BOEING 767F crash near Houston in the bay Atlas cargo

Forget about TOGA & all that nonsense. Just another rumor the other day from a guy. He said his scuttlebutt is the F/O locked his legs against the yoke & the Cap dislodged part of the the control yoke pulling against him. That was the reason for the partial recovery on the nose down, and the factual info that they were pulling against each other.

Again, just some hearsay, but seems more plausible than much of the speculation.
 
Reviving thread.

This story sure disappeared. I haven’t seen jack about it anywhere official for months.

Anyone else?

Seems like the media just ignores it too. 767 goes for a swim near Houston and nothing.
 
They moved on to conspiracy theories about prison suicides.
 
denverpilot said:
Anyone else?
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The NTSB Prelim just came out 7/29. Usually when the Prelim takes that long (5 months) it's one of two things: the plane is missing or there was a crew issue. It's even money the Factual and Final reports will be released together.
 
Bell206 said:
The NTSB Prelim just came out 7/29. Usually when the Prelim takes that long (5 months) it's one of two things: the plane is missing or there was a crew issue. It's even money the Factual and Final reports will be released together.
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Yep, there are rarely "interim" or progress reports, unless, say, the son of an assassinated president is involved.
 
The Ajuster on my aircraft loss also has a aircraft salvage company that spent 40 plus days picking up stuff with his crew out of the bay on this crash...he deals in this work every day...as of last week they really not sure what has happened but weather although not great seems not to be an issue...
 
denverpilot said:
Reviving thread.

This story sure disappeared. I haven’t seen jack about it anywhere official for months.

Anyone else?

Seems like the media just ignores it too. 767 goes for a swim near Houston and nothing.
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Yeah, I've been thinking about this one too. It really did drop off the radar. Probably everyone focusing on the 737 Max issues.

Bell206 said:
The NTSB Prelim just came out 7/29. Usually when the Prelim takes that long (5 months) it's one of two things: the plane is missing or there was a crew issue. It's even money the Factual and Final reports will be released together.
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And ya didn't even link to it? o_O;)

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20190223X60222&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=MA

That's about the shortest prelim I've ever seen. There's nothing in it that we didn't already know the day after the accident. The final is probably gonna be a doozy.
 
I hope it’s not another weight shift / poor loading accident. That’s been my concern on this one from the start. Begin the descent and the nose comes down, and something shifts so far forward they couldn’t fly it anymore. Would be tragic.
 
denverpilot said:
I hope it’s not another weight shift / poor loading accident. That’s been my concern on this one from the start. Begin the descent and the nose comes down, and something shifts so far forward they couldn’t fly it anymore. Would be tragic.
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It'd also be pretty bad luck for this to happen right as they're encountering the gust front from that storm...
 
It's not so much that it fell off the radar, it's that all those close to that sector of the industry are generally convinced there's nothing wrong with the 76 and things pointed to pilot error, months ago. Since only 3 people died, and everybody got lucky they didn't park it in some yuppie suburb like The Woodlands, it's not in the NTSB highest level of priority to throw everything at it, like they did Colgan 3407.

According to the RUMINT on APC and some of the folks from work who work for cargo outfits, FO apparently pooched it. Completely overreacted to an accidental TOGA actuation (or other reason for throttles going to max) and neither CA nor FO ever brought engines back through the sequence. The CVR and FDR apparently support the notion the FO pushed the column and thus airplane into 49 degrees NL, CA fought all he could, including apparently shearing the column retaining pin/bolt while pulling his column back while the FO pushed in a panic, like those people who whiskey throttle into a convenience store. CVR indicates tons of stuff hitting the ceiling, some rumor mill posits the sounds are congruent with even the jumpseater hitting the ceiling. According to APC, pictures of the stab trim ballscrew congruent with a trim position of 230 KIAS, aka, no runaway trim and certainly a position to be expected at the TOD before the whole thing went for a wild ride.

