pdf

 

[flyingron]

The Serial Number on the current N66248 registration doesn't match the one in the "destroyed" paperwork above.

It would be extremely uncommon for the FAA to inspect anything during repairs.

 

[Salty]

When an airplane has a major repair, the mechanic files a Form 337 with the FAA for approval of the repair and the FAA could (read they may or may not) inspect the aircraft after the repair before it is returned to service. That document (approval) remains on file with the FAA. It really the only way you know if the plane was legally repaired. A copy should be with the maint. records. If not you can get it from the FAA.

Not according to my fsdo. Similar situation. Major wing damage done decades ago no 337, but the repairs looked good to the IA doing the annual. He contacted the fsdo and they said it’s only necessary to have logs for the last year. Anything older than that is nice to have. If the repairs are done properly and the airplane is airworthy, sign it off and done.

 

[bnt83]

The Serial Number on the current N66248 registration doesn't match the one in the "destroyed" paperwork above.

It would be extremely uncommon for the FAA to inspect anything during repairs.

N66248? Should be N66428

 

[Stewartb]

FWIW, de-registered is what happens automatically approx 6 months after a plane's registration isn't renewed. Cancelled happens 5 years after expiration. De- registered can be re-registered.

No Holiday Inn last night but I'm sitting in FSDO and I asked.

 

[flyingron]

N66248? Should be N66428

Ooops...that explains the discrepency.

 

[James331]

Not sure that's why I'm asking you guys, I'm a lowly 120hr pilot

If someone random old owner had MY aircraft that they have zero airworthiness or registration or anything else changed, I’d imagine it would be a no no

 

[Clip4]

Not according to my fsdo. Similar situation. Major wing damage done decades ago no 337, but the repairs looked good to the IA doing the annual. He contacted the fsdo and they said it’s only necessary to have logs for the last year. Anything older than that is nice to have. If the repairs are done properly and the airplane is airworthy, sign it off and done.

§ 91.417 Maintenance records.

2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by § 43.9(d) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.

b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

 

[Bell206]

I am assuming the plane was repaired correctly since it's been flying since 89 and even did some flight training for the last 2 yrs.

They didn't say anything about the 337. It was mentioned that I should get that if I was going to buy.

It's not in the log book which is why I'm guessing the broker said to disclaim the damage and sell as is.

Curious. Ask the broker how did the aircraft legally fly for the previous 25+ years with an undocumented (337) major repair? Also, who "mentioned" you should get a 337 before you buy?

 

[idahoflier]

Unless you're going to be spending the majority of your time solo boring holes in the sky I would suggest looking at a C172, Cherokee or any other four place aircraft. I don't see much, if any, advantage to a STOL kit on a C150...

 

[swingwing]

Thanks all for the replys!


Would a 150 with stol kit at Max weight, takeoff from a 2000ft grass runway in a Pennsylvania summer?

Thx

Standard temp at sea level on a hard, flat, well maintained strip, Yes. Start changing the variables and it depends. Where are you in PA? What strip?

 

[mondtster]

Curious. Ask the broker how did the aircraft legally fly for the previous 25+ years with an undocumented (337) major repair?

I'm sure you know this, but I don't think anyone has established that a major repair was even made yet. It might be reasonable to assume one was performed but it is possible that all the damaged parts were simply replaceable with a logbook entry.

I've run across a couple of similar airplanes where complete assemblies were replaced with a one or two line logbook entry buried in 50+ years of logs.

 

[Bell206]

but it is possible that all the damaged parts were simply replaceable with a logbook entry.

Quite true. But what piqued my interest were the OP's comments:

"Seems like it had a hangar collapse, was deregistered due to a total lose"
"broker is telling the seller that it should have had an faa inspection and needs to be sold as is"
"I am assuming the plane was repaired correctly"
"It was mentioned that I should get that if I was going to buy"
"why I'm guessing the broker said to disclaim the damage and sell as is."

And it's has been flying since '89. Makes for an interesting situation if the broker is the one who "mentioned" getting a 337/inspection and recommending "sell as is". More curiosity than anything.

 

[mondtster]

Quite true. But what piqued my interest were the OP's comments:

"Seems like it had a hangar collapse, was deregistered due to a total lose"
"broker is telling the seller that it should have had an faa inspection and needs to be sold as is"
"I am assuming the plane was repaired correctly"
"It was mentioned that I should get that if I was going to buy"
"why I'm guessing the broker said to disclaim the damage and sell as is."

