Bonehead Jump Pilot or Situation Normal?

[Henning]

I've flown IFR in the vicinity of many drop zones, and each time ATC vectors me around active jump areas. It sounds like that's what ATC should have done for you, since they don't know the exact moment the jumpers are released.

That's what happened, it's just the jump pilot didn't follow the path he normally does and the controller assumed he would again.

 

[flyingron]

Sounds like you are ether very conservative with VFR ops, or that is one crap rinky dink DZ.

Nope, just changing conditions. The airports are 18 miles apart. The skydivers will keep going up as long as there's enough gaps in the sky coverage to be legal.

 

[flyingron]

It seems that is a case of the DZ being in the wrong place. There seems to me no justifiable reason for it to be located in a spot that presents such a conflict. A drop zone doesn't take that much space, certainly not a 3 mile radius, that's ridiculous.

Well it's there because that's where the airport is. I guess nobody figured that the approach was going to be an issue. In fact, as far as I know it hasn't. Skydive Orange is very good with their procedures and so is Potomac Approach which covers both airports. These are not the guys who cause problems.

 

[JHW]

The folks at Skydive Chicago (8N2) have always been pleasant to operate around.

It's good to know they are pleasant to be around. Most funeral directors are pleasant when you get to know them. It's much the same thing with that place.

 

[Silvaire]

Well it's there because that's where the airport is.

As it is at my airport but it's off on the opposite side of the pattern. Putting it right in the approach lane of the runway seems a bit absurd if you ask me but depending on the layout I suppose general traffic at an airport lays claim to most, if not all of the territory. Still, it would seem that if the only possible location for a drop zone is is right on the final approach line it might be better to just find a different airport for skydiving.

 

[JCranford]

For the jumpers. Say you are in free fall in a nice stable arch, all of a sudden you notice there is a plane you're going to hit in 2 seconds, what do you do?

Deploy immediately and hope for the best. Barely time to do that. Definitely no time to track and clear.

Also, I should say, it was also the jumper's responsibility to 'see and avoid'. Just because the jump plane door is open and the green light is on, doesn't mean it is a directive to jump (despite what 'some' jump pilots think...). Always clear the airspace below before exiting the plane.

 

[Henning]

It's good to know they are pleasant to be around. Most funeral directors are pleasant when you get to know them. It's much the same thing with that place.

That strangely reads to me that Skydive Chicago kills a lot of people. Was that the intent?

 

[Henning]

Deploy immediately and hope for the best. Barely time to do that. Definitely no time to track and clear.

Also, I should say, it was also the jumper's responsibility to 'see and avoid'. Just because the jump plane door is open and the green light is on, doesn't mean it is a directive to jump (despite what 'some' jump pilots think...). Always clear the airspace below before exiting the plane.

I was thinking streamline and accelerate would make the biggest difference. It be fun to run a set of experiments to see which works better.

 

[JCranford]

I was thinking streamline and accelerate would make the biggest difference. It be fun to run a set of experiments to see which works better.

I get to fly the plane during the experiments!

 

[ferrari-tech]

- and there was no traffic callout from ATC - to either of us. .

That's unusual down there...every time I have flown through that corridor ATC has been very informative of the jump planes activity, But like you said earlier Perris-Elsinore on the weekends is very much like threading a needle..

 

[James331]

That's unusual down there...every time I have flown through that corridor ATC has been very informative of the jump planes activity, But like you said earlier Perris-Elsinore on the weekends is very much like threading a needle..

Also both very tightly run, high volume, turbine DZs

 

[Brad Z]

That's what happened, it's just the jump pilot didn't follow the path he normally does and the controller assumed he would again.

Where did it say he was vectored off the airway and around the dropzone?

 

[Henning]

Where did it say he was vectored off the airway and around the dropzone?

It didn't. The controller had assumed he would be good on course due to prior tracks of the jump plane. It's just that the jump pilot didn't do what he had been.

 

[Velocity173]

If Fearless was in class E it's not up to the controller to vector him around the jump activity anyway. If a nonparticipating aircraft wants to go around jump activity it's by pilot request in a class E.

