Bonehead Jump Pilot or Situation Normal?

[Fearless Tower]

Had an interesting event today on my last leg from El Paso to San Diego. I was IFR on V94 which happens to go directly over the Eloy airport in AZ. As I am approaching Eloy, I am hearing the jump planes advising Albuquerque Center of their status. Center tells the jump plane that he has a Baron (me) at 10k and I will overfly the airport in 3 min. He informs him of this at least a couple times. He gives the traffic call to both me and the jump plane and again tells the jump plane I will be over the field shortly. Mr jump pilot then states 'well, that's going to be a problem because we are dropping now. I can see the meat bombs falling out of the plane in front of me, so I quickly bank right and inform the controller I have them in sight and am deviating (about 40 degrees right).

See and avoid....check in that block.

About 15 min later I get handed off and the controller apologizes for the situation. I reply, I wasn't his fault....he TOLD the jump plane I was there. Now mr Jump pilot has already landed and now back in the air with his next load and he snaps "if you didn't want me to drop, you should have told me" and he commences to arguing with the controller.

Is this situation normal for jump zones? I can't say I've had any issues before flying near drop zones, but this was the first time I was on an airway overflying an active drop.

 

[frfly172]

Jump pilots don't make money if they don't fly. They believe they have priority at all times.at Suffolk Virginia they call over the radio that they are about to drop,and to stay clear of the airport for 15 minutes.

 

[James331]

Often ATC will tell the jump ship to hold the jumpers if they have traffic that will conflict, maybe the controller wasn't in jump pilot mode and didn't think to say that.

Are you sure you were that close to the jumpers that you could actually see them in free fall?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Are you sure you were that close to the jumpers that you could actually see them in free fall?

Yes. I could see them leaving the airplane. I quickly lost sight after they initially jumped, so I had no idea how close I would get if o didn't turn. Jump plane was around 3-4k above my altitude when he dropped.

 

[comanchepilot]

you're lucky you saw them - like you I tend to not want to play hamburger grinder if I can avoid it.

I was on an assigned heading from SoCal VFR Thu am - and in front of me from below and left materializes a jump plane from Perris. Its climbing slowly, and crosses directly in front of me and then turns back the other way coming back across my path - 1/2 mile or so - I immediately make a turn - then report the 'event' to ATC because I needed to violate my assigned heading -

ATC got a little testy with me - but we would have swapped paint if one of us did not move - I told him so and he then asked the jump plane if he was still left turns and the guy came back and said ' nope, right turns for an early jumper' and ATC then got on his arse about changing his normal climb without telling him = and the jump pilot said "I'm VFR whats it matter."

oh well - when I'm VFR or IFR to MYF/SEE/CRQ you're in the Elsinore and Perris jump zones and threading the needle on weekends. . .

 

[flyingron]

I pass in the close vicinity of perhaps six jump zones on my regular commute. Most of them are well integrated with the airspace and ATC. We've got one that operates legally, unsafely, and at odds with both PCT and the neighboring airports. I've heard them miss their one minute calls and watch the meatbombs fall 45 seconds before they even told ATC that they were dropping. It only takes one operator like yours or the bozos north of CJR to give all of skydiving a massive black eye.

 

[docmirror]

I was on an assigned heading from SoCal VFR Thu am - and in front of me from below and left materializes a jump plane from Perris. Its climbing slowly, and crosses directly in front of me and then turns back the other way coming back across my path - 1/2 mile or so - I immediately make a turn - then report the 'event' to ATC because I needed to violate my assigned heading -

ATC got a little testy with me - but we would have swapped paint if one of us did not move - I told him so and he then asked the jump plane if he was still left turns and the guy came back and said ' nope, right turns for an early jumper' and ATC then got on his arse about changing his normal climb without telling him = and the jump pilot said "I'm VFR whats it matter."

oh well - when I'm VFR or IFR to MYF/SEE/CRQ you're in the Elsinore and Perris jump zones and threading the needle on weekends. . .

Were there any repercussions when the jump plane advised ATC that he was VFR?

Were there repercussions when you advised ATC that you were altering course for visual separation(as req, even on an IFR plan)?

