Big Screw Up get the Faa involved or not?

skyflea

skyflea

Pre-Flight
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
61
Location
Jasper, TX
Display Name
Display name:
skyflea
I just purchased another airplane for crosscountry travel, and in the process i pay this facility for a pre buy inspection, the ap come back with very good comp numbers and 1 major ad, based on that i offer the owner a cash offer according to my budget and the annual plus ad cost, now one day before delivery this shops come back to me saying i need a prop overhaul, i got the ad list over my ap here in town and he found that this ap that perform the pre buy inspection actually forgot to do the ad last year and sign the annual any way. If the ad was performed and prop was keep current the overhaul wont be necessary, the excuse of prop shop is that perform both ad's on the prop cost more than overhaul, But overhaul would take care of both ad's. Im really ****ed far away from the plane and my flight to Florida on my own plane for Christmas is not happening. What would you do?

prop is a hartzell 2 blades on a O-360
AD 95-11-08 AND AD 2005-18-12
 
Have the prop overhauled. :dunno:


You are buying a used plane based on your budget. You got want you paid for.
 
In business and commerce the laws are clear. You hired a pro certified mechanic to give you facts. He omitted facts and charged you for his professional opinion which is materially factually wrong.

You made a purchase and later found out that the same mechanic knew about the discrepancy.

I would call an attorney take the facts to him and see if you can have success with a small claims court action in texas. I think you can.

The facts are clear. The attorney can tell you what and how to lay out your proofs.

As a minimum you should be able to get your prebuy money back.

I'd ask the a&P if he really wants faa brought into this? FAA will not help you they will make sure that you get that plain in full compliance. But they may also go against the mechanic.

Your next call should be to a business/commerce law lawyer.

BTW- I got my 2 blade hartzel inspected IRAN for about $2200. I do not recommend aircraft specialties in Tulsa as i feel they screwed me.
 
Last edited:
If you think something was misrepresented, discuss it with the appropriate parties and get them to pay for part of the repair.

Do the overhaul, or buy an STC'd prop with no ADs.
 
Geico266 said:
Have the prop overhauled. :dunno:


You are buying a used plane based on your budget. You got want you paid for.
Click to expand...

Actually he did not get what he paid for. He paid for a professional inspection and got a crap sandwich.

This is why I say to fellow owners anytime you deal with a Mechanic/IA be very careful. There are lots of more bad ones than there are good ones.
 
skyflea said:
I just purchased another airplane for crosscountry travel, and in the process i pay this facility for a pre buy inspection, the ap come back with very good comp numbers and 1 major ad, based on that i offer the owner a cash offer according to my budget and the annual plus ad cost, now one day before delivery this shops come back to me saying i need a prop overhaul, i got the ad list over my ap here in town and he found that this ap that perform the pre buy inspection actually forgot to do the ad last year and sign the annual any way. If the ad was performed and prop was keep current the overhaul wont be necessary, the excuse of prop shop is that perform both ad's on the prop cost more than overhaul, But overhaul would take care of both ad's. Im really ****ed far away from the plane and my flight to Florida on my own plane for Christmas is not happening. What would you do?

prop is a hartzell 2 blades on a O-360
AD 95-11-08 AND AD 2005-18-12
Click to expand...

Oy, nothing the FAA can do on this, it's a tort matter for civil court, you'll have to sue, he may have E&O coverage on his insurance.

Second thing, if you intend to keep this plane more than 5 years/500 hours, don't overhaul the prop, replace it with a Top Prop without the ADs on it, it'll pay for itself on the next cycle.
 
the plane still in the shop, my point is he sign the annual last year with out the ad done and now he was trying to have me pay for his mistake, the ex owner of the plane was unaware of this ad, and actually on prebuy inspection this should have come up would be very ease to hang is ass, im trying to resolve this matter in a nice way not looking to ruin his career but he sign and unworthy plane as comply with all ads and he really try to stiff me.
 
Do I understand that you had the A&P who did the annuals on the plane also do the pre-buy?
 
AdamZ said:
Do I understand that you had the A&P who did the annuals on the plane also do the pre-buy?
Click to expand...

That is a no, no and we now see why.

Generally its recommended to have prebuy done by someone not even on the field, let alone the ia who signs it off.