So, once again it goes back to the jump pilot and FAR part 105.5. He was informed by ATC that the Baron would be over the field in three minutes. The jump pilot should have held his jumpers until he had a clear DZ. It's not the controller's job to make decisions for the jump pilot and tell him to hold his load.

 

[BillTIZ]

It's about in the area where I've marked the 'X' on this map?

Pretty close, but closer to I-15 and not in the brush. I'll post a picture from a different computer.

 

[apr911]

Im a skydiver and a pilot.

I can tell you from the skydiver's perspective we dont want to end up a bug on your windshield (or meat grinder) any more than you want us to. We take great care to try and spot for planes, some of us are better at it then others (usually those with lots of experience or those who are pilots themselves).

Unfortunately, at most drop zones, the best people for spotting usually arent the people in the door (since they have students or tandems) and at larger drop zones (i.e. Eloy, Perris, Elsinore, etc), especially in higher traffic areas, we rely heavily on the pilot for traffic avoidance. We have a little light that is red/yellow/green and when its green we go. We generally have 24+ people to get out the door of a fully loaded otter and even though the pilot slows down at altitude, if we're not getting out the door when the pilot signals, not all of us are making it back to the field.

On top of that, areas like Elsinore or Perris have too many aircraft in the area on a nice day for us to spot and wait for each plane to clear the area (i.e. never because as soon as one clears, there is another one entering) so we rely on the communications the pilot is having with ATC since ATC will advise if there is a conflict (or a potential conflict due to a VFR pilot not talking to ATC) with traffic and jumpers should hold.

Dropzones in less populated areas tend to put the onus more on the skydiver than the pilot because radar coverage/flight following/traffic advisories coming from ATC aren't the the best. My dropzone in Texas flew out of their own filed about 15 miles from a Class D airport, our information was provided on the ATIS for the airport and our pilot coordinated with Tower for jump run as best they could but there were still plenty of planes that would go buzzing through the airspace directly over the field completely unawares even as we got the green light.

It sounds like in this case the ATC didnt tell the jump pilot to hold or the jump pilot just wasnt paying attention or there was some other miscommunication between you/ATC/jump pilot (not saying its your fault, just that the jump pilot may have thought/expected ATC to route you around and didnt). I doubt this last option is the case as Eloy doesnt have this reputation but its also possible he chose to ignore them because for drop zones, every minute the plane is running without people falling out of it is costing them money (they dont fly for fun or to get places like we or the airlines do, they fly purely to get people to altitude, thats why the jump planes climb at a very high rate and enter a very steep dive following the last man out)

As a pilot I tend to try and give drop zones a bit of a wide berth for exactly this reason. Depending on the winds aloft, jump run generally runs from the 1-2 miles on the upwind side of the field to 1 mile past the field, not that it cant be longer than that but generally anyone getting out more than 2 miles upwind (unless its REALLY windy) or a mile or more down wind isnt making it back and skydivers and DZ's dont like that (they have to dispatch someone to go find them, pick them up, make sure their safe, etc and in sparsely populated areas that can be really tough to do). So keeping from buzzing directly over the field and keeping yourself a few miles (4-5 is usually good) away from the airport is the safest bet when you can. Im only VFR so its less of an issue but Ive asked ATC to allow me to deviate around around an active drop zones at every possible opportunity. Not only for the avoidance aspects but so that the skydivers can enjoy their time in the sky too.

If you do find yourself over an active drop zone the winds aloft are important to remember since the jump run will generally be in the direction of the winds.

 

[apr911]

Also, I dont know about the last actual strike but this was posted last month out of Thailand... About the closest thing Ive seen to someone becoming a meat patty I hope any of us ever get/have to see.

At one point the bridle of the jumper's pilot chute actually wraps around the wing and the wash from the airplane going by sends the jumper for a tumble.

Its is a perfect illustration though of just how quickly the jump pilots are encouraged to get the plane back on the ground. The plane is in a near vertical dive.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rs-have-near-miss-with-planes-propellers.html

 

[Silvaire]

Im a skydiver and a pilot.

