BOEING 767F crash near Houston in the bay Atlas cargo

Ryanb said:
wild trying to speculate.
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Speculate? No. Speculation is thinking the stab jackscrew failed because it doesn't have a regular nut on it with no other reference.

On the other hand, the control column and throttles were shoved forward at the same time, so what could cause that?
 
Kenny Phillips said:
That would be a time where no decent pilot would consider a seat swap. Highly unlikely, and highly incompetent if so.
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Funny you mention that. We used to do seat swaps in the BUFF, in the VFR PATTERN! That's safing the seat, unstrap, jump out, let the other guy in, he straps all the harness, seat and oxygen connections back in, to include hastily adjust the size of the harness straps to fit you btw (since the Buff uses old parachutes that include the harness, as opposed to the new seats in the B-1 where people have individual chuteless harnesses they wear and are fitted individually), unstow the column aaaaand... perch to a touch n go! Oh, and accomplish that task at night. Yeah buddy!

Pretty stupid stuff indeed. Honestly though, that's the only stuff I actually remember fondly out of my tour of duty in that flying museum. The rest was effing drudgery you couldn't pay me to endure again. Pattern-work and Air-refueling is about all that kept me from writing the whole military thing off as a vocational mistake (for me). Well, that and a wartime tasker. But I never got the chance to, so that's water under the bridge.

All that aside, for part 121 yeah I agree, I cannot imagine a good reason they'd be fiddling around with seat swaps during critical phases of flight.
 
TCABM said:
Y’all ever do seat swaps in pre-contact?
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We'd back out to the geographic position, but not call ready until the new seat got back up online and unstowed his column. From a positional perspective (as opposed to legalities), it was de facto pre-contact, and yeah it happened all the time. We might have even let the EWO have a hack at AR once (dry contact attempt), but I can't confirm nor deny that urban legend :fingerwag:
 
Bell206 said:
Speculate? No. Speculation is thinking the stab jackscrew failed because it doesn't have a regular nut on it with no other reference.

On the other hand, the control column and throttles were shoved forward at the same time, so what could cause that?
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With the limited data being given, all you can do is speculate what caused it, which is exactly my point. You don't know, I don't know, the so called experts on CNN don't know. Anything any of us come up with from incomplete information is speculation.

The NTSB has more information, but they have to validate it and determine if it is pertinent to the investigation. They will ultimately figure it out, but that takes time. I say just wait until we have complete information rather than small selected nuggets. Often times these initial findings become irrelevant in the final conclusion.
 
RyanShort1 said:
What if someone has actually figured out a way to hack into and cause this kind of thing and it wasn’t the pilots’ fault at all? And yeah, I hate where my mind is going with that.
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Honest question to possibly nip this in the bud real fast. Would a relatively old cargo 763 even have any kind of "connection" to the web to get hacked? You can't hack what's not connected.
 
Bell206 said:
Speculate? No. Speculation is thinking the stab jackscrew failed because it doesn't have a regular nut on it with no other reference.

On the other hand, the control column and throttles were shoved forward at the same time, so what could cause that?
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Theoretical discussion here. Me just answering a question. Please don’t infer I know anything about this accident.

Sensing a stall. Stick shaker and autothrottle wake up. I wonder if a bird strike taking out the alpha vane would cause something like that.
 
Todd82 said:
Honest question to possibly nip this in the bud real fast. Would a relatively old cargo 763 even have any kind of "connection" to the web to get hacked? You can't hack what's not connected.
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I don’t think even a new one would have that capability.
 
It might be a software problem with the Max 800. Watching MSNBC and host says there is an FAA data base where pilots can report problems without fear of repercussions. She read three American pilots who reported aggressive nose down events right after take-off which required an immediate auto pilot disconnect; and one non-aggressive decent which also required a disconnect. Time will tell. Interestingly, and something I didn't know, there's only an acting director of the FAA today.
 
George Foster said:
It might be a software problem with the Max 800. Watching MSNBC and host says there is an FAA data base where pilots can report problems without fear of repercussions. She read three American pilots who reported aggressive nose down events right after take-off which required an immediate auto pilot disconnect; and one non-aggressive decent which also required a disconnect. Time will tell. Interestingly, and something I didn't know, there's only an acting director of the FAA today.
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That’s an issue with almost every plane flying. I can’t tell you the number of times the autopilot tried to kill me in the airlines. It’s numerous factors that can cause those aggressive nose down events. You just disconnect and reconnect the autopilot. If it tries it again then you write it up and get the gift of hand flying for the rest of the day.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Anything any of us come up with from incomplete information is speculation.
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We just disagree on the definition of speculation. Nothing more. Having been involved in a couple dozen NTSB investigations over the years I'll stick to mine. What Greg B contributed above is the answer I was looking for as that is exactly what the NTSB guys are doing: dispproving the obvious. So what do you think caused the throttles and control column to "rapidly" move forward?
 
Bell206 said:
So what do you think caused the throttles and control column to "rapidly" move forward?
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That's something that defies rational explanation and makes this incident so puzzling. What the heck happened? It has to make the families' pain even greater.
 