Even experienced mechanics of good ethics might miss something so a 2nd mechanics look might catch what the first guy missed. Then the second issue is what is a "prebuy"

That is something that needs to be spelled out.
 
skyflea said:
the plane still in the shop, my point is he sign the annual last year with out the ad done and now he was trying to have me pay for his mistake, the ex owner of the plane was unaware of this ad, and actually on prebuy inspection this should have come up would be very ease to hang is ass, im trying to resolve this matter in a nice way not looking to ruin his career but he sign and unworthy plane as comply with all ads and he really try to stiff me.
Click to expand...

The Ad may not have been due on the annual, one of them is 5years/500 hrs. If the prop was beyond the AD on the last annual, you can see the FAA then, and likely you'll be able to sue for more than the cost of the prop insinuating fraud, however Caveat Emptor may trump you since you used the same mechanic.
 
Last edited:
He never told me he did last annual on plane.
All this come out after my ap got the copy of the books from the broker, also the plane is located in a very remote area was no to many options to get the pre buy.
And yes AD was due last annual, he did told my AP that they have trouble last year on their computers and miss the AD.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
BTW- I got my 2 blade hartzel inspected IRAN for about $2200. I do not recommend aircraft specialties in Tulsa as i feel they screwed me.
Click to expand...

That's not too bad of a price for a two blade, constant speed prop overhaul...shopping around might get it done a little cheaper.
 
skyflea said:
I just purchased another airplane for crosscountry travel, and in the process i pay this facility for a pre buy inspection, the ap come back with very good comp numbers and 1 major ad, based on that i offer the owner a cash offer according to my budget and the annual plus ad cost, now one day before delivery this shops come back to me saying i need a prop overhaul, i got the ad list over my ap here in town and he found that this ap that perform the pre buy inspection actually forgot to do the ad last year and sign the annual any way. If the ad was performed and prop was keep current the overhaul wont be necessary, the excuse of prop shop is that perform both ad's on the prop cost more than overhaul, But overhaul would take care of both ad's. Im really ****ed far away from the plane and my flight to Florida on my own plane for Christmas is not happening. What would you do?

prop is a hartzell 2 blades on a O-360
AD 95-11-08 AND AD 2005-18-12
Click to expand...

I see this as a pretty straight forward mistake.

If the A&P that you paid, did the prebuy and gave you a written list of discrepencies, and based on that you made an offer on the plane, and then later the SAME A&P disclosed he missed a AD and signed the logs and now claims the plane needs a prop AD addressed. My first call would be to the mechanic and tell him he fixes the prop on his own dime... if he squalks, then take the log books to the local FSDO and file a report...
They cannot get your money back,,, but they WILL make the mechanics life miserable..:yes:;)
 
Henning said:
$2200 for the condition that prop was in was cheap Tony.
Click to expand...

They pre-quoted me $975 plus parts.
The parts were $600.

$1575 is about what I expected.

They demanded $2975 and I stood in the office fighting with them for 2 hrs to get it down to $2200. The owner was in the Caribbean and would call me back if I was not happy with that. He never called me back and I could not reach him by phone afterwards.

I do not believe them to be an ethical company.

$1575 is a fair stretch from $2200.

I took the risk choosing the labor plus cost of parts without knowing what the parts list could be, however when they only found 3 bolts to replace they wanted to get their normal rate anyway.
 
Last edited:
the AP miss the AD last year and sign the annual, plane flown 40 hrs last year with out the AD comply, now i come along bought the plane and he try to pull a fast one on me, saying i missed on log book check, but we found all the mishap wen we check the logs. He missed last year and didn't told me about it on the pre buy. And as far i'm concern i'm not paying crap for it, not because i can't, just because is right. I don't pay for peoples mistakes but always pay for my ones. Got my lawyer involved he deal with it, end of story.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
They pre-quoted me $975 plus parts.
The parts were $600.

$1575 is about what I expected.

They demanded $2975 and I stood in the office fighting with them for 2 hrs to get it down to $2200. The owner was in the Caribbean and would call me back if I was not happy with that. He never called me back and I could not reach him by phone afterwards.

I do not believe them to be an ethical company.

$1575 is a fair stretch from $2200.