Trust me, as a banner and glider tow out of Sandy Eggo I've gone though my share of encounters. My worst one was climbing with a glider on the wire NE of Brown field when an IFR Navajo decided that I was 'in the way' of his route. Tried to have me violated. SoCal wasn't having it and told him to watch outside better.

 

[BillTIZ]

Local LAS TRACON will advise jumpers to hold when they have conflicting traffic.
When LAS is landing Rwy 1, TRACON has been known to lower the jump altitude below the inbound traffic. The jumpers don't like that, but their zone is right in line with a 25nm final.

Local TRACON also has an LOA with the jumpers, they will climb on certain routes, squawk at set code, make certain calls to ATC. To deviate from the route requires a call, even VFR.

Yes, most jump operations think they own the sky and the airport. But thankfully we have a good crew at our airport. Their zone is not currently on airport due to parralle runways with left and right traffic. We also have gliders at the airport and you can't tell a glider to remain clear of an airport. If the glider is out of altitude, he's going to land.

 

[Pilawt]

But thankfully we have a good crew at our airport. Their zone is not currently on airport due to parralle runways with left and right traffic. We also have gliders at the airport and you can't tell a glider to remain clear of an airport. If the glider is out of altitude, he's going to land.

I stop for fuel at your airport often on my way to Phoenix. Yes, the jump people there are always courteous and clearly announce their activity on the radio.

It helps that you have a clearly-visible jump zone (the lakebed) and the highway to help visitors stay clear.

 

[HighFlyingA380]

Definitely sounds like he was being a jerk...

The folks at Skydive Chicago (8N2) have always been pleasant to operate around. It pretty much always works out where I'll deviate north a tad and they south, and we're both happy. I've had numerous occasions where they tell ATC that they're delaying the drop until we get mutual visual contact.

Now the guy down at Taylorville, IL (TAZ) is a bit of a different story... Often hear mumbles from him when ATC informs him of our converging traffic. "Yeah, well, I'm staying here, they can go around me."

 

[Henning]

Had an interesting event today on my last leg from El Paso to San Diego. I was IFR on V94 which happens to go directly over the Eloy airport in AZ. As I am approaching Eloy, I am hearing the jump planes advising Albuquerque Center of their status. Center tells the jump plane that he has a Baron (me) at 10k and I will overfly the airport in 3 min. He informs him of this at least a couple times. He gives the traffic call to both me and the jump plane and again tells the jump plane I will be over the field shortly. Mr jump pilot then states 'well, that's going to be a problem because we are dropping now. I can see the meat bombs falling out of the plane in front of me, so I quickly bank right and inform the controller I have them in sight and am deviating (about 40 degrees right).

See and avoid....check in that block.

About 15 min later I get handed off and the controller apologizes for the situation. I reply, I wasn't his fault....he TOLD the jump plane I was there. Now mr Jump pilot has already landed and now back in the air with his next load and he snaps "if you didn't want me to drop, you should have told me" and he commences to arguing with the controller.

Is this situation normal for jump zones? I can't say I've had any issues before flying near drop zones, but this was the first time I was on an airway overflying an active drop.

However, no, I'm not surprised. The title though is a choice that isn't required, they are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, that was a bonehead jump pilot.

Yes, people being that level of stupid is situation normal.

Is that situation normal for a DZ? Not in my experience, myself and everyone I know who has flown a jump plane would have circled until they saw you pass, then popped the door.

 

[comanchepilot]

Were there any repercussions when the jump plane advised ATC that he was VFR?

Were there repercussions when you advised ATC that you were altering course for visual separation(as req, even on an IFR plan)?

Trust me, as a banner and glider tow out of Sandy Eggo I've gone though my share of encounters. My worst one was climbing with a glider on the wire NE of Brown field when an IFR Navajo decided that I was 'in the way' of his route. Tried to have me violated. SoCal wasn't having it and told him to watch outside better.

VFR is see and avoid - should he have said something? Yep.

The controller can't tell in that real time that he switched over his direction of turn -

I did not complain - I just was looking out and made sure we did not swap paint - its what you're supposed to do. He could not see me - and there was no traffic callout from ATC - to either of us. He was inside a mile climbing though my altitude - I'm sure the controller figured out that there would be no conflict if he kept on his present turn - but when he turned back. ..