Basically, Occam's Razor again: Mishap crew lawndarted a perfectly functioning 767 into the muddy Houston swampline. Feel free to wait for the NTSB of course. Due diligence and all that. /sarc

Those who fly the 76 are really the ones to have most invested into it. If I flew one, I'd feel comfortable flying it all these months post-accident, based on what has been made available so far, on the mechanical side of the question. To each their own.
 
denverpilot said:
I hope it’s not another weight shift / poor loading accident. That’s been my concern on this one from the start. Begin the descent and the nose comes down, and something shifts so far forward they couldn’t fly it anymore. Would be tragic.
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I have a hunch it will be a bad pilot that panicked and ****ed uprt so bad everyone died.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's not so much that it fell off the radar, it's that all those close to that sector of the industry are generally convinced there's nothing wrong with the 76 and things pointed to pilot error, months ago. Since only 3 people died, and everybody got lucky they didn't park it in some yuppie suburb like The Woodlands, it's not in the NTSB highest level of priority to throw everything at it, like they did Colgan 3407.

According to the RUMINT on APC and some of the folks from work who work for cargo outfits, FO apparently pooched it. Completely overreacted to an accidental TOGA actuation (or other reason for throttles going to max) and neither CA nor FO ever brought engines back through the sequence. The CVR and FDR apparently support the notion the FO pushed the column and thus airplane into 49 degrees NL, CA fought all he could, including apparently shearing the column retaining pin/bolt while pulling his column back while the FO pushed in a panic, like those people who whiskey throttle into a convenience store. CVR indicates tons of stuff hitting the ceiling, some rumor mill posits the sounds are congruent with even the jumpseater hitting the ceiling. According to APC, pictures of the stab trim ballscrew congruent with a trim position of 230 KIAS, aka, no runaway trim and certainly a position to be expected at the TOD before the whole thing went for a wild ride.

Basically, Occam's Razor again: Mishap crew lawndarted a perfectly functioning 767 into the muddy Houston swampline. Feel free to wait for the NTSB of course. Due diligence and all that. /sarc

Those who fly the 76 are really the ones to have most invested into it. If I flew one, I'd feel comfortable flying it all these months post-accident, based on what has been made available so far, on the mechanical side of the question. To each their own.
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I know someone on property. Everything you said is consistent with what he has shared.
 
Oh that story seriously sucks. Damn it kids, pitch plus power equals...

Sigh.
 
I keep thinking of the jumpseater. Class date at United and commuting in to his no-kidding last trip after attaining escape velocity from Mesa. And mind you, that cat was commuting to Mesa from Colombia! And here I thought people were nuts when my close family friend told me about a guy he hired part-time on his part 91 operation back in TJIG, when said hire finally threw in the towel on commuting to Republic, SJU-IND for 5 years! The struggle is real at the FFDs, to say the least.

At any rate, jumpseater left a 6 mo old (at the time), stepdaughter and the new-to-him wife in Colombia. Bought a house down there and everything, about to sign on with United that week. Tough break this life can be sometimes. Being taken out riding shotgun by that level of incompetence with no control, that's not how I want to go. I rather get T-boned on my way to work, for at least I'd have some form of control over my lot.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I keep thinking of the jumpseater. Class date at United and commuting in to his no-kidding last trip after attaining escape velocity from Mesa. And mind you, that cat was commuting to Mesa from Colombia! And here I thought people were nuts when my close family friend told me about a guy he hired part-time on his part 91 operation back in TJIG, when said hire finally threw in the towel on commuting to Republic, SJU-IND for 5 years! The struggle is real at the FFDs, to say the least.

At any rate, jumpseater left a 6 mo old (at the time), stepdaughter and the new-to-him wife in Colombia. Bought a house down there and everything, about to sign on with United that week. Tough break this life can be sometimes. Being taken out riding shotgun by that level of incompetence with no control, that's not how I want to go. I rather get T-boned on my way to work, for at least I'd have some form of control over my lot.
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Poor kid. United left his seat in class open and gave his wife a set of wings and some other nice stuff. But still horrible for a young family.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If you shouldn't have said it - And I agree, you shouldn't have - Maybe you should delete it. ;)
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Well. Then the quote would have to be deleted... not sure how to get that done. Plus the apology would have no context. I guess at this point. I said what I said. Inappropriate or not. My apology and retraction is there... no point in pretending it didn’t happen. I don’t mind admitting when I’m in the wrong.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's not so much that it fell off the radar, it's that all those close to that sector of the industry are generally convinced there's nothing wrong with the 76 and things pointed to pilot error, months ago. Since only 3 people died, and everybody got lucky they didn't park it in some yuppie suburb like The Woodlands, it's not in the NTSB highest level of priority to throw everything at it, like they did Colgan 3407.