...So keeping from buzzing directly over the field and keeping yourself a few miles (4-5 is usually good) away from the airport is the safest bet when you can....

You can't be serious about that. If you guys need a 5 mile no-fly zone then drop away from the airport and ride a van back. The jump plane might not be making money when people aren't jumping out of it but it's not my responsibility nor in my interest to alter my own activities to accommodate that. As I said in my first post we need to share the space, not hog it.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I don't think it's a significant number either. First time I saw it on You Tube was kinda astounded some pilot would be that stupid. As for thin whispy things you can see through, meh, it's legal to fly through it. When the go pro goes solid white for a 3 count though, nope...

Yet, they still get uploaded. This one demonstrates how to treat a new customer right.

Donnie's first skydive was right through a hail cloud. Notice the instructor taking cover behind his shoulder. He landed two miles off course in a cow pasture. "I got f****n bead blasted!" Punta Gorda, Florida

 

[BillTIZ]

It's about in the area where I've marked the 'X' on this map?

Where the red circle is.

 

[apr911]

You can't be serious about that. If you guys need a 5 mile no-fly zone then drop away from the airport and ride a van back. The jump plane might not be making money when people aren't jumping out of it but it's not my responsibility nor in my interest to alter my own activities to accommodate that. As I said in my first post we need to share the space, not hog it.

I didnt say it was a 5 mile no-fly zone, I said it was a 4-5-mile zone I try and avoid. If your origin and destination were exactly opposite of the airport, I would personally go through it in that situation however, even so to fly around vs through it's a difference of 15.7 miles vs 10 miles which even in a slow trainer adds only 3-4 minutes travel time (which is about the same amount of time you would lose in 2 standard rate 360's if you found yourself having to circle due to jump run already being in progress).

That being said, still assuming your origin and destination are on exact opposite sides of the airport, for each additional mile beyond the area your orgin/destinations are, your total distance to go around continually decreases such that eventually, you travel nearly the same distance to go around as to go through. If your origin and destination are both 10 miles from the DZ (20 miles between A and B ), your total distance to route around the DZ giving them 5 miles of space is 21 miles vs 20 miles to go through. Ill take the extra <30seconds it takes to go around in that situation vs potentially being held up due to jump run or finding my prop turned into a meat grinder.


I also use the 4-5 miles because it works well as both a radius and a diameter.

Think of it this way... There is an 4-5 mile outer ring (1 mile radius) and then a 2-2.5 mile inner ring (4-5 mile diameter).

If I have to go closer to the airport than the 4-5 mile radius ring then I know to be on the look out for the jump plane and be aware jumpers may be in the area. If I have to go closer still to the airport and go inside the 2-2.5 mile inner ring (4-5 mile diameter), I know I am within the DZ column and I better be really aware of where the jump plane is, what direction winds aloft and jump run is and make sure Im not flying up/down/through jump run.

I personally consider the 2-2.5 mile "inner" ring around the DZ a "no-fly" zone unless Im going into that airport. Inside that area you're definitely in the jump column. I dont know the last time I saw a jump run begin or end further than 2-2.5 miles though so flying just outside that is OK but you're going to hold up jump run since the jumpers and pilot aren't likely to risk jumping with you so close, so in the interest of sharing the sky, Im willing to add a minute or 2 to my travel time. If you give the DZ a 4-5 mile radius distance, you are definitely clear of the jump run and the DZ can feel free to drop whenever. As you said, its about sharing the air and since the jumpers dont know what you are doing or where you are going, if you start getting in closer than 4-5 miles and they spot you, they may hold our jump run until you've cleared the area for fear that you might turn and close that 2 mile distance between you and them after they've left the plane. The average freefall lasts about 60 seconds from 13,500 to 3,500 and a while a trainer would really have to be moving to get in close, 2 miles in many planes means you could find yourself in the jump column very quickly.

Its for that reason that I try give dropzones so much distance and when I cant, I treat dropzones like Class D (even though many lack a tower and are in fact Class E/G), a 4-5 miles (statute or nautical) radius covers the same amount of area as all but the largest of Class D's and I dont go buzzing through that area unless Im talking to someone.