No requests to call - no exchange of numbers - just another day in So Cal -

Tow and jump pilots are doing a job and most of the time they're pretty predictable - more so that some of the ab initio pilots in the airspace.

 

[docmirror]

VFR is see and avoid - should he have said something? Yep.

The controller can't tell in that real time that he switched over his direction of turn -

I did not complain - I just was looking out and made sure we did not swap paint - its what you're supposed to do. He could not see me - and there was no traffic callout from ATC - to either of us. He was inside a mile climbing though my altitude - I'm sure the controller figured out that there would be no conflict if he kept on his present turn - but when he turned back. ..

No requests to call - no exchange of numbers - just another day in So Cal -

Tow and jump pilots are doing a job and most of the time they're pretty predictable - more so that some of the ab initio pilots in the airspace.

So no repercussions either way I guess.

I never took jumpers so not sure about that, but when I had a glider on, I would often get instructions from them. Might look funny from the outside looking for lift. Jumpers have their own protocol.

 

[Henning]

So no repercussions either way I guess.

I never took jumpers so not sure about that, but when I had a glider on, I would often get instructions from them. Might look funny from the outside looking for lift. Jumpers have their own protocol.

No direct repercussions anyway. He was right, he was VFR. However, there may be future repercussions when he could use some cooperation.

 

[BillTIZ]

I stop for fuel at your airport often on my way to Phoenix. Yes, the jump people there are always courteous and clearly announce their activity on the radio.

It helps that you have a clearly-visible jump zone (the lakebed) and the highway to help visitors stay clear.

The lake bed is not the jump zone. The zone is between Jean and Roach Dry Lake. 4nm south, east side of I-15 is a bladed square. It is even with the end of the paved road that parralles the interstate south of Jean. Roach Dry Lake starts about 5nm south of the airport.

 

[Pilawt]

The lake bed is not the jump zone. The zone is between Jean and Roach Dry Lake. 4nm south, east side of I-15 is a bladed square. It is even with the end of the paved road that parralles the interstate south of Jean. Roach Dry Lake starts about 5nm south of the airport.

It's about in the area where I've marked the 'X' on this map?

 

[Tom-D]

It isn't the pilots I worry about, we can ask where they are, it's the meat bombs. You never know where they are

 

[Geico266]

I was in a similar situation a few months ago. The hot headed (non-pilot) jump master on the ground started yelling that his jumpers "Have the right away as soon as they leave the plane.". Hard to argue with that logic.

 

[James331]

It isn't the pilots I worry about, we can ask where they are, it's the meat bombs. You never know where they are

Just stay out of the NOTAMed jump area, unless you know their procedures, usually about 3nm or so around the landing spot or airport.

 

[Geico266]

Just stay out of the NOTAMed jump area, unless you know their procedures, usually about 3nm or so around the landing spot or airport.

Not easy when it is my home airport. I have very right to use the airport any time I want. It is up to every pilot to operate in a safe manner. Dumping meat bombs out over the top of another plane without announcement is not very safe.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75891

 

[flyingron]

Just stay out of the NOTAMed jump area, unless you know their procedures, usually about 3nm or so around the landing spot or airport.

Can't do it practially in most busy airspace, nobody gets 3NM of exclusive use around here. The IAF/IF for instrument approach for my field is right over the top of the jumpzone. And yes, they are jumping at times when I need the approach. Many of these jumpzones are at airports that have substantial non-jump traffic. Fortunately, most of these jumpzones know the rules and know how to safely interact with the rest of the aviation community.

 

[Velocity173]

I'd say at the very least the PIC was in violation of FAR part 105.5. If he doesn't have the common sense to realize that you'll be overhead in 3 mins and to hold his jumpers, yes, he's a bonehead.

 

[James331]

Can't do it practially in most busy airspace, nobody gets 3NM of exclusive use around here. The IAF/IF for instrument approach for my field is right over the top of the jumpzone. And yes, they are jumping at times when I need the approach. Many of these jumpzones are at airports that have substantial non-jump traffic. Fortunately, most of these jumpzones know the rules and know how to safely interact with the rest of the aviation community.