According to the RUMINT on APC and some of the folks from work who work for cargo outfits, FO apparently pooched it. Completely overreacted to an accidental TOGA actuation (or other reason for throttles going to max) and neither CA nor FO ever brought engines back through the sequence. The CVR and FDR apparently support the notion the FO pushed the column and thus airplane into 49 degrees NL, CA fought all he could, including apparently shearing the column retaining pin/bolt while pulling his column back while the FO pushed in a panic, like those people who whiskey throttle into a convenience store. CVR indicates tons of stuff hitting the ceiling, some rumor mill posits the sounds are congruent with even the jumpseater hitting the ceiling. According to APC, pictures of the stab trim ballscrew congruent with a trim position of 230 KIAS, aka, no runaway trim and certainly a position to be expected at the TOD before the whole thing went for a wild ride.

Basically, Occam's Razor again: Mishap crew lawndarted a perfectly functioning 767 into the muddy Houston swampline. Feel free to wait for the NTSB of course. Due diligence and all that. /sarc

Those who fly the 76 are really the ones to have most invested into it. If I flew one, I'd feel comfortable flying it all these months post-accident, based on what has been made available so far, on the mechanical side of the question. To each their own.
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I am so baffled at how this happens. Does the CVR have one guy screaming DUDE what are you Doing, I've got this, My Plane!
Did they both think they were right and the other guy was wrong? I really want to see a transcript just so I can understand how this takes place with 2 people a foot apart doing opposite things.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am so baffled at how this happens. Does the CVR have one guy screaming DUDE what are you Doing, I've got this, My Plane!
Did they both think they were right and the other guy was wrong? I really want to see a transcript just so I can understand how this takes place with 2 people a foot apart doing opposite things.
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It's harder to imagine with an (experienced?) pilot, but I have seem some crazy student reactions that didn't make a hill of beans worth of sense.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am so baffled at how this happens. Does the CVR have one guy screaming DUDE what are you Doing, I've got this, My Plane!
Did they both think they were right and the other guy was wrong? I really want to see a transcript just so I can understand how this takes place with 2 people a foot apart doing opposite things.
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You dont have to wait for this one. Go read AF 447, or colgan 3407, or ups 1354 et al ad nauseam.

From my perspective, the system is built around two people capable as acting as captains, with further enough "background"/implied proficiency to act as instructors by proxy at a moment's notice (hence the atp allowance for some to instruct in the part 121 environment without a CFI ticket). This is why majors insisted in the past on plucking turbine captains and military aircraft commanders to fill their new hire spots, historically.

These days not everybody can be so picky in properly vetting or screening for these demonstrated attributes, so automation has papered over much of the deficiency brought into the modern airliners on the human factor front. Just like the rest of the universe, some days of the year you witness lunar eclipses aka conflation of circumstance and two magoos at the wheel who happened to get paired together. And carnage ensues. Its not complicated really.

The incredulousness comes from the pedestrian belief that the FAA affords you a SINGLE standard of safety. To that, I say caveat emptor, for it is a naive (perhaps religiously so) belief not supported by facts. Don't take my words for it of course, go read said accidents.
 
What would have happened if after they accidentally hit the go around button and then just kept their hands off the controls?
"Dude look at the Attitude indicator. you are pitching us toward the ground" seems like a simple thing to point out.

I get that I fly a little simple plane so I have no idea how these big planes work but it seems so simple from the comfort of my office chair.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
What would have happened if after they accidentally hit the go around button and then just kept their hands off the controls?
"Dude look at the Attitude indicator. you are pitching us toward the ground" seems like a simple thing to point out.