I never took jumpers so not sure about that, but when I had a glider on, I would often get instructions from them. Might look funny from the outside looking for lift. Jumpers have their own protocol.

Jump planes and tow planes are different beasts. With a tow plane (whether a glider or banner) you're going to get more instruction on where to fly and how because they need to provide traffic avoidance/advisories for both you, your towed object and the cable connecting you. A jump plane is free to climb/travel more freely because they only need to provide advisories and avoidance during jump run. Even in an Otter with a really good jump pilot on a really cold/low density altitude type day it generally takes the plane 15-20 minutes to reach altitude and setup for jump run.



My distance of 4-5 miles is probably a bit excessive but I prefer giving the wide berth so the skydivers dont have to hold for me. It looks like the FAA considers a 1.5 NM radius around the airport sufficient based on the redesigned PHL airspace. When they redesigned it last year, they kept the airspace above Cross Keys (17N) out of the Bravo by making a little cut out for the airport Cross Keys (17N). The cutout provides 1.5 NM of space for the airport on North, West and South sides of the airport. I dont know if Cross Keys ever enters the bravo for jump run or to setup for jump run... They didnt used to but then prior to last year's redesign, the Bravo over PHL was not a full circle and it ended in NJ in a diagonal line that kept 17N, 19N, VAY, N14 and N73 from having Bravo airspace above them (an artifact of which can be seen in the boundary on the West side of 17N).

Of course the Bravo redesign made many other changes too, such as lowered altitudes, additional shelfs and rings and other really unpopular changes. Thankfully the final draft was quite different from the original proposal but there are still changes there that Im sure are less than popular.

 

[Henning]

If Fearless was in class E it's not up to the controller to vector him around the jump activity anyway. If a nonparticipating aircraft wants to go around jump activity it's by pilot request in a class E.

So, once again it goes back to the jump pilot and FAR part 105.5. He was informed by ATC that the Baron would be over the field in three minutes. The jump pilot should have held his jumpers until he had a clear DZ. It's not the controller's job to make decisions for the jump pilot and tell him to hold his load.

What about when the pilot is IFR on a clearance? The controller holds no responsibility for separation?

 

[apr911]

What about when the pilot is IFR on a clearance? The controller holds no responsibility for separation?

Personally, I dont think they should do IFR clearance over active dropzones unless the clearance is above the ceiling or typical jump run (just because there are overcast clouds at 10,000 doesnt mean a DZ will stop operating, they'll drop their jump altitude to 9,500 to maintain VFR and continue to conduct business, they will also quite commonly thread through the hole in the sky if its large enough). As you said, on IFR, the controller holds much of the responsibility for separation (you as PIC hold the ultimate authority and responsibility but still).

While the typical jump lasts just over 60 seconds from 13,500 to 3,500-4,500 and the typical canopy ride is usually less than 10 minutes, I have seen big lofty parachutes take very long to reach the ground, tandems and students also usually pull around 5,500-6,500 and there have been the occasional high pull (either intentional or accidental) which can take 20 plus minutes to get down from.

Also, wingsuiters can push the "60 seconds" of their jump closer to 2-3 minutes before reaching the pull altitudes above.

If they're vectoring you through an active drop zone at or below the jump altitude for the day as IFR with no idea what type of jumpers are on the load (and ATC isnt usually given that information), Id be asking for a new vector... Either that or you really need to be on your toes and have good visibility and awareness of what's going on around you.

 

[Silvaire]

I didnt say it was a 5 mile no-fly zone, I said it was a 4-5-mile zone I try and avoid. If your origin and destination were exactly opposite of the airport, I would personally go through it in that situation...

Okay I get you now. Actually I thought after posting that that was probably what you meant.

 

[Velocity173]

What about when the pilot is IFR on a clearance? The controller holds no responsibility for separation?