I'm confused, how are conditions OK for jumping when you need the instrument approach?

 

[Silvaire]

Maybe a little bit of boneheadedness on both sides.

Above all we need to cooperate and share the airspace and be courteous with each other. Being IFR in VFR conditions means you ought to abide by and accommodate those rules concurrently because there is going to be VFR traffic and you don't have exclusivity. In this case perhaps a slight voluntary alteration of your course would have been the best action. I mean you ended up doing that anyway.

There is an active jump zone at my airport and one thing I do know about meat bombs is that once they leave the aircraft they don't go cruising around, they pretty much drop straight down and it's fairly easy to allow them that narrow shaft of activity without a lot of heartache or fuss.

This is not to say that there are no bonehead jumpers or jump pilots, there certainly are, as there are boneheads in just about any group of folks you care to single out, but there is no winning an argument with a bonehead so it's best to just let it pass and avoid getting upset to the point where you're still thinking about a minor incident that happened a week ago.

We also have gliders at my airport and they have a bad habit of blocking multiple runway turn-offs and taxiways but despite the minor inconvenience for me I'm happy to share with them. We all need to get along, it's a pretty small community we abide in as aviation enthusiasts and what we have here in the U.S. is something special. We should all feel at least a little bit blessed.

 

[Henning]

I'm confused, how are conditions OK for jumping when you need the instrument approach?

That is a question that if answered would throw more than one jump pilot under a bus. Examples exist on YouTube. Jumping through broken layers isn't particularly kosher.


Personally I haven't encountered any conflicts operating either plane. There's always going to be a contingent of inconsiderate or just plain stupid people in any endeavor. This was an example of the latter.

 

[Henning]

Maybe a little bit of boneheadedness on both sides.

Above all we need to cooperate and share the airspace and be courteous with each other. Being IFR in VFR conditions means you ought to abide by and accommodate those rules concurrently because there is going to be VFR traffic and you don't have exclusivity. In this case perhaps a slight voluntary alteration of your course would have been the best action. I mean you ended up doing that anyway.

There is an active jump zone at my airport and one thing I do know about meat bombs is that once they leave the aircraft they don't go cruising around, they pretty much drop straight down and it's fairly easy to allow them that narrow shaft of activity without a lot of heartache or fuss.

This is not to say that there are no bonehead jumpers or jump pilots, there certainly are, as there are boneheads in just about any group of folks you care to single out, but there is no winning an argument with a bonehead so it's best to just let it pass and avoid getting upset to the point where you're still thinking about a minor incident that happened a week ago.

We also have gliders at my airport and they have a bad habit of blocking multiple runway turn-offs and taxiways but despite the minor inconvenience for me I'm happy to share with them. We all need to get along, it's a pretty small community we abide in as aviation enthusiasts and what we have here in the U.S. is something special. We should all feel at least a little bit blessed.

Yep, but it's my job as jump pilot to ascertain that that shaft is and will remain clear for the duration of at least the free fall. If ATC is calling me telling me I have a Baron close in to cross through that shaft, there should be no question as to my actions, I hold the door until the traffic is clear. This should really be obvious to anyone who is working as a jump pilot, or still breathing for that matter, the logic is pretty basic.

 

[BigBadLou]

A bird strike is a bad event (I fear it every time I fly) but a meat bomb strike would be a disaster (for all parties).

Any recent human strikes? I don't recall one in the past year or two.

 

[Henning]

I had heard a story I could never confirm about a skydiver busting through a wing. If that would happen that would have to be lottery odds.

 

[James331]

That is a question that if answered would throw more than one jump pilot under a bus. Examples exist on YouTube. Jumping through broken layers isn't particularly kosher.


Personally I haven't encountered any conflicts operating either plane. There's always going to be a contingent of inconsiderate or just plain stupid people in any endeavor. This was an example of the latter.

I've known jump pilots to put a jumper through a semi transparent layer at higher altitudes, or skirt a cloud, but dropping jumpers when conditions dictate the NEED to shoot a IAP, as someone who flew jumpers full time for a few years, I'm 100% OK with hanging anyone dropping jumpers in IFR field conditions out to dry.