I took the risk choosing the labor plus cost of parts without knowing what the parts list could be, however when they only found 3 bolts to replace they wanted to get their normal rate anyway.
Click to expand...

Did they see your prop before they got it or was it a phone quote? I find it impossible to believe that the only thing replaced was 3 bolts, that prop was shot, I couldn't believe your IA passed it on the prior annual.
 
skyflea said:
the AP miss the AD last year and sign the annual, plane flown 40 hrs last year with out the AD comply, now i come along bought the plane and he try to pull a fast one on me, saying i missed on log book check, but we found all the mishap wen we check the logs. He missed last year and didn't told me about it on the pre buy. And as far i'm concern i'm not paying crap for it, not because i can't, just because is right. I don't pay for peoples mistakes but always pay for my ones. Got my lawyer involved he deal with it, end of story.
Click to expand...

Good for you...

Let us know how it turns out..
 
skyflea said:
the AP miss the AD last year and sign the annual, plane flown 40 hrs last year with out the AD comply, now i come along bought the plane and he try to pull a fast one on me, saying i missed on log book check, but we found all the mishap wen we check the logs. He missed last year and didn't told me about it on the pre buy. And as far i'm concern i'm not paying crap for it, not because i can't, just because is right. I don't pay for peoples mistakes but always pay for my ones. Got my lawyer involved he deal with it, end of story.
Click to expand...

Probably the best call to make, it's the only one likely to provide a solution.
 
Henning said:
Did they see your prop before they got it or was it a phone quote? I find it impossible to believe that the only thing replaced was 3 bolts, that prop was shot, I couldn't believe your IA passed it on the prior annual.
Click to expand...

I have to dig out the records, I will give you more details within a week.
 
Henning said:
Probably the best call to make, it's the only one likely to provide a solution.
Click to expand...

Yes people tend to take you seriously when they get a call or letter from your attorney. They know you are not going away if they ignore you. With that said there is only so much you can afford to have him do to solve a $2500 issue.

I guess if there is bad will or attempt to fraud you can get damages which make it worth letting the attorney go all the way.

Boy do insurance companies stand at attention when the words "bad faith" are used.

Insurance companies have to pay not only your legal fees, court costs, filing fees but at least triple damages when they lose.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Yes people tend to take you seriously when they get a call or letter from your attorney. They know you are not going away if they ignore you. With that said there is only so much you can afford to have him do to solve a $2500 issue.

I guess if there is bad will or attempt to fraud you can get damages which make it worth letting the attorney go all the way.

Boy do insurance companies stand at attention when the words "bad faith" are used.

Insurance companies have to pay not only your legal fees, court costs, filing fees but at least triple damages when they lose.
Click to expand...

I thought you get to recover legal expenses in real damages suits.
 
Henning said:
I thought you get to recover legal expenses in real damages suits.
Click to expand...

yes if you win. you have a problem with an attorney taking someone to court for less than $20k... The legal fees even at a lowly $200 per hour rate will add up to 50 hrs is $10k. If you lose now you are out $2500 plus $10k. If you win you are going good.

This para says it better than I can.

The law recognizes three major categories of damages: Compensatory Damages, which are intended to restore what a plaintiff has lost as a result of a defendant's wrongful conduct; nominal damages, which consist of a small sum awarded to a plaintiff who has suffered no substantial loss or injury but has nevertheless experienced an invasion of rights; and punitive damages, which are awarded not to compensate a plaintiff for injury suffered but to penalize a defendant for particularly egregious, wrongful conduct. In specific situations, two other forms of damages may be awarded: treble and liquidated.

If you have a case that gets Punitive damages or treble damages then that is a multiple of the amounts won. This greatly increases the leverage to negotiate a settlement with the bad actor. As he can have to pay his legal fees, your legal fees, the damage and 3x the damage (punitive are not limited to only 3x). So now if you are the guy who screwed up, your attorney is saying do you want to defend this? Really?
 
skyflea said:
the AP miss the AD last year and sign the annual, plane flown 40 hrs last year with out the AD comply, now i come along bought the plane and he try to pull a fast one on me, saying i missed on log book check, but we found all the mishap wen we check the logs. He missed last year and didn't told me about it on the pre buy. And as far i'm concern i'm not paying crap for it, not because i can't, just because is right. I don't pay for peoples mistakes but always pay for my ones. Got my lawyer involved he deal with it, end of story.
Click to expand...