IFR clearance has nothing to do with it. There's no separation, IFR or VFR (in the U.S.) for non participating from jump aircraft while in Class E airspace. You may get a vector but that's completely up to the controller. As this guy found out while flying IFR, you could be directly under them while just before drops commence.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2000/April/200004_Features_Jumpers_Away.html

 

[danhagan]

My field doesn't stop AC activity at all during jumps AND has an acrobatic box NOTAM operating at the same time. All AC remain north of the field. Jumpers have a football field size box south of field at mid field. Acro planes get their box SW of field. Just have to watch for jump plane entering the pattern. These guys do a great job and all parties work well together.

 

[Henning]

IFR clearance has nothing to do with it. There's no separation, IFR or VFR (in the U.S.) for non participating from jump aircraft while in Class E airspace. You may get a vector but that's completely up to the controller. As this guy found out while flying IFR, you could be directly under them while just before drops commence.

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2000/April/200004_Features_Jumpers_Away.html

So, I am on an IFR clearance that takes me through the DZ, and the controller sees a risk of loss of separation with a non participating jump plane, there is no obligation to provide me separation from them?

Also, could you explain what 'participating' is defined as? Why would the jump pilot on frequency be considered 'non participating?

 

[Silvaire]

My field doesn't stop AC activity at all during jumps... These guys do a great job and all parties work well together.

Same at my field and we have gliders too.

 

[jesse]

The jumpers don't leave the airplane until the pilot gives them the thumbs up, if I would have been the pilot, I wouldn't have kicked them out the door into the path of a Baron. So yes, I would call him a jerk.

I really have no fear of skydiving, there are two things that really stop me. The first is that I don't need another expensive hobby. In addition to that, riding in the back of an overloaded airplane, with sometimes less than spectacular pilots, is more terrifying to me than jumping out.

 

[James331]

. In addition to that, riding in the back of an overloaded airplane, with sometimes less than spectacular pilots, is more terrifying to me than jumping out.

That's the difference between a rinky dink "skydive club" run by idiots, and a large turbine operation.

Most all turbine DZs run a tight ship with lots of money at stake, where I flew we NEVER overloaded the plane, the pilots had WAAAAY more hours and were WAAAY more current than most 172 or Baron drivers.

 

[Velocity173]

QUOTE=Henning;1725549] So, I am on an IFR clearance that takes me through the DZ, and the controller sees a risk of loss of separation with a non participating jump plane, there is no obligation to provide me separation from them?

Also, could you explain what 'participating' is defined as? Why would the jump pilot on frequency be considered 'non participating?[/QUOTE]




There is no risk of losing any separation between Fearless and the jump plane because in Class E there is no required separation. Only required separation is in A,B, and C. That's covered in the article I attached.

Participating, meaning the aircraft that are doing the jump activity. Whether that's one, two, three, whatever. Nonparticapating would be Fearless and his Baron. From the controller's handbook:

9−7−4. OTHER CONTROL AIRSPACE
Handle notifications to conduct jump operations in other Class E airspace as follows:
a. Issue a traffic advisory to the jump aircraft before the jump. Include aircraft type, altitude, and direction of flight of all known traffic which will transit the airspace within which the jump will be conducted.
NOTE− 14 CFR Section 105.13, Radio Equipment and Use Requirements, prescribes that, except when otherwise authorized by ATC, parachute jumping is not allowed in or into Class E airspace unless radio communications have been established between the aircraft and the FAA ATC facility having jurisdiction over the affected airspace of the first intended exit altitude at least 5 minutes before the jumping activity is to begin for the purpose of receiving information in the aircraft about known air traffic in the vicinity of the jump aircraft.
b. Issue advisories to all known aircraft which will transit the airspace within which the jump operations will be conducted. Advisories must consist of the location, time, duration, and altitude from which the jump will be made.
c. When time or numbers of aircraft make individual transmissions impractical, advisories to nonparticipating aircraft may be broadcast on appropriate control frequencies, or when available, the ATIS broadcast.
d. When requested by the pilot and to the extent possible, assist nonparticipating aircraft to avoid the airspace within which the jump will be conducted

 

[Silvaire]

Kind of what I meant by bonheadedness on both ends because there was nothing forcing Fearless to fly through the area where he knew full and well that they were going to do a jump. It's all part of sharing and getting along.