And it's has been flying since '89. Makes for an interesting situation if the broker is the one who "mentioned" getting a 337/inspection and recommending "sell as is". More curiosity than anything.

I wonder if the broker knows what they're talking about and/or suggesting? It could be the same thing that we're seeing in this thread where everyone just assumes that there should be a 337 for the work performed even though it may not be required. In my opinion, the 337 form gets overused. I know that in each of the cases I mentioned previously the logbook entries were quite confusing to the owners, some of whom were trying to figure out if they had "damage history" or not.

Another thought that crossed my mind, perhaps the repair was done at a repair station and didn't trigger the need for a 337?

 

[Aaron H]

Curious. Ask the broker how did the aircraft legally fly for the previous 25+ years with an undocumented (337) major repair? Also, who "mentioned" you should get a 337 before you buy?

It was mentioned by another member when buying a plane to get an annual not prebuy and a 337s.

 

[Aaron H]

Quite true. But what piqued my interest were the OP's comments:

"Seems like it had a hangar collapse, was deregistered due to a total lose"
"broker is telling the seller that it should have had an faa inspection and needs to be sold as is"
"I am assuming the plane was repaired correctly"
"It was mentioned that I should get that if I was going to buy"
"why I'm guessing the broker said to disclaim the damage and sell as is."

And it's has been flying since '89. Makes for an interesting situation if the broker is the one who "mentioned" getting a 337/inspection and recommending "sell as is". More curiosity than anything.

Haha, yes quite vag.
My guess is that the 337 was done and didn't make it into the log book that's how they received a new registration. The broker is unknowingly helping the buyer out by telling the owner that it needs an faa inspection efectivily reducing the price.

But they are all guesses

 

[Aaron H]

Standard temp at sea level on a hard, flat, well maintained strip, Yes. Start changing the variables and it depends. Where are you in PA? What strip?

Benton, pa40
2200 x 150,
35 ft. trees, 26 ft. from runway

 

[Dav8or]

For about $90 or so there are services that will get all known papers on the plane that is filed with the FAA including all 337s that have been filed. Also all title transfers and accident reports. Could be a good read.

 

[mondtster]

Haha, yes quite vag.
My guess is that the 337 was done and didn't make it into the log book that's how they received a new registration. The broker is unknowingly helping the buyer out by telling the owner that it needs an faa inspection efectivily reducing the price.

But they are all guesses

Huh?

A 337 really has little to do with aircraft registration. The 337 is simply a form to document major repairs or alterations and one copy should be in the aircraft documents and another copy should have been sent to Oklahoma City. If you request the records for the plane from the FAA there should be a copy of the 337 if one was filed.

As I've alluded to, a 337 may not have been necessary and these people may be leading you astray. If you're serious about the plane it would be in your best interest to hire a good IA to review the records and make sure everything is present that needs to be. Choose the IA wisely, many aren't good at paperwork or knowing what should be there.

 

[mondtster]

For about $90 or so there are services that will get all known papers on the plane that is filed with the FAA including all 337s that have been filed. Also all title transfers and accident reports. Could be a good read.

Or you could spend $10 for the FAA CD and get the same thing. You'll wait longer for the CD though.

 

[Aaron H]

Curious. Ask the broker how did the aircraft legally fly for the previous 25+ years with an undocumented (337) major repair? Also, who "mentioned" you should get a 337 before you buy?

I haven't ask the broker that, because if I do, I'm affraid he might look into it more and realize that it's just another plane with some damage history (which is what I'm trying to figure out and hoping it is)

The 337 was another member not the broker

 

[Clip4]

Huh?

A 337 really has little to do with aircraft registration. The 337 is simply a form to document major repairs or alterations and one copy should be in the aircraft documents and another copy should have been sent to Oklahoma City. If you request the records for the plane from the FAA there should be a copy of the 337 if one was filed.

As I've alluded to, a 337 may not have been necessary and these people may be leading you astray. If you're serious about the plane it would be in your best interest to hire a good IA to review the records and make sure everything is present that needs to be. Choose the IA wisely, many aren't good at paperwork or knowing what should be there.

I agree that a 337 may not have been required, but the chances of an aircraft having a hangar collapsed on it and the insurance company totaling the plane but not requiring a 337 for repairs is not likely.