When you prove that at FSDO, the A&P-IA will loose their certificate for 90 days. That will break the chain of 3 year continuity for the IA, then when the 90 days are over, the A&P will be required to wait 3 years before they can reapply for the IA.

Putting them out of work, is this what you really want?
 
Last edited:
Someone is LYING to you. An overhaul won't do squat with regard to 95-11-08. That is a specific inspection that has to be done periodically to the dual shoulder hubs. The overhaul will get you out off 2005-18-14 because Hartzell incorporated that work into the overhaul procedure.

Note Hartzell will not perform either AD if they think your propeller is beyond TBO. They will most likely condemn your blades as well. NEVER have work done at Hartzell's corrupt overhaul facility. Find a reputable independent prop shop.
 
Tom-D said:
When you prove that at FSDO, the A&P-IA will loose their certificate for 90 days. That will break the chain of 3 year continuity for the IA, then when the 90 days are over, the A&P will be required to wait 3 years before they can reapply for the IA.

Putting them out of work, is this what you really want?
Click to expand...

Ok
This person (AP) offer to ferry the plane, after i send him a check for fuel expenses he ask me to not say anything to the office manager ( first sign )
after discussing this with my wife we agree in not lying about this if they ask us ferry pilot name. I lost the airline ticket i bought for this guy to go back Sunday after the ferry, so far he show me that he doesn't give a dam about his job, they still have till Monday to rectify their error, and my lawyer was pretty clear i can go fora new prop if i want, but i just want my dam plane in the condition he told me on the prebuy.
If he looses is licence is his choice.
 
Tom-D said:
When you prove that at FSDO, the A&P-IA will loose their certificate for 90 days. That will break the chain of 3 year continuity for the IA, then when the 90 days are over, the A&P will be required to wait 3 years before they can reapply for the IA.

Putting them out of work, is this what you really want?
Click to expand...

Depends. Sounds like a Starkville staredown to me. When my dentist walked up close to the chair I slid my hand under his white coat, got a gentle grip and asked "We're not going to hurt each other today, are we?"
 
flyingron said:
Someone is LYING to you. An overhaul won't do squat with regard to 95-11-08. That is a specific inspection that has to be done periodically to the dual shoulder hubs. The overhaul will get you out off 2005-18-14 because Hartzell incorporated that work into the overhaul procedure.

Note Hartzell will not perform either AD if they think your propeller is beyond TBO. They will most likely condemn your blades as well. NEVER have work done at Hartzell's corrupt overhaul facility. Find a reputable independent prop shop.
Click to expand...


Ron,the logic from the prop shop, is that performing both AD's at the same time would run more than overhauling the prop. they quote me 3000 for overhaul and they say both AD's would be comply. Btw they contact the shop I can get the prop overhauled in Houston for lot less than that.
 
skyflea said:
Ok
This person (AP) offer to ferry the plane, after i send him a check for fuel expenses he ask me to not say anything to the office manager ( first sign )
after discussing this with my wife we agree in not lying about this if they ask us ferry pilot name. I lost the airline ticket i bought for this guy to go back Sunday after the ferry, so far he show me that he doesn't give a dam about his job, they still have till Monday to rectify their error, and my lawyer was pretty clear i can go fora new prop if i want, but i just want my dam plane in the condition he told me on the prebuy.
If he looses is licence is his choice.
Click to expand...

Great attitude sir..:yes:..

You paid him for his expertise to evaluate your potential purchase... He SCREWED up and that will cost you money..:yesnod:..

To hell with his license and his livelyhood....

Make the son of a ***** pay your out of pocket costs.... it is the only fair thing that needs to be done...


Tom... Take off your mechanics hat and install your decent, common sense, human being hat... Trying to lay the guilt trip on the OP because another A&P screwed up is downright WRONG...
 
N801BH said:
Great attitude sir..:yes:..

You paid him for his expertise to evaluate your potential purchase... He SCREWED up and that will cost you money..:yesnod:..

To hell with his license and his livelyhood....

Make the son of a ***** pay your out of pocket costs.... it is the only fair thing that needs to be done...