As a ex jump pilot and a jumper I've never seen this before and highly doubt it would be a significant number of pilots


Heck ever seen the panel in most jump planes, I worked a high end drop zone and even our van didnt even have a NAV head.

 

[flyingron]

I'm confused, how are conditions OK for jumping when you need the instrument approach?

Less than visual conditions at CJR, enough of a hole at OMH to allow them to fall through.

They'll typically jump right up until the weather closes in on them.

 

[flyingron]

I had heard a story I could never confirm about a skydiver busting through a wing. If that would happen that would have to be lottery odds.

Never heard that. The only collision that I know of (other than jumpers hitting the jumpplanes) was up in Massachusetts in 1993 when a jumper hit a Cherokee.
Knocked the tail off (rather than punching a hole in the wing). Killed the three aboard. Parachutist was seriously injured.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...1d5f-4caa-a609-f4e54795eac8&pgno=1&pgsize=100

 

[James331]

Less than visual conditions at CJR, enough of a hole at OMH to allow them to fall through.

They'll typically jump right up until the weather closes in on them.

Sounds like you are ether very conservative with VFR ops, or that is one crap rinky dink DZ.

 

[Henning]

I've known jump pilots to put a jumper through a semi transparent layer at higher altitudes, or skirt a cloud, but dropping jumpers when conditions dictate the NEED to shoot a IAP, as someone who flew jumpers full time for a few years, I'm 100% OK with hanging anyone dropping jumpers in IFR field conditions out to dry.

As a ex jump pilot and a jumper I've never seen this before and highly doubt it would be a significant number of pilots


Heck ever seen the panel in most jump planes, I worked a high end drop zone and even our van didnt even have a NAV head.

I don't think it's a significant number either. First time I saw it on You Tube was kinda astounded some pilot would be that stupid. As for thin whispy things you can see through, meh, it's legal to fly through it. When the go pro goes solid white for a 3 count though, nope...

 

[Henning]

Never heard that. The only collision that I know of (other than jumpers hitting the jumpplanes) was up in Massachusetts in 1993 when a jumper hit a Cherokee.
Knocked the tail off (rather than punching a hole in the wing). Killed the three aboard. Parachutist was seriously injured.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.a...1d5f-4caa-a609-f4e54795eac8&pgno=1&pgsize=100

Probably a different version of the only event ever that got screwed up which is why I couldn't confirm it as being a wing (I doubted it even possible to punch through the wing). It's really long odds in a low volume sport. Probably a 500 year event type odds.

 

[Henning]

For the jumpers. Say you are in free fall in a nice stable arch, all of a sudden you notice there is a plane you're going to hit in 2 seconds, what do you do?

 

[Silvaire]

...The IAF/IF for instrument approach for my field is right over the top of the jumpzone. And yes, they are jumping at times when I need the approach...

It seems that is a case of the DZ being in the wrong place. There seems to me no justifiable reason for it to be located in a spot that presents such a conflict. A drop zone doesn't take that much space, certainly not a 3 mile radius, that's ridiculous.

 

[Silvaire]

For the jumpers. Say you are in free fall in a nice stable arch, all of a sudden you notice there is a plane you're going to hit in 2 seconds, what do you do?

Just enough time to mutter an expletive I guess.

 

[jsstevens]

There was one at Lakeland South (X49?) last year where a C-170 taking off hit the shroud lines of a jumper and trashed the airplane.

John

 

[James331]

It seems that is a case of the DZ being in the wrong place. There seems to me no justifiable reason for it to be located in a spot that presents such a conflict. A drop zone doesn't take that much space, certainly not a 3 mile radius, that's ridiculous.

Do a high pull with a little wind, see how far person can track from 17.9k, heck see how far a wingsuit can go, it's in the 2.5:1 range.

I was thinking 3 mile diameter.

 

[Brad Z]

Is this situation normal for jump zones? I can't say I've had any issues before flying near drop zones, but this was the first time I was on an airway overflying an active drop.

I've flown IFR in the vicinity of many drop zones, and each time ATC vectors me around active jump areas. It sounds like that's what ATC should have done for you, since they don't know the exact moment the jumpers are released.