 

[flyingron]

I know where most of the dropzones are in my area. I'll usually ask IFR or VFR if they are operating. If they are I'll ask for (if IFR) or deviate on my own (VFR) around them if they're jumping.

Got a kind of interesting response a few weeks ago when bearing down on one of the airports with a drop zone:

27K: Are they jumping at Swan Creek today?
ZTL: No, but thanks for asking.

 

[apr911]

Got a kind of interesting response a few weeks ago when bearing down on one of the airports with a drop zone:

27K: Are they jumping at Swan Creek today?
ZTL: No, but thanks for asking.

When I was jumping regularly back in Texas (havent been jumping since moving to California in September), the main drop zone in the area was a private field 9NM SE of a Class D airport with the next nearest public airport 7NM ESE...

Because we were a private field with no immediate airports in the vicinity and no airways crossing over us, we didnt jump anytime any traffic entered our area.

The number of times Ive been in the back of a plane setting up for jump run only to have to hold and circle for 10 minutes because another plane decided to not only fly through the drop zone area but loiter in the area is/was incredible given the above (and lack of anything interesting to see in the area).

The controller's response in that scenario seems perfectly reasonable given the seemingly large number of pilots that will go buzzing through a DZ without any consideration to whether they were operating or not. Whether it's a lack of planning, poor recognition of the DZ symbol or something else entirely. To have a pilot not only aware of the DZ but cognitive enough to ask about the DZ without having to be told probably was something novel to the controller and I'd probably be thankful to have a pilot I wouldnt have had to tell all about the DZ if they were operating.

If the DZ were operating, the controller would probably have a lighter workload with you transiting the area than Joe Pilot who was completely unaware of the DZ and its operating habits. With you the controller could probably just give you the advisory on the DZ, current location of the jump plane and jump status as where Joe Pilot would probably need it more spelled out for them.

Your awareness/question would also to me indicate an interest not to get entangled in the DZ operations and thus more willing to take an early deviation around the DZ which again is probably easier on the controller then having to hold jump run or give you a more abrupt deviation near the airport.

 

[apr911]

There is no risk of losing any separation between Fearless and the jump plane because in Class E there is no required separation. Only required separation is in A,B, and C. That's covered in the article I attached.

Although the separation limits with other GA aircraft is ultimately left up to the PIC, under 91.111, you are still required to maintain enough distance to prevent a collision hazard and under 91.13, I imagine you would find yourself operating in a careless or reckless manner if you knowingly or unknowingly (assuming data was available that would have informed you) encroached on an operating DZ.

The only exception to 91.13 I could see would be an unannounced, uncleared, non-notam jump at a location where jump activity is not specified on a sectional... In which case, I could see the violation of 91.13 being put on the jump pilot since there was no way for you to know there would be a jumper in the area.

Additionally, since fearless was IFR his separation (except in visual conditions) mainly lies with the controller... While the FAR/AIM for airmen doesnt have any specifi requirement for separation in Class E, FAA Order 7110.65 does have vertical and lateral separations controllers are required to attempt to maintain...

 

[Velocity173]

Although the separation limits with other GA aircraft is ultimately left up to the PIC, under 91.111, you are still required to maintain enough distance to prevent a collision hazard and under 91.13, I imagine you would find yourself operating in a careless or reckless manner if you knowingly or unknowingly (assuming data was available that would have informed you) encroached on an operating DZ.

The only exception to 91.13 I could see would be an unannounced, uncleared, non-notam jump at a location where jump activity is not specified on a sectional... In which case, I could see the violation of 91.13 being put on the jump pilot since there was no way for you to know there would be a jumper in the area.

Additionally, since fearless was IFR his separation (except in visual conditions) mainly lies with the controller... While the FAR/AIM for airmen doesnt have any specifi requirement for separation in Class E, FAA Order 7110.65 does have vertical and lateral separations controllers are required to attempt to maintain...

The reference I attached was from the 7110.65. There is no separation in class E from jump planes. Only in A, B or C does sep exist.

ATC assistance in E is pilot request or if a controller goes out of their way to vector you around jump activity. They have no requirement to initiate that vector though.