Tom... Take off your mechanics hat and install your decent, common sense, human being hat... Trying to lay the guilt trip on the OP because another A&P screwed up is downright WRONG...
Click to expand...

My AP just call me he found AD 2005-18-12 was missed in two separate occasions and the facility AP blame the employer on lack of current airworthiness data. Imo the **** is going to hit the fan :yes:
 
Henning said:
Oy, nothing the FAA can do on this, it's a tort matter for civil court, you'll have to sue, he may have E&O coverage on his insurance.

Second thing, if you intend to keep this plane more than 5 years/500 hours, don't overhaul the prop, replace it with a Top Prop without the ADs on it, it'll pay for itself on the next cycle.
Click to expand...
6 of one, half a dozen of the other. The top props have no AD's but they have the same 5 year inspection baked into the type certificate
 
Tom-D said:
Putting them out of work, is this what you really want?
Click to expand...

skyflea said:
My AP just call me he found AD 2005-18-12 was missed in two separate occasions and the facility AP blame the employer on lack of current airworthiness data. Imo the **** is going to hit the fan :yes:
Click to expand...

It appears to me "putting them out of work" would be the proper thing to do.
 
What does your sales contract say about discovery of undisclosed defects? Adjustment in price? Cancellation with return of all monies? Third party mediation?
 
Ah yes, the joys of buying a used airplane.
Second only to the joys of buying a used boat.
 
Tom-D said:
When you prove that at FSDO, the A&P-IA will loose their certificate for 90 days. That will break the chain of 3 year continuity for the IA, then when the 90 days are over, the A&P will be required to wait 3 years before they can reapply for the IA.

Putting them out of work, is this what you really want?
Click to expand...

LOL, really, Tom? You're saying an A&P that (from how I'm seeing the likely reality here) intentionally screwed a customer so that he could pocket some money off him later deserves to be spared an all out defensive maneuver that will likely result in justice for all parties?

Absolutely not. Burn him, take him to the FSDO, cost him his job, and THEN go after the money he owes you. When he's jobless, homeless, and probably family-less since they'll not going to support a cheating loser, he'll realize what he did wrong.

**** him.
 
(1) There was no record of current Airworthiness Directives concerning AD 2005-18-12, concerning the propeller on this aircraft.

(2) None of the other AD’s listed in the log books met the requirement of FAR Part 43 that states that the effective dates of AD’s be listed when AD’s are addressed.


Is clear this guys does not give a dam of his job, now we are in contact with CEO of this small corporation, now i wont pay anything, all his work as become questionable. He miss those AD'S twice, what ensure me that he did the annual correctly?. I'm going full force not really care what other AP says, my own AP feels shame for this guy and he believe he should not be holding FAA cert. doing this crap.
 
skyflea said:
(1) There was no record of current Airworthiness Directives concerning AD 2005-18-12, concerning the propeller on this aircraft.

(2) None of the other AD’s listed in the log books met the requirement of FAR Part 43 that states that the effective dates of AD’s be listed when AD’s are addressed.


Is clear this guys does not give a dam of his job, now we are in contact with CEO of this small corporation, now i wont pay anything, all his work as become questionable. He miss those AD'S twice, what ensure me that he did the annual correctly?. I'm going full force not really care what other AP says, my own AP feels shame for this guy and he believe he should not be holding FAA cert. doing this crap.
Click to expand...

I agree with your mechanic, lame mechanics need to be driven from the industry.
 
SkyHog said:
LOL, really, Tom? You're saying an A&P that (from how I'm seeing the likely reality here) intentionally screwed a customer so that he could pocket some money off him later deserves to be spared an all out defensive maneuver that will likely result in justice for all parties?

Absolutely not. Burn him, take him to the FSDO, cost him his job, and THEN go after the money he owes you. When he's jobless, homeless, and probably family-less since they'll not going to support a cheating loser, he'll realize what he did wrong.

**** him.
Click to expand...

Nick, How do you know it was intentional?
Have you ever made a mistake?

If you break him how can you ever get any payment from him?

But when it is proven he did what you think, then yes I agree with you.
 
wandering thoughts, I wonder how much thought went into choosing this facility to do the pre-buy inspection and what requirements were given to the inspector?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top