I get that I fly a little simple plane so I have no idea how these big planes work but it seems so simple from the comfort of my office chari.
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Same here... is a 767 THAT different? I try to tell myself “hey, don’t second guess the pro crew”.... but.... is this perhaps the consequence of very little “hand flying”?
 
sourdough44 said:
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-atlas-air-fatal-crash-pilots-sue-2019-9?r=US&IR=T

Trying to set the narrative before the next release??
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I'm not gonna single out this family any more I would the widows who sue every PMA/OEM on the piston airplane the proverbial dear hubby slams into the woods during a spatial-D/LOC accident. It just comes with the territory in America. To be completely honest, if there was a party I thought would have the most probable reason to sue in this fashion, it would be the surviving spouse of the jumpseater. Not sure if the Colombian National angle (I'm assuming, not sure if she was a dual citizen or not) was a dissuading factor in her choice not to sue Amazon and Atlas so far, but who knows.

It's gotta be tough processing the fact your loved one was the one at the controls when other people perished and the NTSB comes out and tells the world he pooched it (yeah yeah "not yet", but let's cut the professional deference pantomime, that's where they're going with this, and it has been known for months) . Nobody is really prepared to endure public rage directed at their lost loved one; it's just gotta be hard hearing rage directed at them when accidents like these occur. I don't envy their situation, and that's even before we acknowledge nobody should be directing anger at the surviving family of the PF in the first place. I can see how such a lawsuit can lessen the sympathy for them though. It's a lose-lose situation for all involved.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Not sure if the Colombian National angle (I'm assuming, not sure if she was a dual citizen or not) was a dissuading factor in her choice not to sue Amazon and Atlas so far, but who knows.
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She still has plenty of time to file as do other parties. But I'll bet the bank she's been contacted already by someone willing to represent her especially with Amazon in the mix. Would be interesting to read the actual claimant filing from above.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I'm not gonna single out this family any more I would the widows who sue every PMA/OEM on the piston airplane the proverbial dear hubby slams into the woods during a spatial-D/LOC accident. It just comes with the territory in America. To be completely honest, if there was a party I thought would have the most probable reason to sue in this fashion, it would be the surviving spouse of the jumpseater. Not sure if the Colombian National angle (I'm assuming, not sure if she was a dual citizen or not) was a dissuading factor in her choice not to sue Amazon and Atlas so far, but who knows.

It's gotta be tough processing the fact your loved one was the one at the controls when other people perished and the NTSB comes out and tells the world he pooched it (yeah yeah "not yet", but let's cut the professional deference pantomime, that's where they're going with this, and it has been known for months) . Nobody is really prepared to endure public rage directed at their lost loved one; it's just gotta be hard hearing rage directed at them when accidents like these occur. I don't envy their situation, and that's even before we acknowledge nobody should be directing anger at the surviving family of the PF in the first place. I can see how such a lawsuit can lessen the sympathy for them though. It's a lose-lose situation for all involved.
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the thing is, NTSB reports are not addmissable in court. so it wil get really ugly when the lawyers start laying out their idea of the truth.
 
It may be buried in the back pages, who was the ‘pilot flying’ on this flight? Was it the F/O?
 
sourdough44 said:
It may be buried in the back pages, who was the ‘pilot flying’ on this flight? Was it the F/O?
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Yes, It is my understanding that during the accident sequence, the FO was the PF. Dual manipulation of the controls eventually ensued as predicted, the CA is even rumored to have sheared the column retaining pin he pulled back so hard against the FO inputs. Just absolute chaos over a perfectly flying airplane.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Yes, It is my understanding that during the accident sequence, the FO was the PF. Dual manipulation of the controls eventually ensued as predicted, the CA is even rumored to have sheared the column retaining pin he pulled back so hard against the FO inputs. Just absolute chaos over a perfectly flying airplane.
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Any word on a CVR or even a transcript?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Yes, It is my understanding that during the accident sequence, the FO was the PF. Dual manipulation of the controls eventually ensued as predicted, the CA is even rumored to have sheared the column retaining pin he pulled back so hard against the FO inputs. Just absolute chaos over a perfectly flying airplane.
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And the jumpseater just sat there and watched.?? (and I know there was not much time to do much of anything to counteract)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What would have happened if after they accidentally hit the go around button and then just kept their hands off the controls?
"Dude look at the Attitude indicator. you are pitching us toward the ground" seems like a simple thing to point out.

I get that I fly a little simple plane so I have no idea how these big planes work but it seems so simple from the comfort of my office chair.
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The plane would have gone up, not down.
 
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