RyanShort1 said:
What if someone has actually figured out a way to hack into and cause this kind of thing and it wasn’t the pilots’ fault at all? And yeah, I hate where my mind is going with that.
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ejensen said:
Yeah, crossed my mind too. Like the smart cars that can be taken over from outside the vehicle.
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Not happening. Unless Boeing has some hidden system (a la MCAS) that we pilots don’t know about, there is no link between anything connected to the outside world to the pitch system of a 767.

We can get lateral route changes loaded into the FMS from ATC via CPDLC (Controller-Pilot Data Link Communications), but that would still involve us opening the CPDLC message, loading the route, then executing the change.
 
I would think CVR transcript would reveal a lot. Why not release it?
 
Because they aren't necessarily in the business of releasing audio of people dying. Might be a touch rough on the families and it isn't strictly like the public NEEDS the info.
 
dans2992 said:
I would think CVR transcript would reveal a lot. Why not release it?
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It is not the U.S. NTSB policy to release it this early, and I would imagine foreign entities would have similar policies. From the NTSB CVR handbook:

The CVR factual report will not be placed into the docket management system (DMS) until the majority of the factual reports are ready to be publically released. The recorder specialist will place a placeholder in DMS as soon as practical after the initial audition. The placeholder will remain in DMS until it is replaced by the CVR factual report immediately before the report is released to the public.
 
ircphoenix said:
Wasn't it just the one guy? 270 ish posts and only one guy getting the two mixed up... Not bad for an internet forum.
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Well, considering 224 of those 270ish were posted prior to the second plane even going down, I'm not sure our record is that great. ;)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Theoretical discussion here. Me just answering a question. Please don’t infer I know anything about this accident.

Sensing a stall. Stick shaker and autothrottle wake up. I wonder if a bird strike taking out the alpha vane would cause something like that.
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NTSB said stick shaker was not activated.
 
ircphoenix said:
Wasn't it just the one guy? 270 ish posts and only one guy getting the two mixed up... Not bad for an internet forum.
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I wasn’t mixed up, just saying that it’s odd that all three of the latest Boeing crashes involved descending with power... and I agree that the 767 deal probably has nothing to do with the others.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I wasn’t mixed up, just saying that it’s odd that all three of the latest Boeing crashes involved descending with power... and I agree that the 767 deal probably has nothing to do with the others.
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Especially since the system installed on the max 737 doesn’t exist on the 767. At least not to my knowledge...
 
RyanShort1 said:
I wasn’t mixed up, just saying that it’s odd that all three of the latest Boeing crashes involved descending with power....
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Not exactly. The two 737MAX crashes were immediately on departure during climb-out. The 767 was descending through 7,000 into its destination. The only commonality was all three were made by Boeing, and all three hit the ground (which is common in crashes).
 
RyanShort1 said:
I wasn’t mixed up, just saying that it’s odd that all three of the latest Boeing crashes involved descending with power... and I agree that the 767 deal probably has nothing to do with the others.
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58% of all aviation fatalities occur during the approach to landing phase of flight... so even if all three Boeing products crashed during that phase, it'd only be a little weird that it was 3 out of 3 instead of 2 out of 3.

Takeoff and climb accounts for about 22%.

So it statistically is weird... but not for the reasons you alluded to.

It's okay to make mistakes. I do all the time.
 
A copy of a post from a different forum....

"Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course . "

"The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Yoga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking. "
 
Bell206 said:
A copy of a post from a different forum....

"Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course . "

"The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Yoga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking. "
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I hope that was someone's creative writing exercise; if the truth, that will hurt.
 
So, this is saying that the FO _majorly_ overreacted to the accidental TOGA initiation?

Can TOGA be cancelled by hitting the button a second time? (Or just disconnecting the AP?)
 
dans2992 said:
So, this is saying that the FO _majorly_ overreacted to the accidental TOGA initiation?

Can TOGA be cancelled by hitting the button a second time? (Or just disconnecting the AP?)
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Easiest thing is to just disconnect the A/P and Autothrottles. Two clicks and you’ve turned it back into a great big 182.
 
Why would the CA and FO be fighting one another?
How does this happen? They are sitting side by side.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Why would the CA and FO be fighting one another?
How does this happen? They are sitting side by side.
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One pushes, the other pulls.

It was thus on the EgyptAir 767 that crashed with all souls on board lost, but in that instance, it was a pilot suicide - one pilot quietly murmuring prayers and pushing on his yoke, the other pleading for the first to help him pull out.

And, consider Air France 447, in which a perfectly-functioning Airbus A330 was taken from cruise to crashing into the Atlantic Ocean, simply because the pitot tubes (temporarily) iced-up. Tow pilots, next to each other, could not coordinate on the most basic airmanship - pitch + power = performance. The right-seater kept pulling the joystick full-aft, keeping teh 330 in a deep stall. The Captain, who had retired to the crew rest area (nothing wrong with that, it was a flight from Rio to Paris), returned to the flight deck and figured out what was going on, but they were too low (around 10,000' MSL) to recover.
 
Bell206 said:
A copy of a post from a different forum....

"Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course . "

"The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Yoga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking. "
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I'm guessing YOGA means Take Off To Around, but what was Yoda doing in the cockpit?:)
 
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